Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is not at salvation

[FreeGrace]

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

It is my belief, based on 1 Corinthians 14:22, that tongues were for a sign to unbelievers. Those unbelievers were Jews that were saved but didn't believe that God was bringing Gentiles and Jews together in one body, the Church, and there was no difference between Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ.
Acts 10:45 , " And they of the circumcision were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost,"
How did they know that the gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out on the Gentiles? Acts 10:46, " For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God, then answered Peter,"

Hello DF, FG here.

My understanding of 1 Cor 14:22 is that the gift of tongues (other human languages) were used to evangelize unbelievers, not that unbelievers would speak in tongues, if that's what you meant.

I didn't understand the sentence: "those unbelievers were Jews that were saved but didn't believe God was bringing Gentiles and Jews together in one body". By definition, an unbeliever is unsaved.

1 Cor 14 is interesting. v.22 says tongues was a sign for unbelievers, and then the next verse (23) indicates that unbelievers hearing people speaking in tongues will think everyone is "out of their minds".

And v.22 contrasts the gift of tongues with the gift of prophesy, which is for believers. Then in v.24 Paul points out that the gift of prophesy will convict unbelievers of their sins.

I go back to Acts 2 where the newly indwelt and filled believers spoke in other languages (tongues) and the many visitors to Jerusalem were all evangelized in their own languages, even though the believers only knew their own.

I think the issue with Cornelius was that the Jews were so conditioned to think of Gentiles as inferior to them, that they were surprised to see Gentiles having the same gift as they were given. I think this is reflected in Acts 10:18 - "...So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." They weren't prepared for such a thing.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hello DF, FG here.

My understanding of 1 Cor 14:22 is that the gift of tongues (other human languages) were used to evangelize unbelievers, not that unbelievers would speak in tongues, if that's what you meant.

I didn't understand the sentence: "those unbelievers were Jews that were saved but didn't believe God was bringing Gentiles and Jews together in one body". By definition, an unbeliever is unsaved.

1 Cor 14 is interesting. v.22 says tongues was a sign for unbelievers, and then the next verse (23) indicates that unbelievers hearing people speaking in tongues will think everyone is "out of their minds".

And v.22 contrasts the gift of tongues with the gift of prophesy, which is for believers. Then in v.24 Paul points out that the gift of prophesy will convict unbelievers of their sins.

I go back to Acts 2 where the newly indwelt and filled believers spoke in other languages (tongues) and the many visitors to Jerusalem were all evangelized in their own languages, even though the believers only knew their own.

I think the issue with Cornelius was that the Jews were so conditioned to think of Gentiles as inferior to them, that they were surprised to see Gentiles having the same gift as they were given. I think this is reflected in Acts 10:18 - "...So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." They weren't prepared for such a thing.

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

In Acts 10:45 what does the word astonished imply? Does it not mean that they saw something that they didn't believe, except they had to believe it now because that saw and heard for themselves? So, we can say that before they saw the Gentiles that spoke with other languages they believed God, but they were unbelievers in the salvation of the Gentiles. What convinced them that God was saving the Gentiles also, was it not that the Holy Spirit was given to them and they spoke with tongues and, at that point the Jews became believers, believers that God was saving the Gentiles also.

This is what Paul was stating in 1 Corinthians 14:22. In verse 24 "One that believeth not" is qualified by "unlearned". The unlearned that believes not is "convicted of all" because of prophesying, not because they were speaking in tongues. It was the believing Jews that the sign of tongues were given to show that God was also saving the Gentiles.
1 Corinthians 14:16 " Else when thou shall bless with the spirit. how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen, to thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest."

It is my belief that tongues were languages spoken by people of other countries that didn't understand Hebrew. In Acts 2:7-8 it states, " And they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not all Galileans? and how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"

 

[godsquadgeek]

Jesus, Paul and other Biblical authority inspired by Holy Spirit:

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born of water and spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:5-6&version=LEB​

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed,” and no one is able to say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 12:3&version=LEB​

Do you think anyone is able to honestly confess "Jesus is Lord" without first hearing the Holy Spirit speak this truth to them?


It is declared to be the sole way to Heaven and this faith in Christ is a gift from God.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you believe in the one whom that one sent.”​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=LEB

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit, and there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord, and there are varieties of activities, but the same God, who works all things in all people. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for what is beneficial to all.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 12:4-7&version=LEB

The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one who believes in Christ.

None of those verses answer the question, so again who told you that one must believe in the Holy spirit to be saved? We must have faith in the son, not faith in the spirit. The spirit did not die for our sins, and the Spirit testifies of Christ. John 15: 26-27. The Holy spirit works to draw us, but it is not a requirement to know about it to be saved. One can be completely oblivious to the Spirit yet have faith in what Jesus did for them. Nor is accepting the trinity required to be saved. One can be confused about the trinity, and still be saved. There are no scriptures stating one must accept the whole trinity to be saved, unless you have some? While yes it is important to believe this to be considered orthodox.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I asked this:
"Just curious. What is a "holiness person"?"

Not looking for battle, as I noted. Just curious.


Actually, the Lamb's book of life is closed. God already knows everyone's name in that book. From before the foundation of the world. So there are no new names added.

I passed where you first asked thinking you have already have been answered but. Background: Hot Shot Drivers are ticketed a great deal for speeding in Houston.

So it is that we needed a package before 1600 hrs. and called for a Hot Shot. My Bible was on my desk when he drove in the Warehouse with the package, about 15 minutes sooner than is possible, driving at the Speed Limit in Houston.

When i delivered the data to the Clerk and returned to tje warehouse je was thumbing through my Bible and asked me about mu Spiritual Status. I told him I was a Sinner Save by Grace to which he replied that he had not sinned in over four years because he was a Holiness Believer.

I explained that he had just broken that 4 year feat by
Speeding to deliver our package that quickly to which he responded with, "Oh, that is not sin, that is man's law and does not matter to God." These people ave Cherry Picked the Scripture to form Another Gospel.

 

[FreeGrace]

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

In Acts 10:45 what does the word astonished imply? Does it not mean that they saw something that they didn't believe, except they had to believe it now because that saw and heard for themselves? So, we can say that before they saw the Gentiles that spoke with other languages they believed God, but they were unbelievers in the salvation of the Gentiles.

My issue is with describing saved people (believers) as "unbelievers". I don't recall it was defined when you initially used it.

What convinced them that God was saving the Gentiles also, was it not that the Holy Spirit was given to them and they spoke with tongues and, at that point the Jews became believers, believers that God was saving the Gentiles also.

However, there are OT verses about Abraham blessing Gentiles as well. Wouldn't that include God's very salvation?

It is my belief that tongues were languages spoken by people of other countries that didn't understand Hebrew. In Acts 2:7-8 it states, " And they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not all Galileans? and how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"[/QUOTE]
Agreed.

 

[FreeGrace]

I passed where you first asked thinking you have already have been answered but. Background: Hot Shot Drivers are ticketed a great deal for speeding in Houston.

So it is that we needed a package before 1600 hrs. and called for a Hot Shot. My Bible was on my desk when he drove in the Warehouse with the package, about 15 minutes sooner than is possible, driving at the Speed Limit in Houston.

When i delivered the data to the Clerk and returned to tje warehouse je was thumbing through my Bible and asked me about mu Spiritual Status. I told him I was a Sinner Save by Grace to which he replied that he had not sinned in over four years because he was a Holiness Believer.

I explained that he had just broken that 4 year feat by
Speeding to deliver our package that quickly to which he responded with, "Oh, that is not sin, that is man's law and does not matter to God." These people ave Cherry Picked the Scripture to form Another Gospel.

Great story, th1b.taylor!! That's kinda what I thought regarding what a "holiness person" is.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Jesus, Paul and other Biblical authority inspired by Holy Spirit:

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly I say to you, unless someone is born of water and spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:5-6&version=LEB​

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed,” and no one is able to say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 12:3&version=LEB​

Do you think anyone is able to honestly confess "Jesus is Lord" without first hearing the Holy Spirit speak this truth to them?


It is declared to be the sole way to Heaven and this faith in Christ is a gift from God.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you believe in the one whom that one sent.”​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 6:29&version=LEB

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit, and there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord, and there are varieties of activities, but the same God, who works all things in all people. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for what is beneficial to all.​

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 12:4-7&version=LEB

The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one who believes in Christ.

Duplicate

 

[WIP]

This is the Theology Forum. The rules for this forum indicate that Scriprute references be provided to support the claims presented. This rule has been avoided in recent posts. Let's correct this.

 

[dirtfarmer]

My issue is with describing saved people (believers) as "unbelievers". I don't recall it was defined when you initially used it.


However, there are OT verses about Abraham blessing Gentiles as well. Wouldn't that include God's very salvation?

It is my belief that tongues were languages spoken by people of other countries that didn't understand Hebrew. In Acts 2:7-8 it states, " And they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not all Galileans? and how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"

Agreed.[/QUOTE]

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

I probably didn't define it.

Abraham was not a Jew, he was a Hebrew, the son of Eber. It through the promises to Abraham that the Gentiles are blessed.

Many don't agree, but I understand the "sands of the sea" refers to God's earthly people, the nation of Israel, and the "stars of the heavens" refers to God's heavenly people, the Church.

 

[eddif]

I think there is a difference in the New Jerusalem and Heaven. When we discuss kingdom. We start with John the Baptist.

Revelation 21:2 KJV
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The kingdom of God.
Luke 17:21 KJV
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Of course I do not use a 500 year old well established orderly proof.

Redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

Do you think anyone is able to honestly confess "Jesus is Lord" without first hearing the Holy Spirit speak this truth to them?

Well yes.
John 6:44 KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When you become aware of sins you Ned a savior. John prepared the way'to Jesus.

eddif

 

[dirtfarmer]

Well yes.
John 6:44 KJV
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When you become aware of sins you Ned a savior. John prepared the way'to Jesus.

eddif

hello eddif, dirtfarmer here

How do you understand John 16:7-10, " Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away the comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. Of sin because they believe not on me. Of righteousness because I go to the Father, and ye see me no more. Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."
These verses tell me that it is necessary to hear the Holy Spirit before salvation.

 

[eddif]

hello eddif, dirtfarmer here

How do you understand John 16:7-10, " Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away the comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. Of sin because they believe not on me. Of righteousness because I go to the Father, and ye see me no more. Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."
These verses tell me that it is necessary to hear the Holy Spirit before salvation.

You may think this is not related, but you asked.

Matthew 21:12 KJV
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

The physical Old Covenant temple has some hints toward us today. Shadows are not the place to study, but the reality in Christ Jesus.To think we are perfect and need no inward help seems strange. They needed power. They got power.

We do see through a glass darkly.

eddif

 

[eddif]

Hello DF, FG here.

My understanding of 1 Cor 14:22 is that the gift of tongues (other human languages) were used to evangelize unbelievers, not that unbelievers would speak in tongues, if that's what you meant.

I didn't understand the sentence: "those unbelievers were Jews that were saved but didn't believe God was bringing Gentiles and Jews together in one body". By definition, an unbeliever is unsaved.

1 Cor 14 is interesting. v.22 says tongues was a sign for unbelievers, and then the next verse (23) indicates that unbelievers hearing people speaking in tongues will think everyone is "out of their minds".

And v.22 contrasts the gift of tongues with the gift of prophesy, which is for believers. Then in v.24 Paul points out that the gift of prophesy will convict unbelievers of their sins.

I go back to Acts 2 where the newly indwelt and filled believers spoke in other languages (tongues) and the many visitors to Jerusalem were all evangelized in their own languages, even though the believers only knew their own.

I think the issue with Cornelius was that the Jews were so conditioned to think of Gentiles as inferior to them, that they were surprised to see Gentiles having the same gift as they were given. I think this is reflected in Acts 10:18 - "...So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." They weren't prepared for such a thing.

I basically liked your post.

This is just to expand the ones that heard in there own language at Pentecost.
Ezekiel 9:4 KJV
And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

These people were sent into foreign lands while Jerusalem was destroyed at the end of Malachi.

Ezekiel 11:16 KJV
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

So.
When Pentecost came these grievers over sin heard in their own foreign language. They might have had scriptures in Hebrew (?). To hear in their foreign language the mighty works would be a shock.

They believed in God but did not yet know Jesus. So, we can call them by a unique description.

This is in contrast to the then current permanent dwellers in Jerusalem (those who wanted Jesus dead.

Maybe it is trivia, but you can understand some saying they were drunk. Good guys outside Jerusalem (possibly students of scripture). Bad guys living in Jerusalem, that studied tradition.

eddif

 

[FreeGrace]

I basically liked your post.

This is just to expand the ones that heard in there own language at Pentecost.
Ezekiel 9:4 KJV
And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

These people were sent into foreign lands while Jerusalem was destroyed at the end of Malachi.

Ezekiel 11:16 KJV
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

So.
When Pentecost came these grievers over sin heard in their own foreign language. They might have had scriptures in Hebrew (?). To hear in their foreign language the mighty works would be a shock.

They believed in God but did not yet know Jesus. So, we can call them by a unique description.

This is in contrast to the then current permanent dwellers in Jerusalem (those who wanted Jesus dead.

Maybe it is trivia, but you can understand some saying they were drunk. Good guys outside Jerusalem (possibly students of scripture). Bad guys living in Jerusalem, that studied tradition.

eddif

Good points. Thanks.

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 14:5 KJV
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

A standard statement is:
Tongues plus interpretation equals prophecy.
If
The tongues are real
If the intrepreatation is real
If the message is correct.
Daniel 5:5 KJV
In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote.
6 Then the king's countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another.
7 The king cried aloud to bring in the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers. And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babylon, Whosoever shall read this writing, and shew me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom.
8 Then came in all the king's wise men: but they could not read the writing, nor make known to the king the interpretation thereof.
12 Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar: now let Daniel be called, and he will shew the interpretation.
25 And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
27 TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
28 PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

Why post this (with missing verses)?
Prophets had messages for people (part of the Jewish heritage).

We are discussing Jewish sons and daughters and Gentiles receiving this same sort of thing. Corinthians is trying to get Gentiles to understand the order of things.

Daniel is a good example of tongues plus interpretation.

Rednecks are limited ( got to appreciate Jewish heritage).
eddif

 

[godsquadgeek]

hello eddif, dirtfarmer here

How do you understand John 16:7-10, " Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away the comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment. Of sin because they believe not on me. Of righteousness because I go to the Father, and ye see me no more. Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."
These verses tell me that it is necessary to hear the Holy Spirit before salvation.

When you are led by the Holy spirit, do you always know it's Him? In the same way the Holy spirit works behind the scenes many times, and we would not know Him before salvation. There are no verses that say we must recognize the work of the Holy spirit before salvation.

 

[eddif]

When you are led by the Holy spirit, do you always know it's Him? In the same way the Holy spirit works behind the scenes many times, and we would not know Him before salvation. There are no verses that say we must recognize the work of the Holy spirit before salvation.

I thought John 6:44 fit pretty good as to how we get to Jesus for salvation.

I do not fully understand the goads Paul experienced before salvation.

I do understand Paul got healing and the Holy Spirit after he said Lord (in his conversation with Jesus).

We will wait for the scripture.

eddif

 

[dirtfarmer]

When you are led by the Holy spirit, do you always know it's Him? In the same way the Holy spirit works behind the scenes many times, and we would not know Him before salvation. There are no verses that say we must recognize the work of the Holy spirit before salvation.

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

How do you understand Romans 8:16, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." Are we not told in scripture to try the spirits to see if they be of God?

In my studies of scripture I find that we are to edify the body, not self.
1 Corinthians 14:4, " He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

Paul was not into self edification,2 Corinthians 12:19, " Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ, but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying."

Romans 15:2, " Let every one of us please his neighbor for his good to edification."

 

[godsquadgeek]

hello godsquadgeek, dirtfarmer here

How do you understand Romans 8:16, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." Are we not told in scripture to try the spirits to see if they be of God?

In my studies of scripture I find that we are to edify the body, not self.
1 Corinthians 14:4, " He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."

Paul was not into self edification,2 Corinthians 12:19, " Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ, but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying."

Romans 15:2, " Let every one of us please his neighbor for his good to edification."

I was under the influence that you believed the Holy spirit was recognizable before salvation, none of the verses mention prior to salvation, and.as I said before no verses mention that one fully comprehends the spirit prior to salvation. Can you prove this with the Bible?