Arminianism and Calvinism

[PeterJens]

On this subject, what shocked me was
1. Up till 1600 or so, total inability to walk righteously was not a theological position
2. Total inability or original sin which cannot be resolved is thought by some to be sexual desire

Part of the total inability concept comes from dualism of the gnostics who believed the body physical
was innately evil and the spirit ultimately pure and holy.

In practise most believers do not follow this line of thinking, though the theologians well might.

 

[ezra]

my 2 cents when i got saved i had NO idea what reformed or Arminianism was. nor did i have a clue what eternal security was verses walk away from our salvation . i have been in forums where the 2 is debated (argued) every day . both sides has good points . neither side will admit it... i do lean toward Arminianism and yes i do believe in free will . ( which IS NOT picking the time or place when we get saved ! } we can resist the call to salvation . you will be miserable i can testify when the spirit draws He does not do it of force .on Calvinism the pos i almost agree with ..but i cant prove it so i call it a know so salvation :amen . besides when we get to heaven God not going to ask you your pedigree of theology/religion . if you have studied out the Church flavor you feel fits your doctrine . great just dont go around trying to prove your right everyone else is wrong on a side note there are things i disagree with on Pentecostals...BUT they way they worship .when the song service is going on standing clapping... sure wouldn't hurt if all Churches go into worship like that2. lol when i went had my colonoscopy they asked me my religious preference.. i said FORGIVEN

 

[ezra]

then are men saved?

NOT ALL MEN NO

 

[reba]

the thumbs was for your other post ezra

 

[JLB]

then are men saved?

The ones who believe are saved.

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


The point being that just because God draws or enables men to come to Christ, not all will be saved.

As in John 6, where some of His disciples that were drawn to Him, did in fact turn away from following Him.


JLB

 

[Cygnus]

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32 KJV

Well, one thing we know is that the bible doesn't teach universalism....so that would indicate all men has a different nuance.

 

[Cygnus]

When we use analogies to over rule the scriptures then we are in trouble of straying from the truth.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


The condition set for for everlasting life is to believe.

I would hope all the body of Christ can agree on that.

JLB

I would hope so also.

But, as I posted earlier John 6:65....seems to inform us God has to grant us the ability to come to Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

1. Up till 1600 or so, total inability to walk righteously was not a theological position
2. Total inability or original sin which cannot be resolved is thought by some to be sexual desire

Where did you get that "information"?
Citations please.

And, if "total inability to walk righteously was not a theological position" for 1600 years then it was not a theological position for the apostles who wrote the NT and taught the next generation of believers.

It wasn't a "theological position" until someone invented it.

 

[JLB]

I would hope so also.

But, as I posted earlier John 6:65....seems to inform us God has to grant us the ability to come to Christ.

What it plainly teaches is coming to Christ is no garuantee of salvation.

We see the disciples who came to him a followed Him for years, did in fact turn away from Him.


JLB

 

[ezra]

What it plainly teaches is coming to Christ is no garuantee of salvation.

John 6:37

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; {and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.}” if we come to Him we are guaranteed salvation
Matthew 11:28-29King James Version (KJV)
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 

[Jim Parker]

What it plainly teaches is coming to Christ is no garuantee of salvation.
We see the disciples who came to him a followed Him for years, did in fact turn away from Him.
JLB

Word

 

[ezra]

Word

what does this say if we come to him? John 6:37

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; {and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.}” if we come to Him we are guaranteed salvation scripture

 

[artful horizon]

Word

No, that's not in the word.

John 6:37

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; {and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.}” if we come to Him we are guaranteed salvation
Matthew 11:28-29King James Version (KJV)
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Eternal life through Salvation in Jesus Christ. Only the saved enter Heaven. How does that become a debate?

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.” John 10:27-30

John 5:12-13

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.



John 5:24
Jude 1:24
Romans 8:16
Hebrews 7:25
John 10:29
Ephesians 4:30
John 6:47
Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[MCoop]

Word

So what you both agree to is that coming to Christ is no guarantee of eternal life?

 

[Jim Parker]

No, that's not in the word. Eternal life through Salvation in Jesus Christ. Only the saved enter Heaven.

I didn't say anything different.

How does that become a debate?

Nobody's debating that.
JLB said "What it plainly teaches is coming to Christ is no garuantee of salvation.
We see the disciples who came to him a followed Him for years, did in fact turn away from Him."
Those statements are true.

iakov the fool

 

[artful horizon]

I didn't say anything different.

Why did you copy my statement to ezra and add it to the one I wrote to you?

Nobody's debating that.
JLB said "What it plainly teaches is coming to Christ is no garuantee of salvation.
We see the disciples who came to him a followed Him for years, did in fact turn away from Him."
Those statements are true.

iakov the fool

They are debating when they think coming to Christ is no guarantee of Salvation.

 

[Jim Parker]

So what you both agree to is that coming to Christ is no guarantee of eternal life?

Coming to Christ is step one.
Staying with Christ is step two.
Obeying Christ is step three.
All three are necessary for eternal life.
And, no, persevering and doing His will are not "automatic." It will take dedication and effort.

Luk 6:46-48 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.https://www.blueletterbible.org/nkjv/luk/6/49/s_979049
But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

 

[Papyrus_dust]

saved by grace not by law , the sequel.
Romans 6:23
2 Timothy 2:19

 

[Jim Parker]

Why did you copy my statement to ezra and add it to the one I wrote to you?

??????

They are debating when they think coming to Christ is no guarantee of Salvation.

????
I think you've lost track of who said what to whom.

 

[artful horizon]

??????

????
I think you've lost track of who said what to whom.

You lost track. I was asking how come. Never mind.