Are unbelievers going to be saved in the future?

[MisterE]

Why do some passage state that all unbelievers are redeemed? Can you be redeemed and still go to Lake of Fire?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Eve was deceived when she sinned. I don't see that as self-centeredness. Sin is any violation of God's moral law. Eve did that.

Okay, I see your point, MisterE, but if God through Paul commands you the following, and you don't follow it completely, aren't you sinning?

1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they gave into the devil's lie that they could rise to God's level by running their own lives instead of accepting his guidance. That's the self-centeredness of sin that goes much deeper than transgressions of the moral law.

 

[MisterE]

Okay, I see your point, MisterE, but if God through Paul commands you the following, and you don't follow it completely, aren't you sinning?

1Th 5:16 Rejoice always,
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing,
1Th 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

When Adam and Eve sinned, they gave into the devil's lie that they could rise to God's level by running their own lives instead of accepting his guidance. That's the self-centeredness of sin that goes much deeper than transgressions of the moral law.

Yes, you are sinning. That which is not from faith is sin.

Here is a statement Paul makes that I think bears on our subject:
I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man; yet because I had acted in ignorance and unbelief, I was shown mercy. 1 Tim 1.13

Paul was ignorant of his violating God's moral law. God did not hold him accountable. I think Adam and Eve would fall under that same umbrella. Two things must be present for sin to occur:
1) Intent
2) Volition

it must be one's intent to violate one of God's moral laws, otherwise it is done in ignorance (such as Adam and Eve and Paul)
the person has to use his uninhibited volition rather than being coerced or deceived (this is why Paul was shown mercy since it was done in ignorance, in fact all people are shown mercy, Rm 10.32)

(my thoughts on the nuances of sin are still a work in progress. Any input would be appreciated.)

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Yes, you are sinning. That which is not from faith is sin.

Here is a statement Paul makes that I think bears on our subject:
I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and a violent man; yet because I had acted in ignorance and unbelief, I was shown mercy. 1 Tim 1.13

Paul was ignorant of his violating God's moral law. God did not hold him accountable. I think Adam and Eve would fall under that same umbrella. Two things must be present for sin to occur:
1) Intent
2) Volition

it must be one's intent to violate one of God's moral laws, otherwise it is done in ignorance (such as Adam and Eve and Paul)
the person has to use his uninhibited volition rather than being coerced or deceived (this is why Paul was shown mercy since it was done in ignorance, in fact all people are shown mercy, Rm 10.32)

(my thoughts on the nuances of sin are still a work in progress. Any input would be appreciated.)

MisterE, I submit that you are reading too much into the idea and commission of sin. Paul says that humans are without any excuse before their Creator-Judge when they have turned their backs on him in the face of his revelation of his great creative power shown in his amazing universe:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Even ignoring the Creator's "eternal power and divine nature" qualifies as sin, according to Paul. Thus, we're all guilty until faith in Jesus' atoning sacrifice takes away our guilt. That's Paul's point in Romans 1:18--3:21.

 

[GodsGrace]

MisterE, I submit that you are reading too much into the idea and commission of sin. Paul says that humans are without any excuse before their Creator-Judge when they have turned their backs on him in the face of his revelation of his great creative power shown in his amazing universe:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Even ignoring the Creator's "eternal power and divine nature" qualifies as sin, according to Paul. Thus, we're all guilty until faith in Jesus' atoning sacrifice takes away our guilt. That's Paul's point in Romans 1:18--3:21.

Am I not turning my back on God because HE wants me to?
Is this not what Calvinism teaches??

How does ANY verse in the bible have any real meaning when everything depends on what God has predestined for each one of us?

According to Calvin...if I ignore the Creator, it's because He desires me to.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Am I not turning my back on God because HE wants me to?
Is this not what Calvinism teaches??

How does ANY verse in the bible have any real meaning when everything depends on what God has predestined for each one of us?

According to Calvin...if I ignore the Creator, it's because He desires me to.

No, GodsGrace, of course not. God does NOT want us to turn our backs on him. If someone told you that's what Calvinism teaches, they are spreading malicious gossip.

God is never the source or cause of evil or sin; humans are. The Bible rightly doesn't blame God for any evil. According to the Apostle John, the three sources are the tempting world, the devil, and our own sinful natures.

However, God does ALLOW or PERMIT evil and sin to exist for the good purposes of blessing his own dearly-loved people in the words of Joseph with his brothers, who sold him into slavery:

Gen 50:18 His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.”
Gen 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Gen 50:21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

Thus, God has good plans for all events, but he is never responsible for evil and sin, whereas humans are completely responsible for their evil and sins. That's what Calvinism teaches, since it is what God's Word says.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Why do some passage state that all unbelievers are redeemed? Can you be redeemed and still go to Lake of Fire?

Here is 2 Peter 2:1 ...

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Note that the Lord bought (redeemed) these false prophets and false teachers, even denying the Lord.

Read 2 Cor 5 and Rom 5.

Hello again, MisterE.

The reason Peter used this language is because he was talking about Gnostics, many of whom were people who initially turned to Christ and had gotten saved, but were then seduced into Gnostic heresy which led them entirely astray from Him in subsequent years.

I've posted several studies on 2nd Peter in the Pentecostal section if you are interested.

Blessings,
Hidden In Him

 

[GodsGrace]

No, GodsGrace, of course not. God does NOT want us to turn our backs on him. If someone told you that's what Calvinism teaches, they are spreading malicious gossip.

God is never the source or cause of evil or sin; humans are. The Bible rightly doesn't blame God for any evil. According to the Apostle John, the three sources are the tempting world, the devil, and our own sinful natures.

However, God does ALLOW or PERMIT evil and sin to exist for the good purposes of blessing his own dearly-loved people in the words of Joseph with his brothers, who sold him into slavery:

Gen 50:18 His brothers also came and fell down before him and said, “Behold, we are your servants.”
Gen 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Gen 50:21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.

Thus, God has good plans for all events, but he is never responsible for evil and sin, whereas humans are completely responsible for their evil and sins. That's what Calvinism teaches, since it is what God's Word says.

This is not a thread about Calvinism so I don't want to derail it.

There's a difference between God ALLOWING something to happen and God CAUSING something to happen.

Would you say that Calvinism is what John Calvin taught?

He taught that God causes everything that happens to a man...even the evil.
Sorry I cannot post his writings right now.

I believe it's in Book 3 of the Institutes.

This will have to wait till I get home.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

This is not a thread about Calvinism so I don't want to derail it.

There's a difference between God ALLOWING something to happen and God CAUSING something to happen.

Would you say that Calvinism is what John Calvin taught?

He taught that God causes everything that happens to a man...even the evil.
Sorry I cannot post his writings right now.

I believe it's in Book 3 of the Institutes.

This will have to wait till I get home.

I'm waiting for your further answer, GodsGrace. Please don't make an accusation without backing it up, which you failed to do here. Where, specifically with the context, does Calvin say that God causes evil? I spent a whole semester studying the Institutes and never saw that claim from John Calvin. Show me, or retract your claim, please.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm waiting for your further answer, GodsGrace. Please don't make an accusation without backing it up, which you failed to do here. Where, specifically with the context, does Calvin say that God causes evil? I spent a whole semester studying the Institutes and never saw that claim from John Calvin. Show me, or retract your claim, please.

Claim will not be retracted.
Not only Calvin but Reformed theologians/pastors/teachers teach that God causes evil.
Doug Wilson
John Piper
And others.

Will have to wait till I get home.