Baptism and Salvation

[JM]

john 15:3
Jesus is speaking to his disciples. are we to assume that these words apply directly to us as well? Jesus is also speaking before He the institution of baptism. He also has the power to grant salvation, just as he promised the thief on the cross beside Him that He would be beside him in paradise (again before the institution of baptism, which came on the day of pentecost). note: judas iscariot was not present at this time (13:30).

BS,

You missed the point of my post, I was saying that regeneration is of God and God only. The water spoken of in John 3 is the working of God...not 'water' baptism. Only God can regenerate the lost.

jason
5 point calvinist!

 

[JM]

in response to jason:
"water=washing of regeneration". "washing=?"

BS,

Washing is done by the Word of God.

Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Strong
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.


John Gill:

by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; by the former is meant, not the ordinance of water baptism; for that is never expressed by washing, nor is it the cause or means of regeneration; the cause being the Spirit of God, and the means the word of God: and besides, persons ought to be regenerated before they are baptized; and they may be baptized, and yet not regenerated, as Simon Magus; nor is it a saving ordinance, or a point of salvation; nor can it be opposed to works of righteousness, as this washing is; for that itself is a work of righteousness; see Mat_3:15 and if persons were saved by that, they would be saved by a work of righteousness, contrary to the text itself: but regenerating grace is meant, or a being born of water, and of the Spirit; that is, of the grace of the Spirit, comparable to water for its purity and cleansing virtue: hence such who are regenerated and sanctified, are said to be washed and cleansed, having their hearts purified by faith, and their consciences purged from sin by the blood of Christ: by the latter,

the renewing of the Holy Ghost, is meant either the fruit and effect of the former, even newness of life and conversation, under the influence of the Holy Spirit; or else the gradual increase and progress of the work of grace upon the soul, renewed day by day in the spirit of the mind, by the Holy Ghost; or rather it means the same thing with regeneration, and is added partly as explanative of the washing of regeneration, showing that that is no other than the new creature, the new man, the new heart, and new spirit, formed in the soul, in the effectual calling; and partly to observe that the Holy Ghost is the author of it. Now it is in this way God saves his people, namely, by regenerating and renewing them; in this is the first appearance and discovery of the love of God to them; this is their open passage into a state of grace, and without this there is no entrance into glory; this is the foundation of all grace and good works, and by which saints appear to be heirs of the heavenly inheritance.

j

 

[Collier]

• Let me try and make this simple.

1. Is salvation in Christ Jesus? Acts 4:12

• How do we get into Christ Jesus? Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27

Show me just one verse that says faith is into Jesus. Show me one verse that says confession or repentance are into Jesus.

• Again, these things are necessary but it is at baptism where we are actually put on Christ and enter into Him and salvation.

 

[blueberry pie]

Excerpt from www.carm.org - (C) Matthew J. Slick

What is the Gospel?

It is clearly the gospel that saves us. But what exactly is the gospel?

That too is revealed to us in the Bible. It is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Baptism is not mentioned here.

Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize: "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17). If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation.

Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized. Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days" (NIV).

These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.

 

[Collier]

The gospel is defined as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for our sins. Baptism is not mentioned here.

It is mentioned in connection with the death, burial and resurrection in Romans 6.

Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not to baptize

Yet he did baptize. This has already been covered in this thread so I will not go into farther.

Additionally, in Acts, Peter was preaching the gospel, people got saved, and then they were baptized.

Yes, Cornelius and his household received the baptism of the HS. Peter was to tell them the words whereby they would be SAVED. What was to save them? Hearing the words and having obedient faith to what they were taught. Now this is important. When did the HS fall upon them? Acts 10:44 says while Peter was still speaking the words that would save them. So, at what point while Peter was speaking did the HS fall upon them? Read Acts 11 to find the answer. In v.4 we find Peter told the events in the exact order they happened. V.15 tells us that when Peter BEGAN to speak the HS fell on them. So had Cornelius and his household heard the words that would save them before the HS fell on them? NO! To bind this example to people today means that one must first receive the HS and then hear the Gospel or the words that will save them. This example was to show once and for all that the Gentiles had been granted repentance unto life. [/list]

 

[JM]

Quote:

Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:25,26; Ez. 44:7,9) baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).

One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm

 

[Collier]

One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is not necessary for salvation, is he not taking away from what God has revealed? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved and so on.

• You see. It goes both ways.

By your own admission, baptism washes away sins.

baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21; Tit. 3:5)

So according to you, one may be saved while still in sin. Question: how did you get into Christ Jesus? Please give me the verse that shows your answer gets you into Jesus and salvation.

 

[JM]

The Bible teaching you are saved before baptism...or did he have time to get dunked?

Luk 23:40-43 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[JM]

By your own admission, baptism washes away sins.

That's not my admission but a quote I posted to help along the thread.

j

 

[Collier]

That's not my admission but a quote I posted to help along the thread

Understood! Sorry for the misapplication of your intention.

Luk 23:40-43 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I figure by you posting this that you are saying the thief on the cross was not baptized. Show me in the Bible were it says he was not baptized? You can't! You are assuming this because it would support your believe. Now who is adding to God's word?

• If we could assume anything about the thief (I do not advocate assuming), it would be that he was baptized. Look at passages such as Matthew 3:5-6. Notice how many were being baptized confessing their sins. Next look at John 4:1-3 and see how the disciples of Jesus were baptizing more than John. Could not the thief have been one of these people?

The fact is that we simply do not know one way or the other. Anyway, he could not be baptized into Jesus' death as Jesus (while in the process of dying) has not died yet. There are many other ways I could show that the thief was not required to be baptized as we do today, but this is sufficient.

 

[Monkey Del]

Collier,

Right on ! absoluetly correct! :D :D :D The fact is he was a Jew still under Jewish law! The Law of Christ did not take effect till after his death and ressurection.

 

[JM]

You are assuming this because it would support your believe. Now who is adding to God's word?

You're assuming he was to support your doctrine. It's logical to assume he was not, for the Scriptures do not record him as a follower, wouldn't that be important to note? lol It's not logical to assume he was baptized.

j
PS: As a friend once quoted to me, 'the natural man understandeth not the things of the Spirit of God.' This thread deny God's power to work outside of human means is a good example.

 

[Monkey Del]

You are assuming this because it would support your believe. Now who is adding to God's word?

You're assuming he was to support your doctrine. It's logical to assume he was not, for the Scriptures do not record him as a follower, wouldn't that be important to note? lol It's not logical to assume he was baptized.

j
PS: As a friend once quoted to me, 'the natural man understandeth not the things of the Spirit of God.' This thread deny God's power to work outside of human means is a good example.

No I denigh God works outside his word. He does not break his own word for no one, not even the Christ. :angel:

 

[Monkey Del]

You are assuming this because it would support your believe. Now who is adding to God's word?

You're assuming he was to support your doctrine. It's logical to assume he was not, for the Scriptures do not record him as a follower, wouldn't that be important to note? lol It's not logical to assume he was baptized.

j
PS: As a friend once quoted to me, 'the natural man understandeth not the things of the Spirit of God.' This thread deny God's power to work outside of human means is a good example.

Jason when did Christ commandments take effect. When Paul wrote Romans, or when Jesus talked with Nicodemeus? When? Read Hebrews...hint : testator...do a search on the word testator. Please then lets communicate:
:o :o

Hebrews 9:15": And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

"16": For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

"17": For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

"18": Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

"19": For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

 

[Monkey Del]

Testament (Page: 1490)
Tes"ta*ment (?), n. [F., fr. L. testamentum, fr. testari to be a witness, to make one's last will, akin to testis a witness. Cf. Intestate, Testify.]

1. (Law) A solemn, authentic instrument in writing, by which a person declares his will as to disposal of his estate and effects after his death. &hand; This is otherwise called a will, and sometimes a last will and testament. A testament, to be valid, must be made by a person of sound mind; and it must be executed and published in due form of law. A man, in certain cases, may make a valid will by word of mouth only. See Nuncupative will, under Nuncupative.

2. One of the two distinct revelations of God's purposes toward man; a covenant; also, one of the two general divisions of the canonical books of the sacred Scriptures, in which the covenants are respectively revealed; as, the Old Testament; the New Testament; -- often limited, in colloquial language, to the latter.

He is the mediator of the new testament . . . for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament. Heb. ix. 15.
Holographic testament, a testament written wholly by the testator himself. Bouvier. <-- also holographic will. "Written" means, in handwriting. -->

 

[Collier]

You're assuming he was to support your doctrine. It's logical to assume he was not, for the Scriptures do not record him as a follower, wouldn't that be important to note? lol It's not logical to assume he was baptized

I was not assuming he was baptized. I merely pointed out the fact that it was possible. Was he a follower? I guess you think not because he was a thief? He knew enough to call him Lord. Somehow, somewhere he had heard of Jesus. Interesting!

• Anyway, as you pointed out, it doesn't matter because of the time he died.

Take care.

 

[JM]

Please then lets communicate.

Del,

I truly feel (and I'm not the only one who avoids your posts), that you are here to cause confussion and stir up conflict. It's hard to talk about the Word of God with those who 'lack spiritual eyes' to see. I will not communicate with you on doctrine or theology.

j

 

[Henry]

Uhmm what are you guys talking about now? Who is the "who" that you are refering to?

And what is with the confusoin here, is someone intentionally being devisive?

Henry

 

[Sower]

Water baptism is (symbolic) of a new life...lets not confuse whats symbolic with a repentant heart. But, common sense tells me that God is a god of the heart...if i get caught up in legalism i truly miss what he is all about. Yes, get baptized...but will it send you to hell if you dont? Dont think so. It's the relationship Jesus is after. You must be born again. There are people who get baptized everyday who've never known Jesus. They just go through a ritual for fire insurance. On the other hand you can have "unchurched" people who are in right relationship with Jesus who may not have been baptized in flesh, but in heart.

4runner:

Obedience to the Word of God is NOT legalism but LOVE for Christ (Jn.14:21). Water baptism immediately after salvation is Christ's COMMANDMENT (Matt. 28:18-20; Mk.16:15,16). Therefore, whenever the Gospel is preached, repentance toward God, faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ, and baptism by immersion must be preached, just as Peter did on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38).

Baptism cannot and does not save, but PROVES outwardly that we are indeed genuinely saved, since we do not hesitate to obey Christ. Those who remain unbaptized after hearing the truth about baptism are disobedient Christians -- NOT in a right relationship with God.

We must be very careful not to bring up the term "legalism" when speaking of the commandments of Christ or the injunctions of the apostles. The Lord has said very plainly "TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS, WHATSOVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU" (Mt. 28:20) and that's what this is about. We must teach this truth since we will all give account.

 

[JM]

Both sides have given arguements, used the Bible to show their side and also given commentary.

How do we know which side is the truth? (pls, don't say, 'the inner witness of the Holy Spirit)

j