Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is not at salvation

[JohnDB]

I'm confused...
Jesus was regularly asking his disciples, "Where is your faith?"

Now obviously the ability to have faith (like an arm or leg) is a gift from God but our exercise or use is solely in our pervue.
Repentance comes from seeing/understanding that our actions and attitudes are counter productive to what we really want.
God can allow consequences or not. Solely in His pervue. And a messenger confirming our suspicions about our actions and attitudes will seal the deal.

 

[dirtfarmer]

is there any books of the bible you would call, written to gentiles and thus applicable to us? you position is laughable, to be honest. That was the hyper dispensationalism I said to avoid. As eddif stated there are dozens of verses. But again I think I am done debating with you on any topics. I used to be hyper dispensational, but now am not. I believe all scripture is God breathed and profitable for doctrine, while you only believe verses specifically written to gentiles is profitable for doctrine in the church. That leaves for very few sermons on sunday for sure. In conclusion, just because Hebrews was written to hebrew christians, does not mean that they are not applicable to the church. And the fact that they cannot be renewed to a key element of salvation (repentance) proves that this is a forfeiture of salvation. Not a leaving of salvation but a forfeiture. I recommend this audio message....http://www.joncourson.com/teaching/teachingsplay.asp?book=hebrews&teaching=W722&mediatype=videofile. Yes there is a warning in hebrews six, but that does not mean God is not able to renew repentance. Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, but we can choose to separate ourselves. Romans 8:38-39
1 Corinthians 6:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

I am not going to say, love your porn, love your prostitution, love your homosexuality, you are osas (once saved always saved).. Because we are not, we can leave salvation. Heb6:4

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

Laugh if you want to, but laughing is not showing discussion, but disgust. No one ever learns anything when disgust from others is all they ever see.

If you don't want to engage in "any" discussion with me, that is your decision.

I also believe that all scripture is God breathed, but you cannot apply all scripture to the Church for doctrine. We don't bring rams and lambs to an altar for sacrifice to cover sins. We are created in Christ Jesus as a new creation in him and being in him is all that is needed. We don't need rams and lambs to restore fellowship. Romans 8:1 state there is therefore "no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus". When God looks on mankind, He eithers sees the old Adam under condemnation or he see the last Adam, Christ Jesus, and the blood(life) that was given for the sin of the world. Which is either belief which is salvation or unbelief which is condemnation to the lake of fire.

With this post I will abide by your decision not to converse on any topic.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Just curious. What is a "holiness person"?"

I reserve the right to remain silent. This is not a battle ground and I have said enough.

Not looking for battle, as I noted. Just curious.

I do actually have my own personal internal battle in this area. I prefer not to say more than I already have. Judgement day will issue the final decision for every man. The Lambs book of life is opened.

redneck
eddif

Actually, the Lamb's book of life is closed. God already knows everyone's name in that book. From before the foundation of the world. So there are no new names added.

 

[ezra]

the subject went to can you lose your salvation or you can,t ..your beating a dead horse one says God no longer sees our sins period. personally i disagree with that. he Does in fact see our sins after salvation. that is why we have a advocate . i would be curious if there could ever be a post that glorifies Christ and lifts him up? how about trying something positive for once?

 

[ezra]

"Just curious. What is a "holiness person"?"

Christ in us the Hope of Glory we all should be a "holiness person . not by some group we belong to .but a condition of our heart

 

[1Genesis]

So, what are sins to the unbeliever are now just "mistakes, foul ups, wrong things" to the believer?

Please expand on your second sentence: "When we are in Christ we are no longer sinners."

I would to think the scriptures have said it all. Do you know the path to salvation? If so then you have your answer there.

 

[Douglas Summers]

So, in order to not sin, the believer must be in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1) through confession of sin, and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

If we say we do not sin, we make God out to be a liar. But if we stay in fellowship with God, we will be convicted of the sins from the weakness of the flesh. The born again believer now has two natures (Gal. 5:17-18), The born again believer now has the light of Christ that shines into the dark places in the heart. And because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, (permanent possession) it convicts us of sin. (those who say the Spirit is not a permanent possession is a liar!) Therefore Christ's position as our propitiation and advocate (eternal sacrifice) stands between the repented sinner and the Father by Christ's finished work on the cross. (1 John 1:1-10) (1 John 2:1-11) While we have the heart of a servant for Christ, we are not Christ's servants. (John 15:15) The Church has become Son's of God. (Romans chapter 8, The Epistles to the Galatians). These and many other Scriptures make it CLEAR that we are Sons and heirs to Christ and the Throne, calling God our Father with Christ. This is only the Church's position in the kingdom. God is not saving the world at this time, He is calling out the Gentiles with the Jew for a people of His own (The Church). Then (after that) He will build up the house of David and restore Israel to her former glory. There is no misunderstanding those Scriptures to this purpose. (Acts 15:13-18) Then shall all the nations seek after the Throne of God (Rev. 21:21-27) This is what the Scriptures teach by the Spirit. Men teach something else. Study the Scriptures please

 

[godsquadgeek]

Yes, Heb 6:8 is obviously off-topic with respect to someone who's been baptized with the Holy Spirit. So is Acts 19:1-5. Only at the Acts 19:6 point did those folks get the Holy Spirit baptism and thus His sealing until redemption (salvation).

What's not off-topic is your answer to my question about those spoken of by Dr. Luke in Acts 19:1-6:

I look at baptism of holy spirit as after salvation, acts 19:2

 

[FreeGrace]

If we say we do not sin, we make God out to be a liar. But if we stay in fellowship with God, we will be convicted of the sins from the weakness of the flesh. The born again believer now has two natures (Gal. 5:17-18), The born again believer now has the light of Christ that shines into the dark places in the heart. And because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, (permanent possession) it convicts us of sin. (those who say the Spirit is not a permanent possession is a liar!)

Or more likely, just ignorant or resistant of Scripture.

Therefore Christ's position as our propitiation and advocate (eternal sacrifice) stands between the repented sinner and the Father by Christ's finished work on the cross. (1 John 1:1-10) (1 John 2:1-11) While we have the heart of a servant for Christ, we are not Christ's servants. (John 15:15) The Church has become Son's of God. (Romans chapter 8, The Epistles to the Galatians). These and many other Scriptures make it CLEAR that we are Sons and heirs to Christ and the Throne, calling God our Father with Christ. This is only the Church's position in the kingdom. God is not saving the world at this time, He is calling out the Gentiles with the Jew for a people of His own (The Church). Then (after that) He will build up the house of David and restore Israel to her former glory. There is no misunderstanding those Scriptures to this purpose. (Acts 15:13-18) Then shall all the nations seek after the Throne of God (Rev. 21:21-27) This is what the Scriptures teach by the Spirit. Men teach something else. Study the Scriptures please

Amen!

 

[FreeGrace]

I look at baptism of holy spirit as after salvation, acts 19:2

But this wasn't baptism of the Holy Spirit. It was water baptism in Jesus' name. Back up 9 chapters to the story of Cornelius. He and his household, upon believing what Peter was preaching, began speaking in tongues, demonstrating the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which IS baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Consider:
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

What is clear is that they received the Spirit BEFORE they were water baptized, v.47,48. They spoke in tongues BEFORE being water baptized, v.45, 48.

 

[chessman]

I look at baptism of holy spirit as after salvation, acts 19:2

Acts 19:2 begins a question/response which was directed to believers in John, not believers in Christ Jesus. Their answer describes them as believers in John's baptism, not believers in Jesus Christ. Not to mention that Acts 19:2 doesn't say they were saved or had previously believed in Jesus' name.

And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “But we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit!” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into the baptism of John.” And Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe in the one who was to come after him—that is, in Jesus.” And when they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 19:2-5&version=LEB

Do you think they belonged to Jesus before they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus?

 

[dirtfarmer]

But this wasn't baptism of the Holy Spirit. It was water baptism in Jesus' name. Back up 9 chapters to the story of Cornelius. He and his household, upon believing what Peter was preaching, began speaking in tongues, demonstrating the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which IS baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Consider:
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

What is clear is that they received the Spirit BEFORE they were water baptized, v.47,48. They spoke in tongues BEFORE being water baptized, v.45, 48.

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief, based on 1 Corinthians 14:22, that tongues were for a sign to unbelievers. Those unbelievers were Jews that were saved but didn't believe that God was bringing Gentiles and Jews together in one body, the Church, and there was no difference between Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ.
Acts 10:45 , " And they of the circumcision were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost,"
How did they know that the gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Gentiles? Acts 10:46, " For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God, then answered Peter,"

 

[godsquadgeek]

Acts 19:2 begins a question/response which was directed to believers in John, not believers in Christ Jesus. Their answer describes them as believers in John's baptism, not believers in Jesus Christ. Not to mention that Acts 19:2 doesn't say they were saved or had previously believed in Jesus' name.

And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “But we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit!” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into the baptism of John.” And Paul said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people that they should believe in the one who was to come after him—that is, in Jesus.” And when they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Acts 19:2-5&version=LEB

Do you think they belonged to Jesus before they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus?

Who told you they didn't believe in Jesus?

 

[godsquadgeek]

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

Laugh if you want to, but laughing is not showing discussion, but disgust. No one ever learns anything when disgust from others is all they ever see.

If you don't want to engage in "any" discussion with me, that is your decision.

I also believe that all scripture is God breathed, but you cannot apply all scripture to the Church for doctrine. We don't bring rams and lambs to an altar for sacrifice to cover sins. We are created in Christ Jesus as a new creation in him and being in him is all that is needed. We don't need rams and lambs to restore fellowship. Romans 8:1 state there is therefore "no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus". When God looks on mankind, He eithers sees the old Adam under condemnation or he see the last Adam, Christ Jesus, and the blood(life) that was given for the sin of the world. Which is either belief which is salvation or unbelief which is condemnation to the lake of fire.

With this post I will abide by your decision not to converse on any topic.

Bye. Yeah I don't entertain hyper dispensationalists.

 

[chessman]

Who told you they didn't believe in Jesus?

Luke and Paul.

Luke records that they had "not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit!”
and Paul says "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him." but when you believe in Christ you are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Who told you they had believed in Christ Jesus before even hearing that there is a Holy Spirit?

 

[eddif]

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief, based on 1 Corinthians 14:22, that tongues were for a sign to unbelievers. Those unbelievers were Jews that were saved but didn't believe that God was bringing Gentiles and Jews together in one body, the Church, and there was no difference between Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ.
Acts 10:45 , " And they of the circumcision were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost,"
How did they know that the gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Gentiles? Acts 10:46, " For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God, then answered Peter,"

These unbelievers?:
Isaiah 8:13 KJV
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Acts 16:16 KJV
And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

I Corinthians 12:2 KJV
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

I Corinthians 14:25 KJV
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
I Corinthians 14:23 KJV
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
...........
These are things a pagan wants:
Being mad (muttering)
Having an evil spirit
Crystal ball information
Reading cards
Are all based on evil or farmilar spirits.
......
Speaking truth relating to God is what believers want to hear and understand.

IMHO
eddif

 

[dirtfarmer]

These unbelievers?:
Isaiah 8:13 KJV
And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Acts 16:16 KJV
And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

I Corinthians 12:2 KJV
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

I Corinthians 14:25 KJV
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
I Corinthians 14:23 KJV
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
...........
These are things a pagan wants:
Being mad (muttering)
Having an evil spirit
Crystal ball information
Reading cards
Are all based on evil or farmilar spirits.
......
Speaking truth relating to God is what believers want to hear and understand.

IMHO
eddif

hello eddif, dirtfarmer here

No, The unbelievers in which tongues were a sign for, were Jewish believers that didn't believe that God had broken down the middle wall of partition and had made the Gentiles that believed and the Jews that believed into one body, the Church.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Luke and Paul.

Luke records that they had "not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit!”
and Paul says "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to him." but when you believe in Christ you are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

Who told you they had believed in Christ Jesus before even hearing that there is a Holy Spirit?

Who told you it was a requirement to know about the Holy spirit to be saved? I thought scripture mentions faith in Christ as the sole way to heaven? John 3:16

 

[eddif]

hello eddif, dirtfarmer here

No, The unbelievers in which tongues were a sign for, were Jewish believers that didn't believe that God had broken down the middle wall of partition and had made the Gentiles that believed and the Jews that believed into one body, the Church.

Acts 10:44 KJV
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 11:2 KJV
And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
......
It sure sounds like Jewish believers were giving Gentile believers a hard time.

(Which Believed)

3 Acts 15:5 KJV
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

....
Corinthians were pagans being instructed in Jewish heritage. IMHO

eddif

 

[chessman]

Who told you it was a requirement to know about the Holy spirit to be saved?

Jesus, Paul and other Biblical authority inspired by Holy Spirit:

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born of water and spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:5-6&version=LEB​

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed,” and no one is able to say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 12:3&version=LEB​

Do you think anyone is able to honestly confess "Jesus is Lord" without first hearing the Holy Spirit speak this truth to them?

I thought scripture mentions faith in Christ as the sole way to heaven? John 3:16

It is declared to be the sole way to Heaven and this faith in Christ is a gift from God.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you believe in the one whom that one sent.”​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=LEB

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit, and there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord, and there are varieties of activities, but the same God, who works all things in all people. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for what is beneficial to all.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 12:4-7&version=LEB

The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one who believes in Christ.