Are you sure it's the devil?

[follower of Christ]

The only logical and intelligent conclusion to an unbiased study of Corinthians is that there must be meetings in which anyone can speak, and "you can all prophesy one by one" and yet they are perfectly orderly!!

And anyone who has diligently studied the early Quaker meetings, Pentecostal meetings or the Wales revival knows that orderly meetings were the rule, not the exception.

Why are people having trouble with that? I honestly don't understand.

Rad

Ive never been to a church of any sort that would forbid someone genuinely exhibiting biblical prophesy.
Ive been to a LOT of charismatic churches who are entirely out of control, tho, and who NEVER try to follow the rules for tongues in the assembly.
When one can be presented that DOES follow the rules, I'll be more than happy to check it out.

 

[follower of Christ]

.....

 

[follower of Christ]

Notice it is when "all prohesy one by one," Paul says the unbelievers "fall down on their faces."

Not when one person is up there for an hour effectively claiming to be the arbiter of God's will.

Ironically, it seems God and the world both find most churches a huge yawn. When God truly had his way, the world flooded in and hundreds of thousands of lives were saved or changed. Franklin declared the Great Awakening "wonderful to see" while virtually every church leader dissed it.

Sometimes I think the Reformation has only begun and the church itself is the hindrance. The Catholics persecuted the Luthrens, who persecuted the Baptists, who persecuted the Holiness people who persecuted the Pentecostals, etc, etc.

When was the last time any church let people prophesy "one by one"? In the last major revival perhaps? Faithless men in control of the church agenda, claiming anything they don't experience can't be of God. Could that be the problem, then and now? It's fair to ask these questions, no?

I couldnt care less about persecution, friend....what *I* am concerned with is adherence to sound doctrine of Gods word.
That word that lays out VERY clear instruction as to how tongues and such gifts can be exhibited in the assembly.
Rolling around on the floor and thrashing about is NEVER shown by example or instructed in the New Testament.

Maybe I should flop around and jab a fork in my eye and claim its 'of God' ?
And if I do are you an authority to claim its not ?
You see how easily things can get out of control when we make claims that 'goddidit' when we dont want to be TESTED ???

*I* for one will TEST EVERY word, EVERY claim, EVERY act you folks profess against GODS word.
You dont have to like it friend, but you WILL be tested against that word. And if you are found to be in defiance of self control, then your thoughts and ideas will be rejected wholesale.


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[radorth]

It is unclear how prophesying one by one became rolling around and thrashing on the floor. I have engaged in the former but never once the latter.

I have diligently explained to you that "thrashing around on the floor" is not what Seymour did. Their meetings often included hours of silence. Yet people were free to speak as the Spirit led them and only in rare cases did anyone have to be disciplined. You need only study for yourself.

Your continued assertions that you follow the scripture and I don't would seem rather self-serving to those who have actually followed all of it, without any disorder occurring. You seem to have placed yourself in the position of finding heresy where none exists, by grossly misrepresenting my position and reading what I did not say, and that after many denials and sincere explanations on my part.

If you would kindly respond to each point with historical facts or quotes it would be helpful. I have carefully explained how we might have meetings as they did in the early church and indeed follow the whole of scripture. have I not?

Rad

 

[radorth]

Those of you who disagree with me, please answer the question, when was the last time your church, or any church you know of, let all "prophesy one by one"?

Is that somehow unscriptural too? This little conundrum was hardly created by me, but I have tried to answer it.

 

[follower of Christ]

It is unclear how prophesying one by one became rolling around and thrashing on the floor. I have engaged in the former but never once the latter.

I have diligently explained to you that "thrashing around on the floor" is not what Seymour did. Their meetings often included hours of silence. Yet people were free to speak as the Spirit led them and only in rare cases did anyone have to be disciplined. You need only study for yourself.

Your continued assertions that you follow the scripture and I don't would seem rather self-serving to those who have actually followed all of it, without any disorder occurring. You seem to have placed yourself in the position of finding heresy where none exists, by grossly misrepresenting my position and reading what I did not say, and that after many denials and sincere explanations on my part.

If you would kindly respond to each point with historical facts or quotes it would be helpful. I have carefully explained how we might have meetings as they did in the early church and indeed follow the whole of scripture. have I not?

Rad

We can do this as many times as you wish, friend but the FACT is that there are VERY Clear instructions for tongues and BEHAVIOR in the church.
When those instructions are ignored a person can make any godless tripe they want and claim some 'new' way that 'god' is supposedly guiding believers to behave.
Sorry, but *I* will obey the rules as they stand.

 

[follower of Christ]

Those of you who disagree with me, please answer the question, when was the last time your church, or any church you know of, let all "prophesy one by one"?

You seem to think it is a REQUIREMENT that anyone actually DOES prophesy...show us where it is and then we'll look at your question again.
I know of no church that Ive ever attended that would forbid that gift if it were genuine.

 

[follower of Christ]

Again, the fruit of the Spirit is SELF control. Against such there is no law.

But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
(Gal 5:22-23)

G1466
á¼ÂγκÃÂάÄεια
egkrateia
eng-krat'-i-ah
From G1468; self control (especially continence): - temperance.

 

[stranger]

I read from Charles Wesley's journal that it was the Calvinists who opposed him the most. At other times Charles fled as the crowd turned against him so I would image Whitefield would not have always observed 'the profound silence'. Perhaps most of the opposition occurred early and when the revival took hold the opposition vanished.

Stranger, you do know Whitefield held to many of Calvin's doctrines. He was more of a Calvinistic Methodist.

Hi Vic,

I don't know much about Whitefield - only that he was part of the revival with the Wesleys. I don't doubt that Whitfield held to many Calvinist doctrines. Perhaps the Calvinist were more accepting of Whitfield than they were of the Wesley brothers, but this doesn't give them a clean bill of health.

Do you find this hard to believe? My last three churches were: Reformed, Presbyterian and Free Presbyterian where Wesley's hymns echo to this day (in my opinion), as their highest moment of worship and praise to God.

take care

 

[radorth]

Again, the fruit of the Spirit is SELF control. Against such there is no law.

But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
(Gal 5:22-23)

Agreed. Now please address my points/questions with specific scripture, quotes and examples as I rather painstakenly did, I thought.

Rad

 

[follower of Christ]

Agreed. Now please address my points/questions with specific scripture, quotes and examples as I rather painstakenly did, I thought.

Rad

Thats sort of like telling me to respond to some ramblings of those early church 'fathers', friend.
Ive provided Gods word to support my case, that I dont feel to get caught up in some irrelevant rabbit trail and waste half my day doesnt negate that fact.

Scripture lays out VERY clear instruction and example for us to live and behave by.
Thats all I need to see and know.

 

[Relic]

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Dear follower of Christ,

I may be late in replying here because I see you guys have brought other discussion of doctrines into the topics. But I must say this so as no confusion is present in regard to your reply to my postings. I do not wish to bicker. I find it rather taxing and will not continue on with such. Just want to clarify and have no misunderstandings.

Please don't take my postings as if I believe it's okay for people to be dancing in giving praises and thanksgiving to the Lord God in their underwear. I don't think they should be, but I surely don't think that Paul's teachings and understandings ever negates the reason King David did what he did. And I don't think people today should make it a 'ritual' to dance and praise God in their underwear in a public place. David did not do it as a ritualistic practice. It was an uninhibited form of expression for a reason. Not an everyday occurrence.

And, please don't take my posting as if I believe sound doctrine isn't being utilized in the church IF someone chooses to express themselves more so than some others do in other churches. Some people believe that snake handling is in order with scripture , but I would not be inclined to participate in any such style of expression. Nope not me. It's okay for them, but not for me. I don't want to handle snakes and no where in scripture does it order me to do so, nor does it say I am to not handle any. So seems to me, we have a choice in how we want to conduct ourselves in choosing which the power of the Holy Spirit we have been given to express or perform miracle or wonders. Not all of us are the same, but that doesn't mean that IF I choose to not handle snakes or attend a church that does so that I am causing or they are causing division in the body. They are only a different part of the body, that does not mean they are whacked out or cooky. They are expressions none the less or more than anyone who prefers to worship and praise the Lord by just sitting still and doing no outward expressions. I'll not judge anyone in regard to how they are inspired by Holy Spirit to express praises and thanksgiving’s.

I think you may have used your example of the division of the Corinthians out of context to the scenario Paul was referring to. That division probably had little or nothing to do with what we are discussing here.
Note: The cause of the Corinthians division was most likely in regard to “the household of the woman named Chloe“ .

• 
  Chloe's people were slaves, freed persons, or both.
  
  also:
  
  CHLOE [ISBE]
  
  CHLOE - klo'-e (Chloe, "a tender shoot"): A woman, presumably a Christian, mentioned only in 1 Cor 1:11. She was a resident either of Corinth or of Ephesus. Paul had been informed by some of her household, probably Christian slaves, of the dissensions in the church at Corinth. Nothing more is known of her.

So then, the bickering was presumed (considering Corinthian culture and life style) to be over her household, not over how people expressed their giving of praise and thanksgiving in the congregation.

And, please don't take my posting as if it indicates there would be division of the body or no unity just because the branch of the congregation isn't exactly like yours or anyone else’s specific type of church.
Those people in the various other churches are equally yoked, and it is up to God to judge them whether they are transgressing the Holy Spirit in how they conduct their services or allow others to express or not allow them to express. Not all congregations will be exactly the same as if they are some borg-like robots who are all expressing in the same exact mannerisms. That doesn't mean any one or all of them are out of line with the principles or precepts, or doctrines as indicated in the bible for them to follow. God will let each person know in due time if they are in the wrong place. And, I believe that if anyone doesn't care for one particular style of worship expression, then they can join a church in which they are well suited and feel there is a God Holy purpose for you being there. There is no law that says we are not allowed to express ourselves within the confines of a congregation unless we have permission from the minister or board members who dictate it's time for this or it's time for that form of expression. Yes, there is a time and place for all manner of expression and disciplines, However, I believe God is a God that does not limited how expressions of praise and thanksgiving are to be given to Him as long as they are not transgressions against Holy Spirit.

Just because there are a variety of congregations it doesn't mean every other church that is not alike in how they are expressing to God are then out of line or order with Holy Spirit inspiration.
We are a varied people, different cultures, different styles, etc., and partly for that reason, we see a manifestation of a variety of congregations/churches.

I believe that everyone has a right to choose whatever church/congregation they want to join as long as it is not professing transgression against Holy Spirit. If a person chooses a conservative one or a holy roller one it's up to them. And let no man tell them it's a sin or out of line to worship and give praise and thanksgiving to God as the Holy Spirit has moved them to do so.

Pray that no man 'control' or cramp anyone's Holy Spirit inspired style of giving praise and honor, and thanksgiving to God.



.

 

[follower of Christ]

Relic, we are probably not going to agree.
I do not believe that scripture teaches us that its 'ok' for one group to believe this and another to believe that as far as doctrine goes.

 

[radorth]

Scripture lays out VERY clear instruction and example for us to live and behave by. Thats all I need to see and know.

Agreed. No need to keep repeating it as if those who disagree with you are not following the scripture in good conscience.