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Baptism

Corn Pop

Corn Pop

Member
Faith is belief, its beliving in things not seen. Hope and trust.

Why are some people so obssesed with baptism like water saves people?.

Christ saves lives, not water. Abraham believed God, he believed God would deliever through Christ even he did not see it he believed God and thats faith and he was credited with righteousness.

The thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him, he was down and had no one else to turn to for comfort and support but Christ, he decided to believe and put his hope and trust in Christs hands, and Christ credited him with righteousness for having that faith, he didnt get dunked in water or eat a slice of bread.

Water baptisim is good its a good thing, but its not needed to be saved and sometimes people freak out they not baptised in water and question there faith and if they saved. Our belief is not in a river of water, its in God alone.


Christ is the living water, he is the bread of life, faith in Christ is more important and more worthy than believing being dunked in some water saves lives.
 
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donadams said:
Self-denial suffering Matt 10:38 Phil 1:29
Prayer matt 6:5-13 Matt 7:7
Alms Matt 6:4
Fasting Matt 6:16
Practice virtues faith hope charity 1 cor 13:13
Humility Matt 11:29
Click to expand...
That's not what Acts 2:38 states.
Do YOU have a bible that states Peter said DO PENANCE
instead of REPENT??
 
donadams said:
I was not referring to acts 2:38 only answering a general question
Click to expand...
Maria1217 posted Acts 2:38 as Peter saying the disciples had to do penance.
I've never seen any bible version state this.
Thought you were answering to another member asking her about this.
Let's see what Maria says.
 

Wycliffe Bible​

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, Do ye penance [Penance, he said, do ye], and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, into remission of your sins; and ye shall take the gift of the Holy Ghost.




Matthew 3:2
and said, Do ye penance, for the kingdom of heavens shall approach.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  1. Matthew 3:8
    Therefore do ye worthy fruits of penance,
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. Matthew 3:11
    I wash you in water [Soothly I christen you in water], into penance; but he that shall come after me is stronger than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you [he shall baptize, or christen, you] in the Holy Ghost and [in] fire.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  3. Matthew 4:17
    From that time Jesus began to preach, and [to] say, Do ye penance, for the kingdom of heavens shall come nigh [for the realm of heaven hath nighed].
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  4. Matthew 9:13
    But go ye, and learn what it is, I will mercy, and not sacrifice; for I came, not to call rightful men [forsooth I came, not to call rightwise men], but sinful men to penance.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  5. Matthew 11:20
    Then Jesus began to say reproof to cities, in which full many works of power of him were done [in which full many virtues of him were done], for they did not penance.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  6. Matthew 11:21
    Woe to thee! Chorazin, woe to thee! Bethsaida; for if the works of power [for if the virtues] that be done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, sometime they had done penancein haircloth and ashes.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  7. Matthew 12:41
    Men of Nineveh shall rise in doom with this generation, and shall condemn it; for they did penance in the preaching of Jonas, and lo! here [is] a greater than Jonas.
 
King Dan of Great the 1st said:
Faith is belief, its beliving in things not seen. Hope and trust.

Why are some people so obssesed with baptism like water saves people?.

Christ saves lives, not water. Abraham believed God, he believed God would deliever through Christ even he did not see it he believed God and thats faith and he was credited with righteousness.

The thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him, he was down and had no one else to turn to for comfort and support but Christ, he decided to believe and put his hope and trust in Christs hands, and Christ credited him with righteousness for having that faith, he didnt get dunked in water or eat a slice of bread.

Water baptisim is good its a good thing, but its not needed to be saved and sometimes people freak out they not baptised in water and question there faith and if they saved. Our belief is not in a river of water, its in God alone.


Christ is the living water, he is the bread of life, faith in Christ is more important and more worthy than believing being dunked in some water saves lives.
Click to expand...
Jesus did say to get baptized.

Also, in John 3:5 Jesus states that one must be born of water and the spirit.
Some scholars believe this means natural birth (the water I mean)
and some believe it means baptism.

I tend to believe that we really should be baptized.
 
donadams said:

Wycliffe Bible​

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, Do ye penance [Penance, he said, do ye], and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, into remission of your sins; and ye shall take the gift of the Holy Ghost.




Matthew 3:2
and said, Do ye penance, for the kingdom of heavens shall approach.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  1. Matthew 3:8
    Therefore do ye worthy fruits of penance,
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. Matthew 3:11
    I wash you in water [Soothly I christen you in water], into penance; but he that shall come after me is stronger than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you [he shall baptize, or christen, you] in the Holy Ghost and [in] fire.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  3. Matthew 4:17
    From that time Jesus began to preach, and [to] say, Do ye penance, for the kingdom of heavens shall come nigh [for the realm of heaven hath nighed].
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  4. Matthew 9:13
    But go ye, and learn what it is, I will mercy, and not sacrifice; for I came, not to call rightful men [forsooth I came, not to call rightwise men], but sinful men to penance.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  5. Matthew 11:20
    Then Jesus began to say reproof to cities, in which full many works of power of him were done [in which full many virtues of him were done], for they did not penance.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  6. Matthew 11:21
    Woe to thee! Chorazin, woe to thee! Bethsaida; for if the works of power [for if the virtues] that be done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, sometime they had done penancein haircloth and ashes.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  7. Matthew 12:41
    Men of Nineveh shall rise in doom with this generation, and shall condemn it; for they did penance in the preaching of Jonas, and lo! here [is] a greater than Jonas.
Click to expand...
Thanks Don.
That's a really old bible.
We know so much more now and have new material that is used to translate the manuscripts or scolls we have available to us.

All my modern bibles use the word REPENT, even the Catholic ones and even one commented by Dr. Scott Hahn.
I think we have to go with Repent, which also reminds me of Matthew when Jesus said to repent because the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Matthew 4:17

Could you check that out in the Wycliff, see what it states?
Thanks.


Forget it.
I checked.
It says DO PENANCE.
 
Last edited:
donadams said:
Self-denial suffering Matt 10:38 Phil 1:29
Prayer matt 6:5-13 Matt 7:7
Alms Matt 6:4
Fasting Matt 6:16
Practice virtues faith hope charity 1 cor 13:13
Humility Matt 11:29
Click to expand...
None of those verses have anything to do with repenting of your sins before the Lord.

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There are two different baptisms. One being the baptism of John for repentance (outward appearance) preparing the way of the Lord and the other the Baptism of Christ for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
wondering said:
I believe that was translated from the Latin?

Do you believe that doing penance and repenting are separate?
Or does one require the other?
Click to expand...
That’s correct. The Douay-Rheims Bible is an English translation of the Latin Vulgate.

Penance involves more than repentance. For example, after Baptism, if one were to commit the mortal sin of drunkenness and afterwards repents of the sin, such a one would need to have true sorrow for that sin together with a firm resolve never to commit it again, confess it to a priest (John 20:22-23; 1 John 1:9) in the Sacrament of Penance, and make satisfaction.


Act of Contrition

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and the pains of hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen.
 
I dunno 🤷

Not Catholic but there’s something lacking in much of Protestantism. Even a lot of church leaders seem to feel free to build their own doctrine as they see fit.
 
Christ_empowered said:
I dunno 🤷

Not Catholic but there’s something lacking in much of Protestantism. Even a lot of church leaders seem to feel free to build their own doctrine as they see fit.
Click to expand...
It seems that Protestants have a negative view of penance, but why? It would be interesting to know, what is the Protestant understanding of penance that gives them such an unfavorable impression.
 
I dunno 🤷‍♂️

I can’t speak for all Protestants ever lol 😆 but there does seem to be this emphasis on being changed NOW like immediately after coming to believe upon Jesus Christ and on the pursuit of godliness mixed with a lot of tolerance for some sins from some people…

But not all sins not all people.

The anti catholic Protestants decry anything associated with Catholicism and having to do anything to get forgiveness is a no no. So I dunno 🤷

I grew up liberal Presbyterian so Catholicism is a completely different way of approaching Jesus Christ in my little world 🌍. No real hostility just…I don’t get it lol 😆
 
Here is the easy way guys, it is when you lay hour life down for others, you show you believe in Christ who layed HIs life down for us and when you care for the needs of others, you do not hurt them instead, and baptism is a good conscience to believe Jesus has risen from that same dead, so you rise with Him from everything that is not Jesus Christ. ( rise up from deceit, selfishness, vanity.)


1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
 
wondering said:
Jesus did say to get baptized.

Also, in John 3:5 Jesus states that one must be born of water and the spirit.
Some scholars believe this means natural birth (the water I mean)
and some believe it means baptism.

I tend to believe that we really should be baptized.
Click to expand...
Verified by verse 22
Jn 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Thanks
 
for_his_glory said:
None of those verses have anything to do with repenting of your sins before the Lord.

Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

There are two different baptisms. One being the baptism of John for repentance (outward appearance) preparing the way of the Lord and the other the Baptism of Christ for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
You asked what is penance!
 
donadams said:
Verified by verse 22
Jn 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Thanks
Click to expand...
The natural birth representing the water could also be verified when Nicodemus asked Jesus how he could possibly enter back into his mother's womb.
 
donadams said:
You asked what is penance!
Click to expand...
But you never explained what penance is as you only gave verses that have nothing to do with penance.

Here is the definition:
voluntary self-punishment inflicted as an outward expression of repentance for having done wrong.

Now, where is this found in the Bible?
 
John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for repentance or the remission of sin, but had to associate with humanity in order to fulfill prophecy.
 
wondering said:
Maria1217 posted Acts 2:38 as Peter saying the disciples had to do penance.
I've never seen any bible version state this.
Thought you were answering to another member asking her about this.
Let's see what Maria says.
Click to expand...
I know you asked Maria, but want to add this.

KJV Isa 58:5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

NAB (Catholic Bible) Isaiah 58:5 Is such the fast that I have chosen, a day for a man to afflict his soul, -- that he should bow down his head as a bulrush, and spread sackcloth and ashes [under him]?

Notice the wording between the two as this is where Catholics believe they need to do penance.

KJV, Is it such a fast that I have chosen? (Notice the question mark). The NAB, Is such the fast that I have chosen (reads that this is the fast in order to afflict his soul as doing penance)

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
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