At the revelation of Jesus Christ...

[Osgiliath]

A couple of really good posts there smalls .


The spiritual significance of "types" is what God want us to see with our spiritual eyes, yet the masses are focused on the physical [literal] "examples" only:

1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come."

This is a very significant point you made here:

Originally posted by smaller,

We are all in a sense, in the flesh, the FIRST BORN, even of EGYPT, who are in fact on the execution schedule. It's just a question of TIME.

True indeed. This all relates to the same 'Old Man' of sin who reigns on the throne within us, who is on the execution schedule. This in fact is the message of Salvation, and is the primary theme throughout the entire Word of God.


Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Romans 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."


"Esau" is not that evil person who has nothing to do with us. Esau [the FIRSTBORN] is who we are first.

That is why those who were 'first': Cain, Ishmael, Esau, King Saul and physical Israel, are all typical of the "first Adam within us" (the man of sin).


These men all come first within us and must be destroyed within us.


"Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" is a statement about how God feels about the "first man Adam," "chief of sinners," "Prodigal Son," within us. That part of us must be destroyed, so that a new man can replace that "first Adam," the 'man of sin.'


Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one MAN SIN entered the world"



This divine principle which is followed throughout the entire Word of God, which is: That which is first is NOT spiritual, but that which is natural is first, and afterward that which is spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN is of the earth, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven."


The "natural" is FIRST, and AFTERWARD the spiritual. That is the whole lesson behind:

• Able replacing Cain;
• Isaac replacing Ishmael;
• Jacob replacing Esau;
• Rachel replacing Leah;
• David replacing King Saul;
• Israel (spiritual) replacing Israel (natural);
• The spiritual temple replacing the physical temple;
• etc.

Paul said,

1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I AM CHIEF."

Paul is honest enough to admit he is "the CHIEF OF SINNERS!" In fact, we ALL are.

Most of Christendom approaches God's Word with the mindset of 'I am Abel, but I am not Cain. I would never under any circumstance kill my brother.'
Most of Christendom reads of the events surrounding the crucifixion of our Lord and says; 'I might very well be Peter, but I certainly am not Judas.' But, until we have been given eyes that see both Cain and Judas within our own sinful flesh (the MAN OF SIN), we can never say with Paul, "I am CHIEF of sinners."

 

[smaller]

A couple of really good posts there smalls .

The spiritual significance of "types" is what God want us to see with our spiritual eyes, yet the masses are focused on the physical [literal] "examples" only:

1 Corinthians 10:11 "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come."

This is a very significant point you made here:
True indeed. This all relates to the same 'Old Man' of sin who reigns on the throne within us, who is on the execution schedule. This in fact is the message of Salvation, and is the primary theme throughout the entire Word of God.

Romans 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Romans 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

"Esau" is not that evil person who has nothing to do with us. Esau [the FIRSTBORN] is who we are first.

Bravo, just BRAVO Os. A spiritual KISS from me to you on that one!

No, it was not about Esau whatsoever.

I will say with this matter that there is a further traverse that you and I may walk into, and I have reserved that matter for another time.

I will say however that I consider ESAU was saved, regardless. Jacob did see upon him, the FACE of GOD.

Jacob saw his brother truthfully, as a picture of his own internal adversity, which Jacob himself represents to us.

Jacob came before his father a what? That's right. A DECEIVER. Even as A LIAR. Dressed and draped in his brothers GOAT SKINS even.

And what did Jacob then receive? The ALL AND ONLY PRIMARY importance for any of us. When we come before OUR MAKER in TRUTH we too are BLESSED.

Even in Jacobs name we see 'the wrestling' or 'the contender' do we not?

When God Himself prevails in us and for us, we are then ISRAEL in whom God Prevails.

But there are certain paths of understandings that have to be 'in the temple' so to speak to come in to these matters. Others remain locked out, as Esau did, by Gods Own Very Purposeful Designs and Intentions. And certainly NOT to the denigration of Esau as a singularly viewed person of the flesh who was not saved. That sight only brands such seer's as 'not seeing' whatsoever.

That is why those who were 'first': Cain, Ishmael, Esau, King Saul and physical Israel, are all typical of the "first Adam within us" (the man of sin).

Indeed again. There are vast amounts of this same showing throughout the text, beginning to end. Even as a first Adam to The Last Adam.

There is in fact a FLESHLY RULER over every last person. Those who are 'called out' come out from under that RULE and RULER. As a factual matter that ruler isn't even them as believers. But most still struggle on that line.

When we come to THE ROCK we are in effect, broken in PIECES, two. The former will also as a fact be GROUND TO POWDER or DUST.

Are these all then fanciful spiritualizings? Uh, no. It is quite a fearful process for any who become 'engaged' in these matters. The world quickly turns into a most ugly environment for these. This I know. And the ugly part starts from matters of personal engagements as God does quite busily do a hatchet job with the FIREY TWO EDGED SWORD. For me that SWORD is very real, and on both edges. Not a matter of 'toying around' with fanciful spiritual nonsense. But A LIVING ENGAGEMENT.

These men all come first within us and must be destroyed within us.

Uh huh. As Pogo of cartoon fame stated, 'we met the enemy and he is US.'

"Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" is a statement about how God feels about the "first man Adam," "chief of sinners," "Prodigal Son," within us. That part of us must be destroyed, so that a new man can replace that "first Adam," the 'man of sin.'

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one MAN SIN entered the world"

This divine principle which is followed throughout the entire Word of God, which is: That which is first is NOT spiritual, but that which is natural is first, and afterward that which is spiritual.

And yes again. It is interesting that two individuals who have never met each others prior to here come into IDENTICAL understandings.

We may pick a little at each others flesh from time to time, but it is a BENEFICIAL practice. A form of sharpening. Because we have had these matters 'inflicted' upon ourselves, even as MARY for example:

Luke 2:35
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Now, how ignorant are certain 'sects' in their views of Mary? Quite thoroughly BLIND.

1 Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was NOT FIRST which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.
1 Corinthians 15:47 The FIRST MAN is of the earth, earthy: the SECOND MAN is the Lord from heaven."

The "natural" is FIRST, and AFTERWARD the spiritual. That is the whole lesson behind:

• Able replacing Cain;
• Isaac replacing Ishmael;
• Jacob replacing Esau;
• Rachel replacing Leah;
• David replacing King Saul;
• Israel (spiritual) replacing Israel (natural);
• The spiritual temple replacing the physical temple;
• etc

And I might add Ephraim, the younger being chosen over Mannaseh, and Eliezer over Gershom and could add many other 'names' to that same list.

Peter over Cephas, Paul over Saul...and on and on it goes.

Paul said,

1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I AM CHIEF."

Paul is honest enough to admit he is "the CHIEF OF SINNERS!" In fact, we ALL are.

Undoubtedly, though I might hesitate to make a greater claim than Paul...;) As much as I might like to fancy myself greater in that way...;)

There is in fact a Divine Principle that comes directly into play in these matters for those called in. The enemy does come in 'like' a flood and the 'whole world' and all it's 'men' do in fact hate us quite thoroughly.

In fact you and I see this practice nearly everywhere with other believers, do we not? ;)

Most of Christendom approaches God's Word with the mindset of 'I am Abel, but I am not Cain. I would never under any circumstance kill my brother.'
Most of Christendom reads of the events surrounding the crucifixion of our Lord and says; 'I might very well be Peter, but I certainly am not Judas.' But, until we have been given eyes that see both Cain and Judas within our own sinful flesh (the MAN OF SIN), we can never say with Paul, "I am CHIEF of sinners."

I also believe Judas was saved, jus so ya know. IN fact if one listens closely they can even hear him speak prior to birth in Psalm 41. His 'role' was in effect very much PRE-determined:

4 I said, Lord, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.
5 Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die, and his name perish?
6 And if he come to see me, he speaketh vanity: his heart gathereth iniquity to itself; when he goeth abroad, he telleth it.
7 All that hate me whisper together against me: against me do they devise my hurt.
8 An evil disease, say they, cleaveth fast unto him: and now that he lieth he shall rise up no more.

That is what 'the commoner' will say of Judas, even as said by same. Even in advance of the events.

But of course that's just what I happen to see.

The 'roles' that each individual of THE BODY have were written in ADVANCE by THE HAND OF GOD and each member has been, is and will be Divinely Crafted and Perfectly FITTED by His Perfect Hands.

Added: and just as the TEMPLE COMPONENTS of the RICH MAN, Solomon, were 'crafted' away from the actual TEMPLE CONSTRUCTION SITE, so is this present earth to each of us.

There won't be any crying or wailing involved at the final site.

Only GLORY.

s

 

[Eventide]

Lots of words to say very little.. and the Apostle to the circumcision makes it very clear that these are the scoffers.. those who outright DENY the word of God and deny the promise of His coming..

It's no wonder.. they also claim that there is SIN in CHRIST.. and that the man of sin sits within the body of CHRIST..

What else might we expect from those who think so lowly of the Lord Jesus Christ..?

IF I taught this nonsense... I don't think that I'd want the LORD to come either..

Sad truths... and what's worse is that the simple truth of the word of God will be mocked at and scoffed at to no end..

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Eventide,

We ain't seen nothing yet.. and there's infinitely more to come when the Infinite One comes in His glory in that Day, the Day of the LORD... which shall come as a thief in the night and as travail upon a woman with child.

Who is Christ? This sounds like a silly rhetorical question, but I assure you, it is not. Who is Christ? You speak of Him "coming in His Glory," but exactly WHO is coming? Is He an individual disembodied Spirit somewhere "out there?"

Maybe I should ask you this way: Who is "The Christ?"



Look at these verses:

Ephesians 1:22 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all."


Those two verses tell us that it is "the church which is His body" which is "the fullness of Him that fills all in all". It is "through our offenses that Christ was delivered up, and it is through our justification that He was raised from the dead." The King James has the word "for our..." but the Greek is 'dia' and it should be translated as 'through' and not 'for'.

Romans 4:25 "Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

The church which is His body is what God had planned "before the world began" to fill Christ, who in turn would fill up His Father who will be all in all.


Here is how Christ tells us this Truth:

John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

And Paul to tells us:

2 Corinthians 5:16 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more."


We are in Christ, and Christ is in His Father. Thereby we are "the fullness of Him [Christ] who fills Him [the Father] who is all in all."

Ephesians 1:22 "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Ephesians 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all."


Here it is again:

1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he [the Father] saith all things are put under him [Christ], it is manifest that he [the Father] is excepted, which did put all things under him [Christ].
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him [Christ], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [the Father] that put all things under him [Christ], that God [the Father] may be ALL IN ALL."


This is all an explanation of these words:

John 14:20 "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."


'How can we be in Christ if Christ is in us?' Christ and His Father have both taken up their abode within us, while we have, at the same time, taken up our abode in them.

Christ's body is Jesus Himself. That is the way Jesus of Nazareth looks upon us, if we really are in Him. Here are His own words to that effect:

Acts 22:8 "And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest."


What does this tell us? It tells us that our flesh IS Christ's flesh as "Jesus of Nazareth", and as He is so are we. We are all "in the flesh", yet we "know no man after the flesh". Instead we know them all as Christ Himself.


Matthew 25:40 "And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

John says the same thing:

1 John 5:1 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."

You and I are "begotten of Him", and if we deny that, then we are denying that we know Him. We are "His flesh and His bones," as well as being His "SPIRITUAL HOUSE"




Do you understand this Eventide? Who exactly are you waiting for?


Ephesians 5:30 "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones."

1 Peter 2:5 "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."




If WE ARE THE TEMPLE, what other options are there as far as WHERE the man of sin can sit?


2 Corinthians 6:16 "And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For YOU ARE the temple of the living God."


1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that YOU ARE the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 


1 Corinthians 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God IS HOLY, which temple YOU ARE."


 

[smaller]

Since none have been moved into bringing in their 'long knives' to stick in me yet, will sum up a few notes about MARTYRdom and ANTI-Pas from Rev. 2:

Rev. 2:
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

I would venture that the number of believers over the centuries who take the above matters personally in this present world would be very few in number. Such is the fate of the remnant. They will see matters that others are compelled to immediately discard as being personally applicable.

Yet, this is how the PROPHETS themselves SAW. Yes, even being SAWN in half, as was Isaiah in the physical. But there was a much deeper DIVISION that was brought into that particular martyr that he was brought to the ALTAR to SEE for himself:

Isaiah 6:5
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Revelation is not a pleasant matter, personally.

The writer of Proverbs saw the IDENTICAL matter:

Proverbs 5:14
I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly.

Not the congregation. "I."

Anti-PAS. The faithful martyr.

Antipas = contracted for a compound of 473 and a derivative of 3962

473: 'in the room of'

1. over against, opposite to, before
2. for, instead of, in place of (something)
   1. instead of
   2. for
   3. for that, because
   4. wherefore, for this cause

3962: both FATHER as God and father as a 'fleshly father'


You see Antipas dwelt where SATAN's SEAT is, that is IN HIS FLESH. He was in this way both FOR and AGAINST the FATHER. And Antipas maintained a similar relationship with SATAN. Against as a child of God, yet FOR as a child of the flesh.



A partial sight on 'Antipas.' Faithful witnesses carry these matters forth PERSONALLY.


There is in effect a BEHEADING in the Spiritual sense that eventually transpires. Believers are BEHEADED from our 'father of the flesh.' That would be the THOUGHTS OF SATAN therein, up there in that mountain top you call A HEAD where 'every thought' is to be TAKEN CAPTIVE to the WORDS of THE LION OF JUDAH, the RULER of the BODY, spiritual. We 'lose' our own heads in this process, or at least what we 'perceive' ourselves to be, which perception becomes a little more vivid when 'the other player' is put on the table.


Matters of Armageddon and Gog, Magog, etc are all similitudes of these same matters.


No, there will be no 200 million man army over there in the middle east gathered around some brick and mortar temple in Jerusalem. zzzzzzzzzzz


The man of the Gergasenes had 12,000 MEN OF SIN ruling on top of his MOUNTain.



So strong in fact that other men of the flesh could not constrain him, not even with chains.


s

 

[smaller]

Lots of words to say very little.. and the Apostle to the circumcision makes it very clear that these are the scoffers.. those who outright DENY the word of God and deny the promise of His coming..

It's no wonder.. they also claim that there is SIN in CHRIST.. and that the man of sin sits within the body of CHRIST..

What else might we expect from those who think so lowly of the Lord Jesus Christ..?

IF I taught this nonsense... I don't think that I'd want the LORD to come either..

Sad truths... and what's worse is that the simple truth of the word of God will be mocked at and scoffed at to no end..

We certainly would not make a request of such believers to speak TRUTHFULLY now would we.

No. Such are SINLESS presently.

And they will be standing around waiting for all the unbelieving sinners to be bumped off.

lol

s

 

[Eventide]

Who is Christ? This sounds like a silly rhetorical question, but I assure you, it is not. Who is Christ? You speak of Him "coming in His Glory," but exactly WHO is coming? Is He an individual disembodied Spirit somewhere "out there?"

Why do you say disembodied ? Do you also deny that He rose from the dead physically.. having flesh and bone..?

 

[Eventide]

We certainly would not make a request of such believers to speak TRUTHFULLY now would we.

No. Such are SINLESS presently.

Unless you also deny the gospel of God concerning His Son and that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the scriptures..

I won't expect to hear a peep out of you concerning that side of the ledger.. you're apparently obsessed with attributing the man of SIN to the body of CHRIST.

 

[smaller]

Unless you also deny the gospel of God concerning His Son and that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS according to the scriptures..

I won't expect to hear a peep out of you concerning that side of the ledger.. you're apparently obsessed with attributing the man of SIN to the body of CHRIST.

You expect the REVELATION but do not see 'the hindrance?'

Such will see upon departure from their 'flesh prison.'

s

 

[Eventide]

If WE ARE THE TEMPLE, what other options are there as far as WHERE the man of sin can sit?

Revelation 11, within the context of the things which shall be hereafter... speaks of the temple.. which is going to exist in the end times.. because Israel is still waiting for their Messiah to come.. in that Day.. the Day of the Lord.. the Day of Jesus Christ..

Now I'm sure that Revelation 11 will all be spiritualized into the here and now.. although it's clearly within the context of the things which shall be hereafter.

 

[Eventide]

I simply expect the reality of the scriptures to happen.. and don't confound the things which are with the things which shall be hereafter.

 

[Eventide]

Once again imo... much of this stems from ignoring the mystery pertaining to Israel.. and their being DELIVERED in the time of the end..

 

[Eventide]

Also notice that the scoffers obviously will not speak of the things which shall be hereafter.. because they're stuck in the here and now.. and can't see the word of God speaking with miraculous precision in that realm as well.. nope.. it's either all about the past or the present.. but God forbid He speak of things to come in the future.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Eventide,

Once again imo... much of this stems from ignoring the mystery pertaining to Israel.. and their being DELIVERED in the time of the end.

Who is Israel?

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Just as with the Temple, are we just going to ignore these Scriptures as well? Are you going to address any Scripture? Do you have any use for the Word of God?


And when exactly (in Scripture), will "ISRAEL" be delivered?

 

[Eventide]

Jacob wrestled with God all night...

Who is Israel?

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Just as with the Temple, are we just going to ignore these Scriptures as well? Are you going to address any Scripture? Do you have any use for the Word of God?


And when exactly (in Scripture), will "ISRAEL" be delivered?

This is basic Os..

JACOB is Israel.. His TWELVE SONS... this is why there are twelve tribes.. and Matthew teaches us that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits upon the throne of His glory.. that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones.. and that they shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel.. Luke 22 affirms the same thing..

This is perhaps one of the largest stumblingblocks in Christendom today.. not understanding the distinction between the earthly entity known as Israel as compared to the heavenly entity known as the church of God.

This is why end times are so confusing to a lot of people.. because they can't see the difference.. and what's worse.. they ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel.. and how that they're blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in..

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Eventide,

JACOB is Israel.. His TWELVE SONS... this is why there are twelve tribes.. and Matthew teaches us that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits upon the throne of His glory.. that His Apostles will also sit upon twelve thrones.. and that they shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel.. Luke 22 affirms the same thing..

This is perhaps one of the largest stumblingblocks in Christendom today.. not understanding the distinction between the earthly entity known as Israel as compared to the heavenly entity known as the church of God.

This is why end times are so confusing to a lot of people.. because they can't see the difference.. and what's worse.. they ignore the mystery pertaining to Israel.. and how that they're blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.

So, what you are saying is everything Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit concerning Israel and the Temple means absolutely nothing. That is indeed what you are saying, whether you know it or not (re-read your post).



Look at this:

2 Corinthians 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for you are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."


In verse 18 above, Paul is quoting Leviticus 26:12 as if it is a promise to converted Gentile Corinthians:

Leviticus 26:12 "And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people."


Like me before you, you cannot accept the fact that God has but one Israel, one Jacob, one Judah and one Jerusalem. He does not have a physical and a spiritual Jew or Israelite. He has but one seed. The promises above are only for those in Christ. ALL (of ANY ethnicity) who are not in Christ are the "son of the bondwoman" and "will not be made heir with the son of the freewoman" - contrary to what those who still "think in the flesh," believe:


Galatians 4:28 "Now WE, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Galatians 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman [Hagar] and her son [Ishmael]: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."


Many are caught off guard by this because their mind immediately thinks "Physical Israel" when they see "Isaac" - because "biologically speaking" physical Israel is through Isaac. However, Isaac NOW represents THOSE IN CHRIST. Isaac represents those who are "born of the Spirit" - whereas the son [Ishmael] of the bondwoman [Hagar] represents those "of the flesh" who are NOT IN CHRIST.

Physical lineage means NOTHING here. There are only TWO options: those who are IN CHRIST (of THE SPIRIT = Isaac), and those who are NOT IN CHRIST (of THE FLESH = Ishmael, son of the bondwoman). Physical pedigree means nothing. ZERO.


The whole point of this 4th chapter of Galatians, the whole point of Romans 9, is that "the bondwoman and her son are 'cast out'" and will "not be heir with the son of the freewoman."


Yet many still insist:

• "I see the Deliverer being the body of Christ with the rod of iron manifesting and setting up the Kingdom of God on earth. At that point the body of Christ will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; Jacob being the reunited 12 tribes (Judah + Israel). At that point the body of Christ will turn away ungodliness from Jacob."

No, 'at that point' the son of the bondwoman will not be made heir with God's elect (firstfruits) who are 'at that point' "the commonwealth of Israel," as stated in Ephesians 2:


Ephesians 2:16 "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."

Paul said:

Galatians 4:30 "The son of the bondwoman shall NOT be made heir with the son of the free woman.
Galatians 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."


Jerusalem that now is (physical Jerusalem - as well as ALL who are NOT IN CHRIST), IS the son of the bondwoman:


Galatians 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem WHICH NOW IS, and is in bondage with her children.
Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem WHICH IS ABOVE is free, which is the mother of us all."


So "Jerusalem which now is" is no more Jerusalem than the children of the flesh are of Abraham; or a Jew which is one outwardly is a Jew.


Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children OF THE FLESH [ISHMAEL - the son of the bondwoman], these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."


Again, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with a physical pedigree (see above); it is only given to the "overcomers" in Christ.


Galatians 3 makes it abundantly clear that Abraham is not the true "father of the faithful" at all, but Christ is the true 'Abraham' and the true "father of the faithful."

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."


Revelation 2:26 "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations."


Power over the nations is not for people with a certain physical pedigree; it is only given to the "overcomers" in Christ.


Christ said:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing."


Physical pedigree, race, ethnicity, etc. means NOTHING. The flesh, biological nature, is irrelevant to God!



There are only TWO PEOPLE that exist in the world:

• 1. the FIRST MAN ADAM (flesh - ISHMAEL - SELF) [the SELF is the Man of Sin]
  
• 2. the SECOND MAN ADAM (spirit - ISAAC - CHRIST)

A person is either in one, or the other - THAT'S IT!


Romans 2:28 "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

 

[Osgiliath]

@smaller - excellent post #185.


I'll get back to you after the dreaded gym. :whip:bounceball2

 

[Eventide]

So, what you are saying is everything Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit concerning Israel and the Temple means absolutely nothing. That is indeed what you are saying, whether you know it or not (re-read your post).

Think whatever you wish Os.. I've answered your questions and this is all you can come back with.. I find it very telling that after I've answered your questions that you just move on as if nothing was even said..

What about the disembodied Christ you spoke of..?

How about the Temple in Revelation 11..

How about the twelve Apostles of the Lamb sitting upon twelve thrones in the regeneration..?

EDITED

 

[Stormcrow]

"What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?":

The end of the age was the end of the Mosaic Age: the end of that which was about to become obsolete according to the writer of Hebrews.

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready [eggus: near, at hand] to disappear. Hebrews 8:13 (NASB)

The Old Covenant was abrogated by the New; the Mosaic Age swept away in 70 AD when the Messianic Age fully replaced it!

The New Testament was written during this time between the covenants, while the Old (Law) was still in effect but the New was growing. This is what the parable of the wheat and tares is exactly about!

Those who continue to look forward to the fulfillment of Christ's kingdom here on earth are carnally minded and utterly incapable of understanding what Christ was saying to His disciples.

One more thing:

That word "coming" (parousia) in Matthew 24 is better translated "presence."

And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence [parousia], and of the full end of the age?' Matthew 24:3 (YLT)

The sign of His presence was the presence of the legions of Rome surrounding Jerusalem, which He used to judge the city and her people just as God had done using the armies of Assyria and Babylon on His enemies in the OT:

The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. Isaiah 19:1 (NASB)

Now, compare that to the manner in which Christ was to come (be present):

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they [not you!] will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (NKJV)

I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land [Judah] was a wilderness, And all its cities were broken down At the presence of the LORD, By His fierce anger. Jeremiah 4:26 (NKJV)

Christ's presence came with the legions of Rome! It's utterly absurd to try to reason around the fact that Jesus said Jerusalem would be desolated before that generation had passed because it rejected Him, then 40 years later it was destroyed just as He said it would be!

Every "end time" prophecy He spoke was fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem which swept away the last, remaining vestiges of the Mosaic Covenant!

He literally said "all these things would take place" before that generation had passed; not some of them: ALL OF THEM! That includes the resurrection, which He placed in conjunction with the "end of the age!"

Now, either Jesus Christ did not know what He was talking about or futurists don't. Given futurism's pathetic track record for accurately predicting anything, I'll put my money on Jesus Christ 10 out of 10 times!

If I'm a heretic for refusing to accept man made creeds, which are nothing more than statements of faith not fact, what does that make those who refuse to accept the words of Jesus Christ Himself?


Futurism has no more place at the table as a serious doctrine, because it cannot be supported by any serious or rational understanding of Christ's own words.

 

[Stormcrow]

At least we have hope.. you don't have anything.. that's for sure..

You don't know anything about me except that which I post here, so your post is not only personal and hateful, it's ignorant.