Baptism

[Corn Pop]

Faith is belief, its beliving in things not seen. Hope and trust.

Why are some people so obssesed with baptism like water saves people?.

Christ saves lives, not water. Abraham believed God, he believed God would deliever through Christ even he did not see it he believed God and thats faith and he was credited with righteousness.

The thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him, he was down and had no one else to turn to for comfort and support but Christ, he decided to believe and put his hope and trust in Christs hands, and Christ credited him with righteousness for having that faith, he didnt get dunked in water or eat a slice of bread.

Water baptisim is good its a good thing, but its not needed to be saved and sometimes people freak out they not baptised in water and question there faith and if they saved. Our belief is not in a river of water, its in God alone.


Christ is the living water, he is the bread of life, faith in Christ is more important and more worthy than believing being dunked in some water saves lives.

 

[donadams]

The natural birth representing the water could also be verified when Nicodemus asked Jesus how he could possibly enter back into his mother's womb.

I don’t think so, that was a mistaken idea

The whole thing is a new birth
New creation
Spiritual supernatural by the power of God’s grace

Thanks

 

[donadams]

But you never explained what penance is as you only gave verses that have nothing to do with penance.

Here is the definition:
voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

Now, where is this found in the Bible?

Prayer, alms, fasting constitutes penance!

Suffering is also a Christian requirement
Adam and Eve repented and God gave them penance
By the sweat of your brow shall you bring forth bread, and mulitiplied the birth pangs

Phil 1:29 not call to “faith alone”!

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

 

[donadams]

But you never explained what penance is as you only gave verses that have nothing to do with penance.

Here is the definition:
voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

Now, where is this found in the Bible?

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Prayer, alms, fasting constitutes penance!

Suffering is also a Christian requirement
Adam and Eve repented and God gave them penance

Where in the bible is it written that they repented ?
It looks more like Adam blaming Eve.
You are changing scripture to accommodate your particular "church's" dogma.

By the sweat of your brow shall you bring forth bread, and mulitiplied the birth pangs

Phil 1:29 not call to “faith alone”!

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Have you "ceased from sin" ?

 

[for_his_glory]

Prayer, alms, fasting constitutes penance!

Suffering is also a Christian requirement
Adam and Eve repented and God gave them penance
By the sweat of your brow shall you bring forth bread, and mulitiplied the birth pangs

Phil 1:29 not call to “faith alone”!

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

So what you are saying about penance, by the definition I gave, is that we have to afflict pain upon our body for the sin we commited before God will forgive us!!! This would throw repentance before the Lord right out of the scriptures.

I know this is a Catholic doctrine, but a God of mercy and grace would not want us to harm our body first before we humble ourselves before Him asking Him to forgive us our sin as we repent of it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Once again these scriptures have nothing to do with penance nor do they say anything about repenting. You are grasping at air to try and prove your point.


REPENT - change, transform, transfigure, reconsider

Repentance gives us that opportunity to receive a new beginning in our life as God wipes away all our past sins and remembers them no more. Repentance allows the door to be opened for Christ to come into our lives so we may receive his Holy Spirit to help guide us in our walk with the Lord and to show us a life that is pleasing to the Father. It’s through the Holy Spirit that we come into a better understanding of Gods word by allowing His Spirit to teach us all things we need to know for the purpose and time of ministry to ourselves and to others.

There is only one way for God to recognize who are his and that is by us opening our heart and confessing we are sinners and knowing that we need to make a change in our lives in order for us to have eternal life with the Father. It’s not our will anymore to make decisions in our lives, but is now we allowing Gods will to make a betterment in our lives. As we follow in the footsteps of Christ we are now dead to self and alive now through the grace of God who wants nothing more than to shower us with his blessings as we surrender all to him through the transfiguration of our heart through repentance of our sins.

When we ask for our sins to be forgiven they are not only forgiven, but they are also forgotten. Our hearts become renewed again and we are given the Holy Spirit, which is the that Spirit of God made flesh in Jesus and given to us for comfort and learning. We receive the Holy Spirit at the time of repentance by asking Jesus into our hearts. Some like to be baptized in actual water, which there is nothing wrong with that as it is an outward appearance to others that you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 for the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

​

 

[donadams]

So what you are saying about penance, by the definition I gave, is that we have to afflict pain upon our body for the sin we commited before God will forgive us!!! This would throw repentance before the Lord right out of the scriptures.

I know this is a Catholic doctrine, but a God of mercy and grace would not want us to harm our body first before we humble ourselves before Him asking Him to forgive us our sin as we repent of it.

You are confused

We are not allowed to harm our body, even health nuts practice fasting to increase heath, that said you have the rest wrong as well, grace and mercy are available to us on true repentance and humility, God have mercy on me a poor sinner, but there are two aspects here, mercy and justice, mercy by humility and repentance, but God’s justice must be satisfied, and Christ by His suffering atones and expiates sin but He requires our participation and this is also part of our sanctification, and we cannot expect to persevere in justification without penance, prayer (ask and you shall receive, He also says pray and watch that you enter not into temptation) and deny Thy self and take up the royal way of the cross to follow Jesus!

Hope it helps any more questions are always welcome

 

[donadams]

Once again these scriptures have nothing to do with penance nor do they say anything about repenting. You are grasping at air to try and prove your point.


REPENT - change, transform, transfigure, reconsider

Repentance gives us that opportunity to receive a new beginning in our life as God wipes away all our past sins and remembers them no more. Repentance allows the door to be opened for Christ to come into our lives so we may receive his Holy Spirit to help guide us in our walk with the Lord and to show us a life that is pleasing to the Father. It’s through the Holy Spirit that we come into a better understanding of Gods word by allowing His Spirit to teach us all things we need to know for the purpose and time of ministry to ourselves and to others.

There is only one way for God to recognize who are his and that is by us opening our heart and confessing we are sinners and knowing that we need to make a change in our lives in order for us to have eternal life with the Father. It’s not our will anymore to make decisions in our lives, but is now we allowing Gods will to make a betterment in our lives. As we follow in the footsteps of Christ we are now dead to self and alive now through the grace of God who wants nothing more than to shower us with his blessings as we surrender all to him through the transfiguration of our heart through repentance of our sins.

When we ask for our sins to be forgiven they are not only forgiven, but they are also forgotten. Our hearts become renewed again and we are given the Holy Spirit, which is the that Spirit of God made flesh in Jesus and given to us for comfort and learning. We receive the Holy Spirit at the time of repentance by asking Jesus into our hearts. Some like to be baptized in actual water, which there is nothing wrong with that as it is an outward appearance to others that you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 for the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

​

Only by faith and baptism are we united to Christ in grace

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5

Faith alone even all faith avails NOTHING! 1 cor 13:2

 

[donadams]

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!


Christ instituted the holy church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation. (repent and believe the gospel) with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Matt 28:19

 

[for_his_glory]

We are not allowed to harm our body

I am not confused as that is what the definition of penance means as you say we have to do penance first before we repent of our sins.

 

[for_his_glory]

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Why do you throw these two verses out of the Bible? Anything beyond these two verses makes God's salvation by works.

 

[donadams]

I am not confused as that is what the definition of penance means as you say we have to do penance first before we repent of our sins.

No after repentance

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Why do you throw these two verses out of the Bible? Anything beyond these two verses makes God's salvation by works.

I don’t, but you misunderstand them

Jn 3:16 he believes is in a present tense, you must believe and continue to believe until death to be saved Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

And baptism is included in what must be believed for salvation Mk 16:16

Eph 8
Refers to redemption not salvation

Redemption
Justification
Sanctification
Salvation proper
Are all very different things

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

eph 2:8 does not refer to you’re salvation it’s already past tense when Paul wrote it so it refers something that has already occurred, the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from our involvement. “Not of yourselves”

Christian faith includes baptism Jn 3:5 by water and the spirit and not faith alone. Mk 16:16 acts 2:38 acts 8:26 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21

And charity 1 cor 13:2 and 1 cor 13/13

Salvation is not an only doctrine a doctrine to be believed, but a sacrifice / atonement, and union with the person of Christ the mediator, members of Christ!


Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Glorification:

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[for_his_glory]

No after repentance

There is no need for penance after we repented of our sin, God forgave us that sin and remembers it no more at that time. God does not tell us in scripture to afflict ourself after He has already forgiven and forgotten.

 

[donadams]

I am not confused as that is what the definition of penance means as you say we have to do penance first before we repent of our sins.

Examples of Christian virtue

Deny Thyself:
Pray and watch, watch over or gaurd thy senses.

Mortify curiosity etc.

Governance of the senses
Don’t rest you eyes on the opposite sex, don’t be immodest in dress so that lust may not be enkindled.

Same with the practice of virtues opposite of all the deadly sins and vices.

Offer it up
Any suffering, discomfort, disappointment etc. say My Jesus it is for love of thee!

What is lacking in the sufferings of Christ? Our participation!

How can you be a Christian and not know about these things?

There is no need for penance after we repented of our sin, God forgave us that sin and remembers it no more at that time. God does not tell us in scripture to afflict ourself after He has already forgiven and forgotten.

there are two parts or two things involved in sin
1)Mercy: forgiveness of those who have true repentance true sorrow for sin. (the passion and cross produce this true sorrow and should be our constant meditation)
2) justice: punishment due for sin cos God has been offended.
Simple Example:
A boy breaks a window with is baseball, full of sorrow he tells his father and his father forgives (mercy) but says you’re gonna have to give up your allowance and work to pay for the window. (Justice) God is mercy and forgives on true repentance but expects us to participate in the retribution and to do penance and apply remedies provided by Christ!

More questions welcome

 

[GodsGrace]

No after repentance


I don’t, but you misunderstand them

Jn 3:16 he believes is in a present tense, you must believe and continue to believe until death to be saved Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

And baptism is included in what must be believed for salvation Mk 16:16

Eph 8
Refers to redemption not salvation

Redemption
Justification
Sanctification
Salvation proper
Are all very different things

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

eph 2:8 does not refer to you’re salvation it’s already past tense when Paul wrote it so it refers something that has already occurred, the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from our involvement. “Not of yourselves”

Christian faith includes baptism Jn 3:5 by water and the spirit and not faith alone. Mk 16:16 acts 2:38 acts 8:26 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21

And charity 1 cor 13:2 and 1 cor 13/13

Salvation is not an only doctrine a doctrine to be believed, but a sacrifice / atonement, and union with the person of Christ the mediator, members of Christ!


Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Glorification:

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

It's this talk of suffering that cannot be understood by for_his_glory and others that might be reading along.
Please explain it better or don't mention it at all.
There's so much misunderstanding here,,,,,

 

[donadams]

H
God will provide the sacrifice. Gen 22:8

Christ is the sacrifice of God. Jn 1:29

Since we are united to Christ, guess what, take up Thy cross and follow me. Matt 16:24 rom 8:17 2 Tim 2:12Phil 1:29 col 1:24

Onward Christian solder!




A Christian must keep the lower carnal passions in check and subjected to the intellect and will, to accomplish the will of God.

Deny thyself gaurd the senses to prevent vice and to practice virtue.

Pray and watch so as not to enter into temptation.

We belong to God, purchased at the price of the blood of Jesus Christ.

The Curse of the carnal worldling no self control.

Gifts and fruits of the spirit!

God is the source of all good, the initial grace that enables us to do His holy will, ez 36:25-27 Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing, so with christ we can do all things, Phil 4:13 all things are possible with God, Lk 1:37 my grace is sufficient for you, 2 cor 12:9

Questions welcome as always

 

[eddif]

I have not kept up with this thread. That may be a shame.

I will try something from outward
Ceremonial to inward spiritual

Sprinkling
Washing
Sackcloth (abrasive)
Sweat as drops of blood (metabolic?)
Jesus had his kidneys pierced
The pierced side revealed water near heart

The steps were Jewish and Christian

You can add a lot of other things in between the few I put in the list.

Lite emotional to extreme anguish.
Somewhere along the path we have a heart transplant and a new mind.

Not even to forget the living water flowing out of us.

Immersion into:
The Father - repentance (all about God)
The Son - salvation (all about the Son)
The Holy Spirit - empowerment to Witness
(All about the Holy Spirit)

Baptism is not just a ceremony, but deeper and deeper. Not to even back up to Repentance after you have gone through it all. (Hebrews 6)

One baptism, but there are different levels(?).

Mississippi redneck
eddif