Are unbelievers going to be saved in the future?

[MisterE]

Why do some passage state that all unbelievers are redeemed? Can you be redeemed and still go to Lake of Fire?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Eve was deceived when she sinned. I don't see that as self-centeredness. Sin is any violation of God's moral law. Eve did that.

Okay, I see your point, MisterE, but if God through Paul commands you the following, and you don't follow it completely, aren't you sinning?

1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they gave into the devil's lie that they could rise to God's level by running their own lives instead of accepting his guidance. That's the self-centeredness of sin that goes much deeper than transgressions of the moral law.

 

[MisterE]

Okay, I see your point, MisterE, but if God through Paul commands you the following, and you don't follow it completely, aren't you sinning?

1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they gave into the devil's lie that they could rise to God's level by running their own lives instead of accepting his guidance. That's the self-centeredness of sin that goes much deeper than transgressions of the moral law.

Yes, you are sinning. That which is not from faith is sin.

Here is a statement Paul makes that I think bears on our subject:
I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man; yet because I had acted in ignorance and unbelief, I was shown mercy. 1 Tim 1.13

Paul was ignorant of his violating God's moral law. God did not hold him accountable. I think Adam and Eve would fall under that same umbrella. Two things must be present for sin to occur:
1) Intent
2) Volition

it must be one's intent to violate one of God's moral laws, otherwise it is done in ignorance (such as Adam and Eve and Paul)
the person has to use his uninhibited volition rather than being coerced or deceived (this is why Paul was shown mercy since it was done in ignorance, in fact all people are shown mercy, Rm 10.32)

(my thoughts on the nuances of sin are still a work in progress. Any input would be appreciated.)

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Yes, you are sinning. That which is not from faith is sin.

Here is a statement Paul makes that I think bears on our subject:
I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man; yet because I had acted in ignorance and unbelief, I was shown mercy. 1 Tim 1.13

Paul was ignorant of his violating God's moral law. God did not hold him accountable. I think Adam and Eve would fall under that same umbrella. Two things must be present for sin to occur:
1) Intent
2) Volition

it must be one's intent to violate one of God's moral laws, otherwise it is done in ignorance (such as Adam and Eve and Paul)
the person has to use his uninhibited volition rather than being coerced or deceived (this is why Paul was shown mercy since it was done in ignorance, in fact all people are shown mercy, Rm 10.32)

(my thoughts on the nuances of sin are still a work in progress. Any input would be appreciated.)

MisterE, I submit that you are reading too much into the idea and commission of sin. Paul says that humans are without any excuse before their Creator-Judge when they have turned their backs on him in the face of his revelation of his great creative power shown in his amazing universe:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Even ignoring the Creator's "eternal power and divine nature" qualifies as sin, according to Paul. Thus, we're all guilty until faith in Jesus' atoning sacrifice takes away our guilt. That's Paul's point in Romans 1:18--3:21.

 

[GodsGrace]

MisterE, I submit that you are reading too much into the idea and commission of sin. Paul says that humans are without any excuse before their Creator-Judge when they have turned their backs on him in the face of his revelation of his great creative power shown in his amazing universe:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Even ignoring the Creator's "eternal power and divine nature" qualifies as sin, according to Paul. Thus, we're all guilty until faith in Jesus' atoning sacrifice takes away our guilt. That's Paul's point in Romans 1:18--3:21.

Am I not turning my back on God because HE wants me to?
Is this not what Calvinism teaches??

How does ANY verse in the bible have any real meaning when everything depends on what God has predestined for each one of us?

According to Calvin...if I ignore the Creator, it's because He desires me to.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Am I not turning my back on God because HE wants me to?
Is this not what Calvinism teaches??

How does ANY verse in the bible have any real meaning when everything depends on what God has predestined for each one of us?

According to Calvin...if I ignore the Creator, it's because He desires me to.

No, GodsGrace, of course not. God does NOT want us to turn our backs on him. If someone told you that's what Calvinism teaches, they are spreading malicious gossip.

God is never the source or cause of evil or sin; humans are. The Bible rightly doesn't blame God for any evil. According to the Apostle John, the three sources are the tempting world, the devil, and our own sinful natures.

However, God does ALLOW or PERMIT evil and sin to exist for the good purposes of blessing his own dearly-loved people in the words of Joseph with his brothers, who sold him into slavery:

Gen 50:18 His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.”
Gen 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Gen 50:21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

Thus, God has good plans for all events, but he is never responsible for evil and sin, whereas humans are completely responsible for their evil and sins. That's what Calvinism teaches, since it is what God's Word says.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why do some passage state that all unbelievers are redeemed? Can you be redeemed and still go to Lake of Fire?

Here is 2 Peter 2:1 ...

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Note that the Lord bought (redeemed) these false prophets and false teachers, even denying the Lord.

Read 2 Cor 5 and Rom 5.

Hello again, MisterE.

The reason Peter used this language is because he was talking about Gnostics, many of whom were people who initially turned to Christ and had gotten saved, but were then seduced into Gnostic heresy which led them entirely astray from Him in subsequent years.

I've posted several studies on 2nd Peter in the Pentecostal section if you are interested.

Blessings,
Hidden In Him

 

[GodsGrace]

No, GodsGrace, of course not. God does NOT want us to turn our backs on him. If someone told you that's what Calvinism teaches, they are spreading malicious gossip.

God is never the source or cause of evil or sin; humans are. The Bible rightly doesn't blame God for any evil. According to the Apostle John, the three sources are the tempting world, the devil, and our own sinful natures.

However, God does ALLOW or PERMIT evil and sin to exist for the good purposes of blessing his own dearly-loved people in the words of Joseph with his brothers, who sold him into slavery:

Gen 50:18 His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.”
Gen 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Gen 50:21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

Thus, God has good plans for all events, but he is never responsible for evil and sin, whereas humans are completely responsible for their evil and sins. That's what Calvinism teaches, since it is what God's Word says.

This is not a thread about Calvinism so I don't want to derail it.

There's a difference between God ALLOWING something to happen and God CAUSING something to happen.

Would you say that Calvinism is what John Calvin taught?

He taught that God causes everything that happens to a man...even the evil.
Sorry I cannot post his writings right now.

I believe it's in Book 3 of the Institutes.

This will have to wait till I get home.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

This is not a thread about Calvinism so I don't want to derail it.

There's a difference between God ALLOWING something to happen and God CAUSING something to happen.

Would you say that Calvinism is what John Calvin taught?

He taught that God causes everything that happens to a man...even the evil.
Sorry I cannot post his writings right now.

I believe it's in Book 3 of the Institutes.

This will have to wait till I get home.

I'm waiting for your further answer, GodsGrace. Please don't make an accusation without backing it up, which you failed to do here. Where, specifically with the context, does Calvin say that God causes evil? I spent a whole semester studying the Institutes and never saw that claim from John Calvin. Show me, or retract your claim, please.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm waiting for your further answer, GodsGrace. Please don't make an accusation without backing it up, which you failed to do here. Where, specifically with the context, does Calvin say that God causes evil? I spent a whole semester studying the Institutes and never saw that claim from John Calvin. Show me, or retract your claim, please.

Claim will not be retracted.
Not only Calvin but Reformed theologians/pastors/teachers teach that God causes evil.
Doug Wilson
John Piper
And others.

Will have to wait till I get home.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Claim will not be retracted.
Not only Calvin but Reformed theologians/pastors/teachers teach that God causes evil.
Doug Wilson
John Piper
And others.

Will have to wait till I get home.

Please don't judge Calvinism and John Calvin by some who have followed his teachings, GodsGrace. If you can't show me where John Calvin taught that God directly causes evil, please don't hang such an accusation on all of us Calvinists. Perhaps, some hyper-Calvinists have made that unbiblical claim, but by and large Reformed and Calvinist people say that God PERMITS evil but doesn't CAUSE it, a huge difference that lays the blame on humans and Satan instead, as Joseph says to his brothers about their evil actions (Gen 50:20) "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm waiting for your further answer, GodsGrace. Please don't make an accusation without backing it up, which you failed to do here. Where, specifically with the context, does Calvin say that God causes evil? I spent a whole semester studying the Institutes and never saw that claim from John Calvin. Show me, or retract your claim, please.

Hi
Sorry for delay.

I stated that the Reformed/Calvinist faith teaches that God predestinated everything...
even evil.
You called this an accusation.

Top theologians in the Reformed tradition agree with what I posted.

§This is what John Calvin taught:

2. That this distinction may be the more manifest, we must consider that the Providence of God, as taught in Scripture, is opposed to fortune and fortuitous causes. By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day--viz. that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried. If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death--all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered (Mt. 10:30), will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. Hence they are merely instruments, into which God constantly infuses what energy he sees meet, and turns and converts to any purpose at his pleasure.
The Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 2
God is deemed omnipotent, not because he can act though he may cease or be idle, or because by a general instinct he continues the order of nature previously appointed; but because, governing heaven and earth by his providence, he so overrules all things that nothing happens without his counsel. For when it is said in the Psalms, "He has done whatsoever he has pleased," (Ps. 115:3), the thing meant is his sure and deliberate purpose. It were insipid to interpret the Psalmist's words in philosophic fashion, to mean that God is the primary agent, because the beginning and cause of all motion. This rather is the solace of the faithful, in their adversity, that every thing which they endure is by the ordination and command of God, that they are under his hand. But if the government of God thus extends to all his works, it is a childish cavil to confine it to natural influx. Those moreover who confine the providence of God within narrow limits, as if he allowed all things to be borne along freely according to a perpetual law of nature, do not more defraud God of his glory than themselves of a most useful doctrine; for nothing were more wretched than man if he were exposed to all possible movements of the sky, the air, the earth, and the water
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 3
First, then, let the reader remember that the providence we mean is not one by which the Deity, sitting idly in heaven, looks on at what is taking place in the world, but one by which he, as it were, holds the helms and overrules all events.
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 4
,, but we hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things,--that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, he decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 8
From ligonier.org

Evil in God's Providential Rule | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

Ligonier Ministries, founded by R.C. Sproul, exists to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible.

learn.ligonier.org

John Piper

RC Sproul

I'm posting the following because Doug §Wilson states that UNLESS God caused tragedy to happen...it would have no meaning.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please don't judge Calvinism and John Calvin by some who have followed his teachings, GodsGrace. If you can't show me where John Calvin taught that God directly causes evil, please don't hang such an accusation on all of us Calvinists. Perhaps, some hyper-Calvinists have made that unbiblical claim, but by and large Reformed and Calvinist people say that God PERMITS evil but doesn't CAUSE it, a huge difference that lays the blame on humans and Satan instead, as Joseph says to his brothers about their evil actions (Gen 50:20) "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

A hyper Calvinist is a Calvinist.
No difference.

§There's a big difference between ALLOWING something to happen
and CAUSING it to happen.

Mainline Christianity believes God allows evil due to free will.
Since Calvinists do not believe in free will...there will have to be another explanation for evil acts.

That explanation is that God CAUSES all acts...even evil ones.....
which means God causes sin.

Yes. A huge misconception of God's character and nature.

You mention Genesis 50:20
Right. God USED the evil.
He didn't CAUSE it.

A Catholic must believe what Catholicism teaches.
A Calvinist must believe what Calvinism teaches.

Are we beginning new religions because we don't like what ours teaches??

 

[GodsGrace]

No, GodsGrace, of course not. God does NOT want us to turn our backs on him. If someone told you that's what Calvinism teaches, they are spreading malicious gossip.

God is never the source or cause of evil or sin; humans are. The Bible rightly doesn't blame God for any evil. According to the Apostle John, the three sources are the tempting world, the devil, and our own sinful natures.

However, God does ALLOW or PERMIT evil and sin to exist for the good purposes of blessing his own dearly-loved people in the words of Joseph with his brothers, who sold him into slavery:

Gen 50:18 His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.”
Gen 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Gen 50:21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

Thus, God has good plans for all events, but he is never responsible for evil and sin, whereas humans are completely responsible for their evil and sins. That's what Calvinism teaches, since it is what God's Word says.

I've stated this before but you tend to not reply to me...

HOW are humans "completely responsible" (your words) for their sins
IF
God determines the actions of each person?

How is this a just God?

Can we have a definition of JUSTICE?
Thanks.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Hi
Sorry for delay.

I stated that the Reformed/Calvinist faith teaches that God predestinated everything...
even evil.
You called this an accusation.

Top theologians in the Reformed tradition agree with what I posted.

§This is what John Calvin taught:

2. That this distinction may be the more manifest, we must consider that the Providence of God, as taught in Scripture, is opposed to fortune and fortuitous causes. By an erroneous opinion prevailing in all ages, an opinion almost universally prevailing in our own day--viz. that all things happen fortuitously, the true doctrine of Providence has not only been obscured, but almost buried. If one falls among robbers, or ravenous beasts; if a sudden gust of wind at sea causes shipwreck; if one is struck down by the fall of a house or a tree; if another, when wandering through desert paths, meets with deliverance; or, after being tossed by the waves, arrives in port, and makes some wondrous hair-breadth escape from death--all these occurrences, prosperous as well as adverse, carnal sense will attribute to fortune. But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered (Mt. 10:30), will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. Hence they are merely instruments, into which God constantly infuses what energy he sees meet, and turns and converts to any purpose at his pleasure.
The Institutes of the Christian Religion
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 2
God is deemed omnipotent, not because he can act though he may cease or be idle, or because by a general instinct he continues the order of nature previously appointed; but because, governing heaven and earth by his providence, he so overrules all things that nothing happens without his counsel. For when it is said in the Psalms, "He has done whatsoever he has pleased," (Ps. 115:3), the thing meant is his sure and deliberate purpose. It were insipid to interpret the Psalmist's words in philosophic fashion, to mean that God is the primary agent, because the beginning and cause of all motion. This rather is the solace of the faithful, in their adversity, that every thing which they endure is by the ordination and command of God, that they are under his hand. But if the government of God thus extends to all his works, it is a childish cavil to confine it to natural influx. Those moreover who confine the providence of God within narrow limits, as if he allowed all things to be borne along freely according to a perpetual law of nature, do not more defraud God of his glory than themselves of a most useful doctrine; for nothing were more wretched than man if he were exposed to all possible movements of the sky, the air, the earth, and the water
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 3
First, then, let the reader remember that the providence we mean is not one by which the Deity, sitting idly in heaven, looks on at what is taking place in the world, but one by which he, as it were, holds the helms and overrules all events.
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 4
,, but we hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things,--that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, he decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.
Book 1
Chapter 16
Paragraph 8
From ligonier.org

Evil in God's Providential Rule | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

Ligonier Ministries, founded by R.C. Sproul, exists to proclaim, teach, and defend the holiness of God in all its fullness to as many people as possible.

learn.ligonier.org

John Piper

RC Sproul

I'm posting the following because Doug §Wilson states that UNLESS God caused tragedy to happen...it would have no meaning.

Okay, GodsGrace, this translation of Calvin may obscure his meaning, but where, specifically, does John Calvin say that God directly causes evil? Providence means that God permits Satan and evil to exist and limits his actions as in Job 1 and 2 and Genesis 50:20 but that God doesn't directly cause evil to happen, or he would be responsible for it.

What do you believe the Bible says about the relationship between God and evil in the world? If you say that its not under his sovereignty, he is less than the all-powerful God. If you say that he causes it, then he's responsible for it, and that would make him less than a perfect God. What do you say, and on what Scriptures do you base your ideas?

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, GodsGrace, this translation of Calvin may obscure his meaning, but where, specifically, does John Calvin say that God directly causes evil? Providence means that God permits Satan and evil to exist and limits his actions as in Job 1 and 2 and Genesis 50:20 but that God doesn't directly cause evil to happen, or he would be responsible for it.

Goodness Bruce...
you really need more chapters?
There is no obscurity...this is what the Reformed/Calvinist faith teaches.


Here are more of Calvin's teachings:

17. With regard to the strife and war which Satan is said to wage with God, it must be understood with this qualification, that Satan cannot possibly do anything against the will and consent of God.
The Institutes of the Christian Religion
John Calvin
Book 1
Chapter 14
Paragrpah 17


I concede more—that thieves and murderers, and other evil-doers, are instruments of Divine Providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute the Judgments which he has resolved to inflict.
Book 1
Chapter 17
Paragraph 5
But when they call to mind that the devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are, in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how much soever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay, unless in so far as he commands; that they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,—
Book 1
Chapter 17
Paragraph 11
There are many more...
don't know how many you need.
If one wants to be defined as a Reformed/Calvinist believer...
he should believe what the Reformers/Calvinists believe.

What do you believe the Bible says about the relationship between God and evil in the world? If you say that its not under his sovereignty, he is less than the all-powerful God. If you say that he causes it, then he's responsible for it, and that would make him less than a perfect God. What do you say, and on what Scriptures do you base your ideas?

What I say Bruce,,,is that the Reformed faith has caused biblical problems due to incorrect theology.
One is the very question you're asking me....
Quite a conundrum.
Top Reformed theologians refer to this as a mystery.

God created evil.
God predestinated everything that happens.
But, to absolve God, we must say that God does not cause evil or He would have to be evil.

So,,,,it's a mystery. (according to the Reformed).

What do I believe and every other believer that is not Reformed?

God ALLOWS evil.
God USES evil.

This is shown in the very verse that you yourself have used:
Genesis 50:20
20“As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

God uses our actions to bring about His will.

The Reformed MUST necessarily put the onus on God for evil since they believe man has no free will.
If man has no free will, then it MUST be God that causes everything to happen.

Non-reformed believe that since man is free to make moral choices,,,,he himself causes much evil due to his sinful nature. It becomes unnecessary to "blame" God for evil.

And as to the sovereignty of God....
Which God is more sovereign?
The God that gives to man free will because He does not fear it...

or the God that is fearful of giving man free will....for whatever reason...
is He afraid of losing His sovereignty??