Athiest query

[cia11]

Hello to whoever's reading this,

I'm an 18 year old student and I'm studying drama - I was just wondering if anyone would be willing to give me some insight into the world of Christian parenting? I have no real experience of living with religion and for my drama coursework I need to understand a few things. I also have a personal interest in religion and would really welcome any answers.

So anyway, my question is: What would you do if you had a daughter who told you she didn't believe in God? What would you say to her? What throughts would run through your head?

I'm not trying to challenge anyone's beliefs or insult anyone. I'm genuinely interested and need to know if my portrayal of this issue is accurate (I have a suspicion it may not be and I don't want to offend anyone).

Thanks for your help

 

[handy]

Re: Athiest querey

Hi cia11, and welcome to the board.

This is an interesting question that you have and you may want to ask one of the Administrator's if they can move it to a more active forum. This forum is basically just a place to introduce yourself and say hi.

In answer to your question, and since I have a daughter, I can say that I would have concerns if my daughter left her faith in God. As of now, she believes in God and tries to live according to His commandments. But, she's only 10 and not a teenager yet! :-D I know that in the future years, as she grows to be her own woman and separates what she believes and what she just follows her parents on, she'll have questions. As of now, we just try to keep a good relationship with her, one in which she knows she can ask us anything at all. As far as thoughts, they would be more in the nature of prayers, as I would be praying daily that she would come to know the Lord even more deeply as she works through her questions regarding Him. One thing I wouldn't do would be to nag her or 'cut her off' if she did so. Christianity is much like the old horse and water adage. You can witness, share, nag and force your kids to church, but you can't make them born-again. That is something that is solely between them and God.


BTW, I love drama. I used to be in a Community Theater Group before I married and moved to the hills.

 

[cia11]

Thanks for your reply!

That's a good idea, I will ask to move it. And thanks for your answer, its really helpful of you

I don't really know anything about religion in terms of home-life as none of my family believe in God and neither do I. But I'm really interested in different ways of life - I hate the idea of being ignorant about anything! The only information I have about the subject my character is about is Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion (he mentions the way family members can react to the outing of their loved one as an athiest), and some anecdotal stuff.

 

[handy]

It might be interesting to ask your parents how they would feel if you became a born-again Christian. I would imagine the results of a child taking a radically different spiritual path than the one their parents raised them in would be pretty much the same, irregardless of the path itself.

Just out of curiosity, what role are you playing? Is it a play based upon Dawkin's work? The problem I have with Dawkin's isn't his athiesm, but rather that his total disdain and superior attitude has caused him to lack any perspective. Dawkin's talking about religion like he has all the correct answers is a lot like me trying to talk about memetics and act like I know all about it and treat anyone who would embrace such foolishness as an idiot. If after I spent a few months, years, studying memetics, perhaps I could form such a strong opinion. But, when critics suggested that Dawkins lacks the necessary scholarship on theology to make his case, his reply was a typical (for him) disdainful, "Do you have to read up on leprechology before disbelieving in leprechauns?"

At any rate, I commend you for seeking information from believers as to how believers would react in such a situation.

 

[cia11]

Yeah I have asked my parents - they said they'd be surprised but as long as I was happy and safe then they don't mind what I believe.

I can see where you're coming from with Dawkins, although in the God Delusion he says things that when said outright appear arrogant and outrageous, but are then followed by a logical balanced argument. Some of the things in his books make me gasp- but then when you read his explanations they appear perfectly reasoned. Although since I agree with most of his opinions, I'm not offended by him. I reckon he must seem very offensive to someone who believes the opposite.

Until I read Dawkins, I had no idea how atheists were seen by most people, and it really surprised me to hear that he has recieved letters from priests in America, who no longer believe but are terrified of how their families and communities would react. It really interested me and I had a look on a few websites, finding that lots of people were actually afraid of 'coming out' to their parents. So yeah, I suppose my character did come partly from reading his work. But the play itself is an amalgamation of four characters dealing with a big issue in their lives - because we have to write about our 'dramatic journey', we thought having a main character each to develop would be a good thing to include.

The other three are totally different from mine, one is a teacher in a mid-life crisis, one has anorexia and the other one is struggling to come out as gay as he is in love with his best friend.

All in all, a pretty varied piece!

 

[handy]

All in all, a pretty varied piece!

Sounds like it would be! Best of luck on it!

Regarding folks who are 'coming out': I think it really doesn't matter if one is gay, one is a closet athiest, or even a closet Republican in a house full of Democrats, it's hard to admit to everyone that one isn't the person thought to be. We relate to each other on the basis what what we know about each other, and when someone comes up with something that seems at odds with what we thought we knew, it is unsettling. And, that's just for folks who live in reasonable families. I imagine how much harder it would be if one were in a family filled with bigotry and hatred. So, yeah, I bet there are a lot of folks who were raised in a religious home that are afraid to speak of their lack of faith.

I remember when I became a Christian in a house that although wasn't atheist, certainly wasn't religious. I 'hid' for a while and was quite nervous when I asked my mom to drive me to church. (I was 13 at the time.) She was a little surprised but not upset or anything, but it still felt weird to have this thing that was so important to me, that others in my family didn't relate to.

 

[NRoof]

cia11

So anyway, my question is: What would you do if you had a daughter who told you she didn't believe in God? What would you say to her? What throughts would run through your head?

Just as handy I have a daughter that is still young (11) so I don't have to deal with that at this time. That being said what would I do/
The answer is rather simple.

I would love and support her.

This doesn't mean I would just accept her decision but would instead discuss it with her. I would simply ask why she believed the way she does and explain why I believe the way I do. I would spend time talking to God (privately) asking him to work on my daughters heart.

My role as a Christian father is the same as a Christian except I usually have more time with family. My job is simply to plant the seed and water it. It is God's job to make that seed grow.

 

[cia11]

Lol, thanks

I know what you mean about 'coming out' in general. It really doesn't matter what you believe or whatever it is that makes you different, its always a nervewracking experience. When I was about 13 I thought I was a Wiccan, and that was a pretty strange thing to tell my parents! The same when came out as bisexual - although I was incredibly surprised by the negative reaction of people at my school. It's such a relief when parents react supportively to a situation - maybe that's why neagtive reactions to stuff like this fascinates me.

Thanks for your reply NRoof, I really appreciate your help! Just out of interest on a slightly different topic, you mentioned you would discuss with her why you believe what you do. Could I ask why you believe? Since I don't have faith I'm not sure how personal these reasons tend to be - if it is a personal question then I don't expect you to reply of couse!

 

[Vic C.]

Norm hit it with this response:

This doesn't mean I would just accept her decision but would instead discuss it with her. I would simply ask why she believed the way she does and explain why I believe the way I do. I would spend time talking to God (privately) asking him to work on my daughters heart.

Two things need to be done (make it three) as a Christian parent;

Lead by example. Easier said than done, but oh so important.

Provide the child with an environment that is at least conducive to making wise choices and decisions. (think of Proverbs 22:6) That includes really getting to know the child.

and pray! There has been discussion from time to time here about praying for the salvation of the unbeliever. In the meantime, I will pray for God to grant them the precious gift of salvation.

 

[NRoof]

Lol, thanks

Thanks for your reply NRoof, I really appreciate your help! Just out of interest on a slightly different topic, you mentioned you would discuss with her why you believe what you do. Could I ask why you believe? Since I don't have faith I'm not sure how personal these reasons tend to be - if it is a personal question then I don't expect you to reply of couse!

Yes it is a personal question but not one that is private. Please understand everyone’s relationship with God is a personal one, very similar to that of a child and a parent.

Lets start with a little history:
I grew up in a family very similar to yours. My parents didn't go to Church but my father was well versed in the Bible. Understand knowing what the Bible says does not mean you are a Christian. Most Atheist’s know the Bible probably better that most Christians. I've always wondered why that is. :smt102 Back to the story. I had a wonderful family life, many friends and wanted for very little. When I was 9 I got my first motorcycle. This is important as you will soon see. One day I was talking to my father and somehow we got on the subject of creation. He told me a story that has stuck with me. Well use the question "Where did we come from?" as a primer. He said:

Well you like that motorcycle you have right? Imaging 1000 years from now you go into a field and see your motorcycle. Now imagine how it evolved from a rock. It didn't. There was a plan and that plan was followed to make the motorcycle.

He didn't come right out and say God created the earth and heavens but it was implied. This is where I started to believe in a supreme being but I had no idea who or what that was. Due to a certain experiences with my Uncles Church that I had to attend when I would visit him left me with little use for Church (bigger story here but well save that). Because of this my favorite saying was "I believe in God but I don't believe in the Church". This is how it stayed through my childhood and early adult life. At this point I am not a Christian but I do believe we were created and the God from the Bible is my only reference so in that since I believed in God.

Now we jump ahead a few years. I’m married now to a wonderful woman whose parents brought her to Church every week. She even attended a Christian school growing up but as an adult she had strayed. After we have our second child she informs me we are going to start going to Church. I tell her to have fun. She informs me I don’t understand and that I am going to. How to get out of this? Fine I tell her but only if the Church does this, this and this. Great she’ll never find a Church like that. Wrong. So now I start going to Church and figure I might just as well make the best of a bad situation. So I start listening to what the pastor has to say and I start reading the Bible to see what it has to say. Reading and doing research (I’m an engineer) it just made sense to me. At some point I just gave my life to Christ. There were no fireworks, no fanfare, it just happened slowly over time.

Bottom line for me is it is easier to believe we were created by God than to believe we were created by a bunch of atoms getting together and having a party. To me it takes much more faith to believe in the big bang and evolution than to believe in God.

I hope this help some and I will be more than willing to answers any questions you have to the best of my ability.

Norm

 

[cia11]

Wow, thanks NRoof!

I see what you mean about everyone's reasons being different, but it really is fascinating to catch a glimpse of one person's own reasons.

What you said at the end really caught my eye -

Bottom line for me is it is easier to believe we were created by God than to believe we were created by a bunch of atoms getting together and having a party. To me it takes much more faith to believe in the big bang and evolution than to believe in God.

It amazes me how one person can believe this, and another (me) can believe the exact opposite. Don't you think it's incredible how people can reach such opposing conclusions about the universe, with exactly the same knowledge? (Well, not exactly the same, but you know what I mean!)

 

[NRoof]

It amazes me how one person can believe this, and another (me) can believe the exact opposite. Don't you think it's incredible how people can reach such opposing conclusions about the universe, with exactly the same knowledge? (Well, not exactly the same, but you know what I mean!)

Believe it or not I do know what you mean. I am scientific by nature. I need to understand how and why things work. This makes faith very difficult for me. My wife on the other hand seems to have no problem just going on faith.

Let me try and explain why I think it is easier to believe in creation. I will use my motorcycle illustration again. I generally break things down like this just to make it easier for me to understand.

Lets take all the individual components that make up a motorcycle. Take all those parts and throw them in a pile. Will we end up with a usable motorcycle? Probably not. Repeat this billions of times. Will the result be any different?

Now look at the complexities of life and all that needs to happen to keep life continuing.
Would it make sense to just throw all the required atoms together and all life just happens.

Think about this. What would happen to animal life (including human) if there were no plants?

Here is another fun one to think about. If an animal (including us) gets cut we bleed. The only reason we stop is our blood clots and stops the flow. How did this come to be?
This can’t be a trait that was adapted over time because an animal that was cut would die from blood loss and therefore could not pass anything on. Blood had to clot right from the beginning.

These are just a few simple examples and some of the thought processes I have used to come to the conclusions I have.

I would be very interested on your take of these.

Norm

 

[cia11]

Its really interersting that you mentioned that analogy of the motorcycle. Would I be right in thinking that that is an adaptation of the Ultiamte Boeing 747 theory? If not, its a theory that talks about a tornado sweeping through a scrapyard and assembling a 747 - the argument from Improbablity.

The improbability of life evolving to the state it is in now is, unless I'm mistaked a widely used argument for God's existence.

However I would say that evolution isn't improbable at all, it just takes a detailed journey through time, starting right at the beginning. When a star exploded, the hydrogen atoms were pushed together with such force that they formed atoms of other elements. This then formed our solar system. (I'm paraphrasing because obviously you know this but I need to illustate my point). Then on our planet, the atoms separated into the layers of magma, crust etc, forming our surface and thus volcanoes and also our atmosphere. Because of the chemical reactions in the atmosphere, eventually the planet began to change. Perhaps the most important change was the condensation of water. Eventually, different compounds of carbon, oxygen and nitrogen became even bigger compunds and mixtures which became primative plant structures. Then evolved algae and amoebas. Then fishes and sea creatures. As this was happening our atmosphere changed because of the plant life to become what we have today. Then the creatures were able to leave the sea to breathe in the oxygen.

My reasons for writing at length what everyone learns in biology is to illustrate just how long and complex our evolution was. Instead of it being improable, as soon as life was complex enough it began to adapt through natural selection, something that to me is a logical necessity. It couldn't have been any other way- how could a creature, ill-suited to its environment possibly survive?

As for your idea of blood- creatures obvioulsy wouldn't always have had a circulatory system. Indeed when it was just single cell organisms everthing was done by diffusion and osmosis. Then I suppose, as they developed into multiple cell clusters, some kind of advanced osmosis would have taken place. Our platelets would have been a very slow unbelievaly complicated development. Creatures would not have had blood until they were the size of fishes and amphibians, anything smaller would be a similar size to a blood cell I think

Maybe the best way to look at it is to think about a foetus. It goes through stages similar to our evolution. At first it is a cluster of cells. This always amazes me that we come from what is essentially two cells. At this stage it is too small to need blood, after all its not much bigger than a blood cell. But then we grow into something with an infinately complex circulatory system, with specially designed transport systems etc etc...I could go on. Our bodies are so unbelievably complex when you compare them to an embryo or a single cell organism, and we can see how they developed by looking at our past.

Anyway, (I'll stop soon!) all of this, from the explosion of a star to the discovery of fire is so inconveibaly complicated, but so meticulously logical, that I see no need for a creator of it all. I can marvel and be moved by its complexity, and I can be overwhelmed by the enormity of it all, but all it does for me is to prove that life created itself.

(I have to point out that all the knowledge I have of this is GCSE Biology and a keen interest, so if I got anything wrong I'm really sorry)

 

[handy]

Hi Cia,

I too am amazed at the universe and how life unfolds here. On a different thread I had discussed the idea of order coming out of chaos, and how unlikely that all seems to me. You mentioned starting right at the beginning, "when a star exploded". But, naturally you know that the true beginning was when the star (or whatever it was that caused the Big Bang) wasn't the beginning, because where did the star (or ball of gas, or whatever) come from? Just for arguement sake lets say that life did indeed create itself via compounds of basic elemental matter. But where did the elements come from? How can matter create itself?

But, this isn't why I believe. I believe because I wondered about spirituality. Spirituality seemed to be a big mystery to me, and when I was about 12 or so, I started to study the world's great religions to learn more regarding spiritual things. I then went to a church 'revival' which actually had the odd effect of making never want to go to a church again. But, during the revival, the pastor kept quoting from the Gospel of John.

I am an avid reader. I learned to read at a very young age, and learn best through reading. So, it makes sense that I would come to know God via reading, but before I began reading that night, I did a "prayer to the ceiling" sort of prayer. You know the type, "God, I don't know if you're real or not, but if you are, can you show me the truth of these things?" And He did.

It's really interesting to talk about science (my husband is a biology major and our daughter is following right in his footsteps so we're kind of a family of 'science nerds') and it's interesting to discuss philosophy. But, when it comes to spiritual truth, it really takes an earnest meeting with the Spirit for things to make sense. Which is why it is hard for those who totally reject any kind of spirituality to understand why and how a person can be a Christian.

 

[cia11]

Hi Handy

I used to be fascinated by spirituality too - it was what attracted me to celtic religions when I was younger. I think it really is a beautiful idea - but in recent years I've become more interested in the beauty of nature, which I guess is the non-believer's spiritual expereince!

What you say about the 'beginning' is true, of course we can't know where the very start was. It's a bit like Philosophy of Mind (if you haven't heard of that, I suggest you Wikipedia it, it blew my mind!) in that they are two things we simply cannot at this stage explain by science. However, many years ago we were equally as stumped by what is beyond our world, and what the moon and stars are. But as for the start of the creation of life, it was about as far back as I could go lol. the mystery of the origin of the univerese was what led me to be a Christain for about a year, as I couldn't think of any other explanation for it.

 

[handy]

Yeah, science can answer a lot of questions, but not the question of the cause of the universe. That remains a religious/philosophical question.

I'm interested that you say you were a Christian for about a year. How did you come to consider yourself a Christian, and why did you leave it? (If it's not too personal a question for you!)

 

[NRoof]

Its really interersting that you mentioned that analogy of the motorcycle. Would I be right in thinking that that is an adaptation of the Ultiamte Boeing 747 theory? If not, its a theory that talks about a tornado sweeping through a scrapyard and assembling a 747 - the argument from Improbablity.

Actually I have never heard of that before. Here I thought I was being clever only to find out someone came up with it first. :-D

However I would say that evolution isn't improbable at all, it just takes a detailed journey through time, starting right at the beginning.

This point I'm trying to make is about faith. I agree with you about the detailed portion but disagree that is happened out of chance. From a mathematical stand point the probability of what the big bang proposes is as close to 0 as you can get. So if the probability, for all intents, is 0 then you must have faith to believe it.
Another area we will disagree on is evolution. I don't believe evolution has happened but instead adaptation.

I too am amazed at the universe and how life unfolds here. On a different thread I had discussed the idea of order coming out of chaos, and how unlikely that all seems to me. You mentioned starting right at the beginning, "when a star exploded". But, naturally you know that the true beginning was when the star (or whatever it was that caused the Big Bang) wasn't the beginning, because where did the star (or ball of gas, or whatever) come from? Just for arguement sake lets say that life did indeed create itself via compounds of basic elemental matter. But where did the elements come from? How can matter create itself?

handy you beat me to it.

I am all for science. I just don't subscribe to unproven theories as gospel. Science has done many wonderful things and will continue to do so but believing something just because a scientist theorized it and a teacher taught it doesn't make it the truth.

As handy has said this isn't the only reason I believe but it is one of them.

Norm

 

[cia11]

Actually I have never heard of that before. Here I thought I was being clever only to find out someone came up with it first. :-D

Its always the case with me, lol!

Thing I have an issue with is the idea of 'chance'. I wouldn't describe the universe's development as chance because it doesn't happen by accident. For example, a Giraffe with a really long neck wasn't suddenly born randomly by chance, but giraffes with longer necks found it easier to reach food, and so survived longer to reproduce more and so on. This to me doens't seem like chance, but rather nature "Taking it's course".

As for the improbability of the big bang itself, I agree. But to illustrate my opinion I'll use a dice. If you have a one in 10 chance of rolling a six, and you roll ten times, you should get one six. If thereare ten big bangs, one should create the universe. I think that the idea of a being existing before anything else, and creating everything else in existance is far more improbable.

I also think that because we are spacio-temporal beings, we are incapable of comprehending anything outside of our time and space - which is natural as we have not evolved to need this ability. It could be God, or it could be a snowflake!

This makes me sound as though I should be agnostic, not atheist. But I think its important to make a decision. Science has proven itself to me. Religion has (In my experience) done nothing of the sort, so if I'm going to put my eggs in a basket, it'll be science's.

Handy - Nope, not really personal! I went to a Church of England primary school, and because my parents are atheists this was my first real experience of religion. So naturally I went along with it for a few years, until my parents told me what they believe and I changed my mind. Then when I was 7, I was sick and I thought it was God punishing me.
So I went back to believing on and off until I was 13, when I dicovered celtic faiths and wicca. I really liked the spiritualism in these faiths so I followed them for a few years. After that, I just sort of thought one day 'Yeah there's a God', because it made me feel safe (I was having some problems with panic and anxiety at the time, so I think I needed something to protect me). It was a private thing, and I said to people that I was agnostic because I didn't want to label myself as Christian. But because it was the one I'd had most experience with, I sort of clung to it.
And finally, about three years ago, when my anxiety problems had become easier to deal with, I started to think about what I believed. When I thought about there being nothing after death, and no power to look after me, it just made sense to me. So there you have it, lol

 

[Vic C.]

This makes me sound as though I should be agnostic, not atheist. But I think its important to make a decision. Science has proven itself to me. Religion has (In my experience) done nothing of the sort, so if I'm going to put my eggs in a basket, it'll be science's.

LOL, maybe this is where should bring up Pascal's wager, heh? ;-) It's important to make a decision, but if one considers all the possibilities, then the only decision that counts is the right decision. 8-)

 

[cia11]

This makes me sound as though I should be agnostic, not atheist. But I think its important to make a decision. Science has proven itself to me. Religion has (In my experience) done nothing of the sort, so if I'm going to put my eggs in a basket, it'll be science's.

LOL, maybe this is where should bring up Pascal's wager, heh? ;-) It's important to make a decision, but if one considers all the possibilities, then the only decision that counts is the right decision. 8-)

: Very ture. Pascal's wager is a running topic between me and my R.S teacher - who's made it his mission to convert me before I leave 6th Form!

I've always thought though that God, if he/she/it does exist, would rather we were all true to ourselves, would you agree? I can't see how God would want to punish me, if I lived my whole life trying not to harm anyone - just because I don't believe. And if God would punish me for that, I've always said (perhaps a little boldly) that I'd rather go to hell than heaven!

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this subject

Cia x