Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[ravindran_eee]

Because I was a pastor of several churches, the subject of the Baptism "of" the Holy Spirit came up often. I had to study, study, study. I had to give Truth to the flock, not just Baptist traditon. I believeI I found a slight difference in the Baptism. The word "of" and the word "in". IMO, The Baptism "of" the Holy Spirit happened at Salvation, just as some posts point out. Now, the Baptism "in" the Holy Spirit is something completely different. When a Christian has matured in his faith, and feels God is leading him to witness for Him in some fashion, he needs to be Baptized "in" the Holy Spirit. The difference is, the first Baptism is for regeneration and placement into the family of God. The second Baptism is to be placed "into" the ministry and power of the Holy Spirit. IMO God gives everyone at least one gift at Salvation. When a believer prays for power to minister, whether they know it or not, they are really asking to be placed into the ministry of the Holy Spirit. And then they realize gifts and power that they never had before.Tongues is simply a tool to be used for prayer and witness, and sometimes a sign. It certainly is not a sign of Salvation. To edify an assembly, they need to understand in their own tongue. Love is the greatest gift known to man.

I could say volumes on this subject but I thought that this simple explanation might prompt others to examine for their information.

Dear Brother.. I am probably a novice! I also believed that "in" and "of" made a significant difference.. But these were originally written in Greek right.. What is your view on the argument put forward by Wayne Grudem? Hope I can share this link,

http://www.harvestdavenport.org/Content/10198/266889.pdf

 

[iLOVE]

A person that has been saved will use the word "God". A person that has been filled with the "Holy Spirit" is more specfic. They will use the name of "Jesus". This is how you test the spirit - by their fruits.

 

[Chopper]

Dear Brother.. I am probably a novice! I also believed that "in" and "of" made a significant difference.. But these were originally written in Greek right.. What is your view on the argument put forward by Wayne Grudem? Hope I can share this link,

http://www.harvestdavenport.org/Content/10198/266889.pdf

I don't have time right now to examine that web site. I have heard just about every teaching on this subject. Gk. ev is in. that is what the original says.

 

[th1b.taylor]

1 Corinthians 12:31;
"Now eagerly desire the greater gifts".

This seems to be a verse that is spoken but not taken to heart.
If we eagerly desire something from God, we will persistently pray for it.
Hopefully, we will believe that we will receive it.

How often do you pray for more gifts than what God has already given you?
Should we be satisfied with what God has given us?
What does this verse say to you?
Is it a dead verse to you?

Are we trying to explain away the value of these gifts?
What is preventing us from fervently seeking more from God?


It's a new year.
A good resolution is to ask God for more.
More of everything that we lack that will help us to serve Him better and to praise Him more and more everyday.

For the most part, the Christian World has failed itself. Just as you have alluded, belief is critical, even and especially, today. I fell off the side of my truck a year after my wife was released for a degenerative spine and we knew of no way to continue because, although, we had earned an excess of income, we always found folks in need of our excess and had saved none.

We have been without earned income for almost ten years now and have not missed a meal yet. Our AC United was serviced by a Tech last fall and he wanted to know when we had the unit installed because it is in such great condition. We try, always, to remember to thank God for blessing us and my wife and I, since 1990, have lived, fully, dependant on God and God has blessed us over and over.

I admit, I have never needed to magnify myself since I walked off stage, Jan. 1, 1990 and thus, have never desired the gift of tongues. God appears to have a very good grasp on my Texas slang and we have been known to communicate for better than a couple of hours at a time... in Texan.

One of my aunts is responsible for my earliest exposure and fright of Tongues and since that time I have found very few that use the gift of tongues Biblically.

I will say that the Gift of Tongues, because of it's imitation, appears to do more damage to the Churches image than any other sin committed inside the Church. No Gift from the Spirit should ever suffer this abuse. In my 24 years, as a Christian, I have seen every one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit abused but this one receives the greatest abuse.

As I said, earlier, I learned to immitate speaking in Tongues as a child and have been offered lessons in ?how to speak? in tongues. These things are shameful and must not be accepted.

Children must be taught not to tempt God and nobody should ever think they need to ?prime? a gift from the Spirit.

Good topic Allen

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

For the most part, the Christian World has failed itself. Just as you have alluded, belief is critical, even and especially, today. I fell off the side of my truck a year after my wife was released for a degenerative spine and we knew of no way to continue because, although, we had earned an excess of income, we always found folks in need of our excess and had saved none.

We have been without earned income for almost ten years now and have not missed a meal yet. Our AC United was serviced by a Tech last fall and he wanted to know when we had the unit installed because it is in such great condition. We try, always, to remember to thank God for blessing us and my wife and I, since 1990, have lived, fully, dependant on God and God has blessed us over and over.

I admit, I have never needed to magnify myself since I walked off stage, Jan. 1, 1990 and thus, have never desired the gift of tongues. God appears to have a very good grasp on my Texas slang and we have been known to communicate for better than a couple of hours at a time... in Texan.

One of my aunts is responsible for my earliest exposure and fright of Tongues and since that time I have found very few that use the gift of tongues Biblically.

I will say that the Gift of Tongues, because of it's imitation, appears to do more damage to the Churches image than any other sin committed inside the Church. No Gift from the Spirit should ever suffer this abuse. In my 24 years, as a Christian, I have seen every one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit abused but this one receives the greatest abuse.

As I said, earlier, I learned to immitate speaking in Tongues as a child and have been offered lessons in ?how to speak? in tongues. These things are shameful and must not be accepted.

Children must be taught not to tempt God and nobody should ever think they need to ?prime? a gift from the Spirit.

Good topic Allen

You talk to God...inTexan?
Yes, our God is an awesome God!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me I hope I don't sound arrogant in my comments!



My only disagreement is that we can know the heart of a person only by the manifestation of fruits.. Not by the gifts.. And tongues is a gift.. I read somewhere online that Katy Perry and Miley Cyrus speak in tongues! I come from India.. Hinduism is the main religion there.. Hindus also perform Glossolalia.. It is common in pagan cultures. And I believe with all my heart that Bible never mentions that speaking in tongues is a sign of being baptized in Holy Spirit. It is something we infer based on the pattern of events. But if look at Bible, there are many occasions where speaking of tongues is not mentioned. I am borrowing the list from John Piper (8:36; Acts 9:17-19; 13:12, 48; 14:1; 16:14; 17:4, 34.



I absolutely agree that every believer should pray for such experiences, that is, being filled with Holy Spirit. It definitely empowers the believer. I don't question that at all. My only point is, we cannot have 2 class Christians! One just saved and other saved plus baptized in Holy Spirit. It is possible for a believer to be a better witness, more mature and more closer to God without having any experiences compared to someone who has such experiences. That is my whole point Classical pentecostalism has unfortunately led to this 2 class Christianism.

I attend a Pentecostal church and attend many revival meetings. Though I disagree slightly on theology side, I think it is important for us to desire for such experiences of being filled with Holy Spirit.

Amen! But I'm going to play Teacher again, be careful with that statement about the classes of Christians and after you examine what I'm about show you.

Many go so far as to teach, from the pulpit, that anyone that is saved is a member of the Bride of Christ and this, in spite of Matthew 22:1-14 where we are shown, in the parable, that there will be many more guests than the Bride.

This is the reason I am oft caught teaching that there are two classes of Saved People; a. The Bride of Christ a.k.a. Christians and b. Saved Men and Women.

Since some differ with me and term all the Saved as Christians, I oft forget but, it is often needed to reference Matt. 22 to define our terms.

I'm to sick to ever get to India but I will see you when we gather on the Bank of the Jordan. If you ever hear that Jeff Mills is there, go and make a point to tell him, the old soldier, Bill Taylor recommended him. He is a Pentecostal Missionary from England, teaching in Guatemala and sometimes in India. He's a good man.

God bless.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You talk to God...inTexan?
Yes, our God is an awesome God!

You just set me to giggling like an old woman.

 

[th1b.taylor]

A person that has been saved will use the word "God". A person that has been filled with the "Holy Spirit" is more specfic. They will use the name of "Jesus". This is how you test the spirit - by their fruits.

I'm not that certain of that being Iron Clad.

 

[reba]

You just set me to giggling like an old woman.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
​

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[ravindran_eee]

Amen! But I'm going to play Teacher again, be careful with that statement about the classes of Christians and after you examine what I'm about show you.

Many go so far as to teach, from the pulpit, that anyone that is saved is a member of the Bride of Christ and this, in spite of Matthew 22:1-14 where we are shown, in the parable, that there will be many more guests than the Bride.

This is the reason I am oft caught teaching that there are two classes of Saved People; a. The Bride of Christ a.k.a. Christians and b. Saved Men and Women.

I still don't think we have Bride of Christ and Saved people are 2 different classes.. Mathew 22 just continues from the end of chapter 21.. The context is Jesus talking in parables to Pharisees how the Jews rejected Jesus and how the gentiles are going to be crafted into the Covenant. In the parable of feast, the invited refers to the Jews. They totally ignore the invitation and kill the servants. So Israel and the temple is doomed for destruction. Then people from the street are invited - referring to gentiles. And finally the man who is not in wedding garment. 14th verse says "For many are called, but few are chosen". Today, we see hundreds and thousands of people attending revival meetings and raising their hands and walking up the aisle for altar calls. But are they really turning away from their sinful ways? I doubt if everyone does. Are they reflecting the fruits of the spirit? It is not enough to be invited and just be with the crowd of believers. Everyone should be ready by bearing the fruits. If thorns is all we grow, we will be burnt at the day of judgement. So I see the Bridge of Christ as every believer called by Christ, washed in the blood of Christ and showed fruits. Not because they raised their hand in a service! But chosen by God.

I'm to sick to ever get to India but I will see you when we gather on the Bank of the Jordan. If you ever hear that Jeff Mills is there, go and make a point to tell him, the old soldier, Bill Taylor recommended him. He is a Pentecostal Missionary from England, teaching in Guatemala and sometimes in India. He's a good man.

Will do so But the only problem is, I am not in India! I live in New Jersey.. Moved here for work.. Have been living here for last 4 years.

 

[Edward]

Interesting. I don't know why tongues gets such a bad rap. I have been offered to be taught how to speak in tongues, and that just seemed...weird, and wrong. Tongues is the Holy Spirit speaking and we are to never put words in Gods mouth. That seemed very wrong.

Let me ask a question. Is it possible to be baptized into the Holy Spirit, and not realize it? Personally, I would think not, but I have a very respected brother in Christ that told me that he can tell that I have been. He is more mature than I am and better read so I tend to take what he says very seriously, but, I just don't know. I would think that being baptized into the Spirit would be a memorable occasion and not something that would be in question within ones self.

 

[Chopper]

Interesting. I don't know why tongues gets such a bad rap. I have been offered to be taught how to speak in tongues, and that just seemed...weird, and wrong. Tongues is the Holy Spirit speaking and we are to never put words in Gods mouth. That seemed very wrong.

Let me ask a question. Is it possible to be baptized into the Holy Spirit, and not realize it? Personally, I would think not, but I have a very respected brother in Christ that told me that he can tell that I have been. He is more mature than I am and better read so I tend to take what he says very seriously, but, I just don't know. I would think that being baptized into the Spirit would be a memorable occasion and not something that would be in question within ones self.

It has been my experience Ed, that there are people who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and did not know it. That person could discern your position in the Holy Spirit. Some have that capability, it is a gift. In the little bit that you have posted I can tell that you are full of the Holy Spirit. I'm quite sure if we met in person that I would say the same thing as your friend. God bless you Ed, enjoy how the ministry of the Holy Spirit works through you.

 

[Edward]

It has been my experience Ed, that there are people who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit and did not know it. That person could discern your position in the Holy Spirit. Some have that capability, it is a gift. In the little bit that you have posted I can tell that you are full of the Holy Spirit. I'm quite sure if we met in person that I would say the same thing as your friend. God bless you Ed, enjoy how the ministry of the Holy Spirit works through you.

Thank you for the encouraging words brother. I do think that many times other people can discern things about us that we can not see ourselves for our own personal blinders of ego and pride and so forth. So I can not reject what the man said to me and say that he is wrong, but at the same time, I hesitate to go around saying that I have been baptized into the Holy Spirit for obvious reasons also. I do know for a fact that I have received gifts, and an anointing for a task once. I also am pretty darn sure that I have received a gift of discernment, not necessarily discernment of spirits but more of a generalized discernment.

This question does not bother me per se, but every time the Baptism in the Holy Spirit comes up into conversation somewhere I get curious again, lol.

 

[Edward]

Almost every time I pray for something, the thought occurs to me...how much have we been given, that we do not even realize or perceive?

 

[Chopper]

Almost every time I pray for something, the thought occurs to me...how much have we been given, that we do not even realize or perceive?

Many people don't know that they have a gift until they, by faith, enter a different field of service for the Lord. Don't be afraid to try new ministries, you will be surprized at the power that flows through you. If you want to be sure, ask Jesus to baptize you into the Holy Spirit if you are not yet. He will!!!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Let me ask a question. Is it possible to be baptized into the Holy Spirit, and not realize it? Personally, I would think not, but I have a very respected brother in Christ that told me that he can tell that I have been. He is more mature than I am and better read so I tend to take what he says very seriously, but, I just don't know. I would think that being baptized into the Spirit would be a memorable occasion and not something that would be in question within ones self.

Yes sir! We are commanded "not to quench the Spirit." If we are saved we are filled with the Spirit but then we must not quench Him. When we quench the Spirit, we do not exhibit the fruits as opposed to allowing the Spirit to live through us, where the fruits of (the gifts of) the Spirit are showing in our lives.

The experience is, indeed memorable, I was on stage, singing Aulde Lang Sine, the moment I was indwelt and such a peace covered my soul that I walked away from a, very, very needed, pay check that night and appeared in Church the very next time the doors were open. My first memorable sin after that was a product of quenching the Spirit and not telling a family my testimony.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
​

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Are you saying I cause him longsuffering?

 

[Eugene]

Because I was a pastor of several churches, the subject of the Baptism "of" the Holy Spirit came up often. I had to study, study, study. I had to give Truth to the flock, not just Baptist traditon. I believeI I found a slight difference in the Baptism. The word "of" and the word "in". IMO, The Baptism "of" the Holy Spirit happened at Salvation, just as some posts point out. Now, the Baptism "in" the Holy Spirit is something completely different. When a Christian has matured in his faith, and feels God is leading him to witness for Him in some fashion, he needs to be Baptized "in" the Holy Spirit. The difference is, the first Baptism is for regeneration and placement into the family of God. The second Baptism is to be placed "into" the ministry and power of the Holy Spirit. IMO God gives everyone at least one gift at Salvation. When a believer prays for power to minister, whether they know it or not, they are really asking to be placed into the ministry of the Holy Spirit. And then they realize gifts and power that they never had before.Tongues is simply a tool to be used for prayer and witness, and sometimes a sign. It certainly is not a sign of Salvation. To edify an assembly, they need to understand in their own tongue. Love is the greatest gift known to man.

I could say volumes on this subject but I thought that this simple explanation might prompt others to examine for their information.

I agree, and certainly like the manner in which you worded it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Are you saying I cause him longsuffering?

I was prayed over in 1986 and nothing happened.
I certainly had gifts and used them quite effectively.
But after 13 years, in 1999, I was prayed over again, and a few days later my life changed.
More gifts, more praise, much more useful to serving God,
My prayer life and praise increased dramatically as well as other gifts.

I agree, someone may have this gift without speaking in tongues, yet receiving tongues is a gift from God.
If he's giving it out, why not stick your heart out?

 

[Chopper]

Yes sir! We are commanded "not to quench the Spirit." If we are saved we are filled with the Spirit but then we must not quench Him. When we quench the Spirit, we do not exhibit the fruits as opposed to allowing the Spirit to live through us, where the fruits of (the gifts of) the Spirit are showing in our lives.

The experience is, indeed memorable, I was on stage, singing Aulde Lang Sine, the moment I was indwelt and such a peace covered my soul that I walked away from a, very, very needed, pay check that night and appeared in Church the very next time the doors were open. My first memorable sin after that was a product of quenching the Spirit and not telling a family my testimony.

You know Bill, big gifts come in small packages. Maybe your name should change to 1 ton taylor!