At what point are sins removed?

[Cnkw3]

An alien sinner who joins him/herself to the Covenant, confesses their sins, begs for mercy, and repents and wants to follow and keep the Commandments. Is there a difference?

Obedience is obedience to God's Commandments. This is what Jesus taught too.

The NT NEVER tells an alien sinner to confess their sins and beg for mercy. The NT commandments about how to remove sins is pretty clear.

I will give an analogy of a graduation ceremony. You pass all your subjects, you are now a candidate to take part in the graduation ceremony where you will be given your certificate/testamur.

Passing your subjects = believe and repent

I disagree. They are all subjects.....Hear believe repent confess and baptism. Baptism is no more important then any of the others.

graduation ceremony = Baptism

baptism in water is no more important than belief or repentance. They all work together. Just because the Baptist like to have some baptism service some 3 weeks after someone came forward and confessed and said some prayer doesn’t make it right. Everyone detailed in the NT was baptized “immediately”! There was no “ceremony”. This idea is NOT Biblical.

receiving the certificate/testamur = receiving the Holy Spirit

I disagree. Just to play along with your story....the certificate is the removal of your sins and your name now being written in the lambs book of life. You don’t get your name in until AFTER the conclusion of all of your subjects. If you fail one of your subjects you won’t be recorded in the book as a graduate.

What if you broke your leg and can't make it to the graduation ceremony? What if you live in a desert and there just isn't enough water to immerse yourself?

Can’t be baptized with a broke leg?
If you “live” in the dessert then you must have enough water to survive. Do you take baths? Im sure you can scrounge up enough water for a simple immersion.

Have you believed and repented [Passing your subjects]? Yes.

You haven’t finished all your subjects.

Will you still receive the Holy Spirit [certificate/testamur]? Yes

Where is anybody promised....the Holy Spirit?
The promise by Peter was.....you shall receive the “GIFT of the HS”. This doesn’t mean that it’s the person of the HS. It could be, and I believe it is, something that the HS gives.

Peter is using the Baptism [graduation ceremony] as a synonym for believing and repenting [Passing your subjects]. Baptism, like a graduation ceremony, is symbolic.

No Peter didn’t. Baptism is a synonym for belief? Where did you get that? Synonym means the same or very close to it. There is NOTHING the same about repentance and baptism. Peter never says they are the same.

 

[The Gallant Saint]

The NT NEVER tells an alien sinner to confess their sins and beg for mercy. The NT commandments about how to remove sins is pretty clear.

Let us understand that God doesn't act differently between NT and OT, nor the way He forgives is different. It's not like "He forgives in the OT this way", "He forgives in the NT this way". Let's also not forget that everything in the OT applied to the NT - everything. They were Jews and they only had the OT or Tanakh.

Ex 33:19 "And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion to whom I will show compassion.”

The God of the NT = the God of the OT. God will forgive you if you repent and follow the commandments. However, it is the atonement that is different between the old covenant and the new.

baptism in water is no more important than belief or repentance. They all work together. Just because the Baptist like to have some baptism service some 3 weeks after someone came forward and confessed and said some prayer doesn’t make it right. Everyone detailed in the NT was baptized “immediately”! There was no “ceremony”. This idea is NOT Biblical.

With brotherly love sir, I don't think you're getting the analogy. I'm not saying baptism is a ceremony, what I'm saying is, that it's symbolic like a ceremony is symbolic.

I disagree. Just to play along with your story....the certificate is the removal of your sins and your name now being written in the lambs book of life.

The certificate is the in-dwelling of the HS, as a result of repentance and obedience, and believing into the Name of Jesus.

You don’t get your name in until AFTER the conclusion of all of your subjects.

This is correct.

If you fail one of your subjects you won’t be recorded in the book as a graduate.

This is correct. Analogous to someone who does not fully repent.

Can’t be baptized with a broke leg?
If you “live” in the dessert then you must have enough water to survive. Do you take baths? Im sure you can scrounge up enough water for a simple immersion.

So are you saying that no water = no Baptism = no HS? So the HS depends on water?

No Peter didn’t. Baptism is a synonym for belief? Where did you get that? Synonym means the same or very close to it. There is NOTHING the same about repentance and baptism. Peter never says they are the same.

Same question: no water = no Baptism = no HS? So the HS depends on water?

 

[Cnkw3]

Let us understand that God doesn't act differently between NT and OT, nor the way He forgives is different. It's not like "He forgives in the OT this way", "He forgives in the NT this way". Let's also not forget that everything in the OT applied to the NT - everything. They were Jews and they only had the OT or Tanakh.

Ex 33:19 "And He said, “I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion to whom I will show compassion.”

The God of the NT = the God of the OT. God will forgive you if you repent and follow the commandments. However, it is the atonement that is different between the old covenant and the new.

Yes. Everybody since the beginning of time that has been saved was saved by “Faith”.
Abraham.....saved by faith
Noah......saved by faith
Moses...saved by faith
Saul of Tarsus......saved by faith.
But.....none of them were saved by “faith” or belief alone.
Abraham had to leave his home and later sacrifice his son.
Noah had to build an ark
Moses had to lead his people out of Egypt, cross the Red Sea, follow the new law, sacrifice animals, build a tabernacle, etc
Saul had to believe repent confess and be immersed in water.
All of them saved BY FAITH.
How are we saved today? By faith!
Before Jesus ascended he gave the great commission. The gospel of Jesus Christ. These conditions of salvation have not changed for 2000 years. The NT even calls it our “common salvation”. Saul of Tarsus was obedient to it and so are we to be as well. This is how, today, we are saved BY FAITH!

With brotherly love sir, I don't think you're getting the analogy. I'm not saying baptism is a ceremony, what I'm saying is, that it's symbolic like a ceremony is symbolic.

You placed baptism separate and apart from the “subjects” required to pass. That is not a correct analogy. Baptism is just another one of the subjects we have been given in order to receive remission of sins.

The certificate is the in-dwelling of the HS, as a result of repentance and obedience, and believing into the Name of Jesus.

How does the Spirit “indwell” a person? Are you saying the literal person of the HS lives within a body and therefore has some control, or are you saying that the Spirit dwells within the person that is guided by his words? Meaning he does not literally but representatively dwell within a person.

So are you saying that no water = no Baptism = no HS? So the HS depends on water?

Yes....no water=no baptism. What kind of baptism do you think Jesus in Mk 16 and Peter in acts 2:38 commanded? Wasn’t it water?

Same question: no water = no Baptism = no HS? So the HS depends on water?

In acts 2 we are told that those that heard the word were....”pricked in their heart”. So who did the pricking? The message they had heard came directly from the Spirit so wasn’t it the Spirit the one who did the Pricking?

In acts 7 when Stephen preached Jesus we are told this group was “cut to the heart”. Who did the cutting? Wasn’t it the Spirit. I think vs51 proves that. We are told the word of God is the sword of the Spirit. Eph 6.

So did the Spirit work on these people from the inside? Yes or no? Was the Spirit “inside” of these people working on their heart? Yes or no?
Inside=indwelling (if not why not)
If so, then what is all this stuff about....having to receive the Spirit at or after baptism?
After a person comes up out of the waters of baptism their sins are removed and they are SAVED! Who did that? The Spirit of God who gave them and us the words of salvation. Without the Spirit there would be no salvation. Without the Spirit we would know nothing of Jesus and his doctrine! So I don’t understand this idea of......”no baptism=no HS”

 

[The Gallant Saint]

Dear brother, I feel you have rushed through reading my replies. It could be that we have more understanding in common than we realize. I ask that you please read my reply slowly.

You placed baptism separate and apart from the “subjects” required to pass. That is not a correct analogy. Baptism is just another one of the subjects we have been given in order to receive remission of sins.

My question to you: no Baptism = no salvation?

How does the Spirit “indwell” a person? Are you saying the literal person of the HS lives within a body and therefore has some control, or are you saying that the Spirit dwells within the person that is guided by his words? Meaning he does not literally but representatively dwell within a person.

So did the Spirit work on these people from the inside? Yes or no? Was the Spirit “inside” of these people working on their heart? Yes or no?
Inside=indwelling (if not why not)

I am saying the Spirit guides the person because the Spirit is with and "within" (Ezekiel 36:27 uses the word "within"). Don't visualize the Spirit as a little person inside you, it is a Spirit.

Yes....no water=no baptism. What kind of baptism do you think Jesus in Mk 16 and Peter in acts 2:38 commanded? Wasn’t it water?

My question to you:
If there's no water = there's no baptism, and if no Baptism = no salvation,
Then no water = no salvation. Do you hold this view?

In acts 2 we are told that those that heard the word were....”pricked in their heart”. So who did the pricking? The message they had heard came directly from the Spirit so wasn’t it the Spirit the one who did the Pricking?

Yes agree.

If so, then what is all this stuff about....having to receive the Spirit at or after baptism?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that Baptism is symbolic, and the HS will convict one's heart of sin. And when you repent and believe, that is when the Spirit is with you.

Without the Spirit there would be no salvation.

The Spirit is there to guide us to all truth. John 16:13. Salvation will happen on the day of judgement. It has not happened yet. We can say that with the Spirit, we are on our way to salvation.

Without the Spirit we would know nothing of Jesus and his doctrine! So I don’t understand this idea of......”no baptism=no HS”

That was a question to you! So that's good that you don't understand the idea of ”no baptism=no HS” - because that's false.

 

[Cnkw3]

Dear brother, I feel you have rushed through reading my replies. It could be that we have more understanding in common than we realize. I ask that you please read my reply slowly.


My question to you: no Baptism = no salvation?



I am saying the Spirit guides the person because the Spirit is with and "within" (Ezekiel 36:27 uses the word "within"). Don't visualize the Spirit as a little person inside you, it is a Spirit.


My question to you:
If there's no water = there's no baptism, and if no Baptism = no salvation,
Then no water = no salvation. Do you hold this view?

Yes

Yes agree.


That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that Baptism is symbolic, and the HS will convict one's heart of sin. And when you repent and believe, that is when the Spirit is with you.

Whenever I hear people call baptism “symbolic” I am immediately skeptical. Because most people use this term to say that it has no bearing on one’s salvation it’s just a “symbol” of the salvation and grace you have already received.

The Spirit is there to guide us to all truth. John 16:13. Salvation will happen on the day of judgement. It has not happened yet. We can say that with the Spirit, we are on our way to salvation.

Yes. I agree

That was a question to you! So that's good that you don't understand the idea of ”no baptism=no HS” - because that's false.

This was a previous quote of yours and is part of the confusion....
“Coming back to baptism. To be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ means to repent and accept His blood as the atonement for our sins, for the forgiveness/remission of sins, and in doing this, we receive the Holy Spirit.”
You didn’t even mention immersion in water in this brief description. That is always a red flag to me. I’ve heard too many people try to talk there away around baptism.
To be baptized in the name of Christ is to be baptized by his authority and it was Christ that told us that we are to hear the gospel which includes his shed blood, believe in this message, repent and then be immersed in water (not as a symbol) but in obedience in order to wash sins away.
If there is a symbol in baptism it is when we obey the gospel or obey the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. He died was buried then raised....we too are to die, be buried (in water) and then be raised. Rom 6
Also, when it comes to the Spirit I take a different view point. I do not believe the promise made by Peter in acts 2:38 was for everyone just as the promise in the great commission made by Jesus in Mk 16:17f was not for everyone. I do not believe that the Spirit is connected to baptism which you seem to state above when you said......”in doing this we receive the HS”.
In your description above I believe the Spirit was already inside working on the person and this is how they come to believe, repent and be baptized.

 

[The Gallant Saint]

This was a previous quote of yours and is part of the confusion....
“Coming back to baptism. To be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ means to repent and accept His blood as the atonement for our sins, for the forgiveness/remission of sins, and in doing this, we receive the Holy Spirit.”
You didn’t even mention immersion in water in this brief description. That is always a red flag to me. I’ve heard too many people try to talk there away around baptism.

Baptism is with water. Apologies if I was not clear. Actually βαπτίζω (baptizo) means to immerse/soak.

To be baptized in the name of Christ is to be baptized by his authority and it was Christ that told us that we are to hear the gospel which includes his shed blood, believe in this message, repent and then be immersed in water (not as a symbol) but in obedience in order to wash sins away.
If there is a symbol in baptism it is when we obey the gospel or obey the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. He died was buried then raised....we too are to die, be buried (in water) and then be raised. Rom 6

Yes, Jesus did command us to be baptized. But what I am unsure about is that is this a prerequisite for salvation? But then again, it was commanded (Matthew 28:18-20), and to disobey Jesus would be tantamount to being unsaved.

Also, when it comes to the Spirit I take a different view point. I do not believe the promise made by Peter in acts 2:38 was for everyone just as the promise in the great commission made by Jesus in Mk 16:17f was not for everyone. I do not believe that the Spirit is connected to baptism which you seem to state above when you said......”in doing this we receive the HS”.

It sounds like it is for everyone? The context was the "people" no?

In your description above I believe the Spirit was already inside working on the person and this is how they come to believe, repent and be baptized.

Yes - the HS convicts a person of their sin, which (hopefully) results in their repentance, and in turn, the HS will guide the believer. I think to receive the gift of the HS is to receive the guidance of the HS. The guidance would be the gift.

 

[Cnkw3]

Baptism is with water. Apologies if I was not clear. Actually βαπτίζω (baptizo) means to immerse/soak.

Ok. Clarified. Thanks

Yes, Jesus did command us to be baptized. But what I am unsure about is that is this a prerequisite for salvation? But then again, it was commanded (Matthew 28:18-20), and to disobey Jesus would be tantamount to being unsaved.

Mk 16:16 tells us...he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. The saving here comes after the baptizing.
Acts 2:38. The remission of sins/salvation comes after immersion.
Acts 22:16. Saul was told to arise be baptized and wash away his sins = salvation.
People like to argue against these passages but they cant be more clear. The removal of sins therefore salvation doesn’t take place until one comes out of the water.
Rom 6:3,4,17,18

It sounds like it is for everyone? The context was the "people" no?

Sounds like it but....In Mk 16 we see this.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
This was a promise from Jesus to “them that believe”. We know this is not for ALL believers for all time. People don’t do this today. I’ve never seen anybody, and I travel for a living, who can do the things Jesus promises here. If there was anybody near me that could lay hands on the sick and heal, COVID would have never been a problem in my area. Could people do these things in the first century early church? Yes. How? They were given these gifts by the laying on of hands of an apostle or in the case of the apostles...directly through the Spirit.
Acts 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
This does NOT happen today. Peter and John healed a man who was verifiably lame. Everyone knew it and were amazed when he came in leaping and jumping and they said.....we cannot deny it. Doesn’t happen today! A withered hand restored. A severely damaged or club foot restored? No.

Yes - the HS convicts a person of their sin, which (hopefully) results in their repentance, and in turn, the HS will guide the believer. I think to receive the gift of the HS is to receive the guidance of the HS. The guidance would be the gift.

Could be right. But to me the HS has already been guiding these people unto salvation. It seems odd that he would promise a gift to people who had already received it. They had already heard the gospel message through the Spirit? They had been told what to do to remove sins through the guidance of the Spirit so it just seems strange that now Peter would promise them this guidance after they had already received guidance?
I like to let the Bible define things as much as possible. It is it’s own best commentary. The word “gift” is used a couple more times in acts 10 and acts 8.
The “gift of the HS” was used with Cornelius and it refers to the miraculous ability he was given through the Spirit. Acts 10:45.
In acts 8 Simon wanted the miraculous ability of Peter and Peter said...
8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
The “gift of God” is no different then the gift of the HG. And both, in these context, refer to miraculous abilities. Also, those in Samaria DID NOT receive the Spirit until an apostle laid hands on them. The HG made it a point to tell us this fact. Acts 8:16.
Sounds strange the text would spell this out especially after Peter had just promised the “gift of the Spirit”.
I have more thoughts on this but these are just some of mine. I try to let the Bible define what it means as much as possible.

 

[The Gallant Saint]

Ok. Clarified. Thanks

Mk 16:16 tells us...he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. The saving here comes after the baptizing.
Acts 2:38. The remission of sins/salvation comes after immersion.
Acts 22:16. Saul was told to arise be baptized and wash away his sins = salvation.
People like to argue against these passages but they cant be more clear. The removal of sins therefore salvation doesn’t take place until one comes out of the water.
Rom 6:3,4,17,18

Sounds like it but....In Mk 16 we see this.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
This was a promise from Jesus to “them that believe”. We know this is not for ALL believers for all time. People don’t do this today. I’ve never seen anybody, and I travel for a living, who can do the things Jesus promises here. If there was anybody near me that could lay hands on the sick and heal, COVID would have never been a problem in my area. Could people do these things in the first century early church? Yes. How? They were given these gifts by the laying on of hands of an apostle or in the case of the apostles...directly through the Spirit.
Acts 4:16 Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
This does NOT happen today. Peter and John healed a man who was verifiably lame. Everyone knew it and were amazed when he came in leaping and jumping and they said.....we cannot deny it. Doesn’t happen today! A withered hand restored. A severely damaged or club foot restored? No.

Could be right. But to me the HS has already been guiding these people unto salvation. It seems odd that he would promise a gift to people who had already received it. They had already heard the gospel message through the Spirit? They had been told what to do to remove sins through the guidance of the Spirit so it just seems strange that now Peter would promise them this guidance after they had already received guidance?
I like to let the Bible define things as much as possible. It is it’s own best commentary. The word “gift” is used a couple more times in acts 10 and acts 8.
The “gift of the HS” was used with Cornelius and it refers to the miraculous ability he was given through the Spirit. Acts 10:45.
In acts 8 Simon wanted the miraculous ability of Peter and Peter said...
8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
The “gift of God” is no different then the gift of the HG. And both, in these context, refer to miraculous abilities. Also, those in Samaria DID NOT receive the Spirit until an apostle laid hands on them. The HG made it a point to tell us this fact. Acts 8:16.
Sounds strange the text would spell this out especially after Peter had just promised the “gift of the Spirit”.
I have more thoughts on this but these are just some of mine. I try to let the Bible define what it means as much as possible.

Ok. Fair points. I will go away and study this.