Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is not at salvation

[eddif]

I believe it to be a process. We are graced to be worthy of the inheritance when we heed Christ's call. And our walk through life in the love and light of his words as we deliver them in our presence in this world by living the words of peace, charity, community, graciousness, forgiveness, draws us closer to benefit from living the words of our Lord. We come into our inheritance when we leave this world while we are walking toward it by living the words of God within and to this world.

This is what I had in mind.
I Corinthians 15:52 KJV
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I was not clear I was still referring to your use of Ephesians 1:13-14.

until we acquire possession of it,

My possession will be by faith. I tend to be a lot more sorry than my plans. My mind soars to high ideals in Christ, but my flesh lets me down. There is a change coming at the last trump though.

Romans 7:25 seems to relate to my experience. I confess sins and commend myself into his hands.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[dirtfarmer]

I believe chuck missler is once saved always saved, which I don't agree with, but I agree with much of the other issues he brings up.

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

If Christ paid the sin debt for the whole world, then what is left to condemn us? In salvation there is death to the old man that sin reigns through. By the death of Christ the old man has been rendered powerless to control those that by faith believe that Christ died for them and in their place. This is where the only sin that condemns is the sin of unbelief. The unsaved have no relationship nor fellowship with God. When a person is saved the spirit of man is separated from their soul and is made conscious of the Spirit of God that witnesses to them that they are children of God.

That separation of the spirit from the soul establishes an eternal relationship with God, whereby in that relationship we can fellowship with God and other believers. When a believer is overtaken in a fault it is the fellowship that is broken, not the relationship.

 

[1Genesis]

This is what I had in mind.
I Corinthians 15:52 KJV
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I was not clear I was still referring to your use of Ephesians 1:13-14.

My possession will be by faith. I tend to be a lot more sorry than my plans. My mind soars to high ideals in Christ, but my flesh lets me down. There is a change coming at the last trump though.

Romans 7:25 seems to relate to my experience. I confess sins and commend myself into his hands.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I appreciate and respect your perspective. I am blessed that you shared it with me eddif. May we find each other in peace and glorified in the presence of our Lords calling at that last trump.

 

[eddif]

I appreciate and respect your perspective. I am blessed that you shared it with me eddif. May we find each other in peace and glorified in the presence of our Lords calling at that last trump.

I tend toward sin no longer has dominion.
Should we continue in sin? No.
Should we sin that grace should abound? No.

I scare a holiness person pretty bad though.
This has really been tough to work through.

eddif

 

[1Genesis]

I tend toward sin no longer has dominion.
Should we continue in sin? No.
Should we sin that grace should abound? No.

I scare a holiness person pretty bad though.
This has really been tough to work through.

eddif

I agree with your observations there. When we are in Christ we are no longer sinners. That is what we once were. All that we do now is under the grace of our Father, and all wrong we do is covered under the blood of his Son. Now we do not make a practice of sinning because we know the difference between sin and righteousness. Sin and right-ness. We make mistakes, we foul up, do the wrong thing, and yet when that pricks our conscience we know we are on the path of holiness because we are aware and repentant. Unlike before. Take the journey lightly eddif. You are born in the unique and grace filled imagery of the most high God.

 

[godsquadgeek]

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

If Christ paid the sin debt for the whole world, then what is left to condemn us? In salvation there is death to the old man that sin reigns through. By the death of Christ the old man has been rendered powerless to control those that by faith believe that Christ died for them and in their place. This is where the only sin that condemns is the sin of unbelief. The unsaved have no relationship nor fellowship with God. When a person is saved the spirit of man is separated from their soul and is made conscious of the Spirit of God that witnesses to them that they are children of God.

That separation of the spirit from the soul establishes an eternal relationship with God, whereby in that relationship we can fellowship with God and other believers. When a believer is overtaken in a fault it is the fellowship that is broken, not the relationship.

sin can cause us to doubt, drift and depart, all themes of hebrews. Sin can decieve us, is we do it willfully and consistently. To the point we no longer wish to be saved, hebrews six verse 4. This unwishing of salvation, is the departure of the faith, and the ultimate sin that condemns us. But I believe i am eternally secure because I want to be. If at any time I didn't want it, I don't think God would force salvation on an unwitting soul.

 

[1Genesis]

sin can cause us to doubt, drift and depart, all themes of hebrews. Sin can decieve us, is we do it willfully and consistently. To the point we no longer wish to be saved, hebrews six verse 4. This unwishing of salvation, is the departure of the faith, and the ultimate sin that condemns us. But I believe i am eternally secure because I want to be. If at any time I didn't want it, I don't think God would force salvation on an unwitting soul.

I don't believe the Father calls unwilling souls to His Son.

 

[dirtfarmer]

sin can cause us to doubt, drift and depart, all themes of hebrews. Sin can decieve us, is we do it willfully and consistently. To the point we no longer wish to be saved, hebrews six verse 4. This unwishing of salvation, is the departure of the faith, and the ultimate sin that condemns us. But I believe i am eternally secure because I want to be. If at any time I didn't want it, I don't think God would force salvation on an unwitting soul.

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

If a person is born how can they become "unborn"? There are things that you do that your father doesn't want you to do, but does that make you "unborn" and not his offspring? He will always be your father, but you and he may not be on speaking terms because of what you did.

It is the same with our heavenly Father. Our fellowship can be broken, but once the relationship is established. it can't be broken. It is impossible to "un-apply" the blood that paid our debt of sin.

Hebrews was written to the Hebrews to show the superiority of Jesus Christ over the law to the Hebrews. In Hebrews 6:5 it is not stated that they can't be renewed to salvation but they can't be renewed unto repentance.

In chapter 7:13-14 why would it be necessary to mention the change in the priesthood from Levi to "Juda" to the Gentiles?The priesthood is strictly Jewish.

 

[eddif]

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

If a person is born how can they become "unborn"? There are things that you do that your father doesn't want you to do, but does that make you "unborn" and not his offspring? He will always be your father, but you and he may not be on speaking terms because of what you did.

It is the same with our heavenly Father. Our fellowship can be broken, but once the relationship is established. it can't be broken. It is impossible to "un-apply" the blood that paid our debt of sin.

Hebrews was written to the Hebrews to show the superiority of Jesus Christ over the law to the Hebrews. In Hebrews 6:5 it is not stated that they can't be renewed to salvation but they can't be renewed unto repentance.

In chapter 7:13-14 why would it be necessary to mention the change in the priesthood from Levi to "Juda" to the Gentiles?The priesthood is strictly Jewish.

By Hebrews 6:8 KJV
It sounds pretty dire.
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Matthew 7:22 KJV
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And at judgement day the departing place is hell.

We did not post:
Hebrews 6:6
Or Hebrews 6:7

Sounds like eternal damnation could be st hand for a field (and we are his planting
I Corinthians 3:9 KJV
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

(Other translations use field)

Slippery creek bank to a redneck.
eddif

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe chuck missler is once saved always saved, which I don't agree with, but I agree with much of the other issues he brings up.

Do you agree that Jesus keeps all of His promises?

 

[FreeGrace]

I tend toward sin no longer has dominion.
Should we continue in sin? No.
Should we sin that grace should abound? No.

I scare a holiness person pretty bad though.
This has really been tough to work through.

eddif

Just curious. What is a "holiness person"?

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree with your observations there. When we are in Christ we are no longer sinners. That is what we once were. All that we do now is under the grace of our Father, and all wrong we do is covered under the blood of his Son. Now we do not make a practice of sinning because we know the difference between sin and righteousness. Sin and right-ness. We make mistakes, we foul up, do the wrong thing, and yet when that pricks our conscience we know we are on the path of holiness because we are aware and repentant.

So, what are sins to the unbeliever are now just "mistakes, foul ups, wrong things" to the believer?

Please expand on your second sentence: "When we are in Christ we are no longer sinners."

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 3:12 KJV
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Just curious. What is a "holiness person"?

I reserve the right to remain silent. This is not a battle ground and I have said enough.

I do actually have my own personal internal battle in this area. I prefer not to say more than I already have. Judgement day will issue the final decision for every man. The Lambs book of life is opened.

redneck
eddif

 

[JohnDB]

After visiting several assisted living facilities and getting to know the residents well...
Everyone has sins... some are our pet sins that we can't/won't get rid of. The reasons for this are many. Even Christians have them.

What the problem is that when we are younger and keeping those sins as pets we are setting ourselves up for when we get older. Because what we thought that we had control of now will control us. All sin is progressive, insidious, and hurts those we love the most.
I have been saved from many of them. They no longer control me and I put them aside. I look forward to heaven as the "bonus prize".
I still fear the ones I can't see. I want rid of them. Because the fears and wants that control us when we are old are horrible. Tubes and wires running in and out of my body aren't as scary as being loaded down with fears and wants having complete control over me.

 

[godsquadgeek]

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

If a person is born how can they become "unborn"? There are things that you do that your father doesn't want you to do, but does that make you "unborn" and not his offspring? He will always be your father, but you and he may not be on speaking terms because of what you did.

It is the same with our heavenly Father. Our fellowship can be broken, but once the relationship is established. it can't be broken. It is impossible to "un-apply" the blood that paid our debt of sin.

Hebrews was written to the Hebrews to show the superiority of Jesus Christ over the law to the Hebrews. In Hebrews 6:5 it is not stated that they can't be renewed to salvation but they can't be renewed unto repentance.

In chapter 7:13-14 why would it be necessary to mention the change in the priesthood from Levi to "Juda" to the Gentiles?The priesthood is strictly Jewish.

is there any books of the bible you would call, written to gentiles and thus applicable to us? [edited] That was the hyper dispensationalism I said to avoid. As eddif stated there are dozens of verses. But again I think I am done debating with you on any topics. I used to be hyper dispensational, but now am not. I believe all scripture is God breathed and profitable for doctrine, while you only believe verses specifically written to gentiles is profitable for doctrine in the church. That leaves for very few sermons on sunday for sure. In conclusion, just because Hebrews was written to hebrew christians, does not mean that they are not applicable to the church. And the fact that they cannot be renewed to a key element of salvation (repentance) proves that this is a forfeiture of salvation. Not a leaving of salvation but a forfeiture. I recommend this audio message....http://www.joncourson.com/teaching/teachingsplay.asp?book=hebrews&teaching=W722&mediatype=videofile. Yes there is a warning in hebrews six, but that does not mean God is not able to renew repentance. Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, but we can choose to separate ourselves. Romans 8:38-39
1 Corinthians 6:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

I am not going to say, love your porn, love your prostitution, love your homosexuality, you are osas (once saved always saved).. Because we are not, we can leave salvation. Heb6:4

 

[chessman]

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

If you're a cursed brier or thorn bush it's dire.
What does Heb 6:8 have to do with God's justice toward people baptized in His name and sealed by The Holy Spirit until redemption, though?

For God is not unjust, so as to forget your work and the love which you demonstrated for his name by having served the saints, and continuing to serve them.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 6:10&version=LEB​

 

[godsquadgeek]

If you're a cursed brier or thorn bush it's dire.
What does Heb 6:8 have to do with God's justice toward people baptized in His name and sealed by The Holy Spirit until redemption, though?

For God is not unjust, so as to forget your work and the love which you demonstrated for his name by having served the saints, and continuing to serve them.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 6:10&version=LEB​

I was recommending a book but then mentioning that I reject his OSAS position, of once saved always saved. And we got on a tangent.

 

[JohnDB]

 

[chessman]

And we got on a tangent.

Yes, Heb 6:8 is obviously off-topic with respect to someone who's been baptized with the Holy Spirit. So is Acts 19:1-5. Only at the Acts 19:6 point did those folks get the Holy Spirit baptism and thus His sealing until redemption (salvation).

What's not off-topic is your answer to my question about those spoken of by Dr. Luke in Acts 19:1-6:

Before the Spirit lived in them, did they belong to Christ Jesus?

 

[WIP]

in a way you are correct as repentance is a gift as well according to 2 tim 2:25, but I look at faith as moreso of a gift and repentance as more my responsibility. I look at faith in part as something God does through us. While repentance is more of what we do for Him. But both are gifts.

Thanks for the verse reference. I never noticed that before.