Believers stay righteous through their obedience

[billybalke]

no difference you have to be in HIM connected to the true vine to be in him are placed into him Christ in us the hope of glory

Run that by an English teacher.

 

[WIP]

I wish WIP would reply to this since he's on this thread.

It's my understanding that we can discuss or debate this topic, but in a civil and friendly manner.

It's not t he disagreeing that creates a problem but HOW we disagree.

At least this is my understanding...If you two PM each other, the rest of us will miss everything you say.

This is exactly correct. Some take the meaning of "debate" as to prove others wrong. That's not what we're about. We are about sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ, building up each other and the Church, and doing so with respect, kindness, gentleness, and love. It's when we dig our heals in and try to force others to see things the way we do that we create an atmosphere that is less than edifying.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is exactly correct. Some take the meaning of "debate" as to prove others wrong. That's not what we're about. We are about sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ, building up each other and the Church, and doing so with respect, kindness, gentleness, and love. It's when we dig our heals in and try to force others to see things the way we do that we create an atmosphere that is less than edifying.

I've seen many debates that are civil...just check out youtube.
OR we could use the word "discuss" if that's helpful.
Anyway, it's my understanding that we don't all have to agree on everything...but just should be nice to each other; which seems like the Christianly thing to do anyway.

 

[WIP]

Usually when "perfect" is used it means "mature",

Can you provide explanation why you say this? If it means mature, why do a majority, if not all, the translated Scriptures not use the word mature?

Is God not perfect? I think the word perfect makes perfect sense. No pun intended. We cannot enter heaven on our own because we lack that perfection. This is precisely why I believe we need a Savior.

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you provide explanation why you say this? If it means mature, why do a majority, if not all, the translated Scriptures not use the word mature?

Is God not perfect? I think the word perfect makes perfect sense. No pun intended. We cannot enter heaven on our own because we lack that perfection. This is precisely why I believe we need a Savior.

Could perfection be a goal?
(but what would be the sense of having a goal that Jesus knew perfectly well we could not achieve?)

 

[WIP]

Could perfection be a goal?
(but what would be the sense of having a goal that Jesus knew perfectly well we could not achieve?)

For the same reason that I see as a danger in our Church today. We have a tendency to just shoot for the goal and when we feel we've achieved it, we stop pushing further. I see it in our church when our children are confirmed and they stop coming to Sunday School and even stop attending services. They see confirmation as some kind of graduation or completion of a task when in reality it is only a beginning. I believe many are misled into believing that just because they mouthed a few words that someone else recited for them to say, they are saved and in their mind they are thinking something like, "Whew! Got that done." From that day forward they are free to live whatever lifestyle they want and that includes living in opposition to God.

Just my

 

[GodsGrace]

For the same reason that I see as a danger in our Church today. We have a tendency to just shoot for the goal and when we feel we've achieved it, we stop pushing further. I see it in our church when our children are confirmed and they stop coming to Sunday School and even stop attending services. They see confirmation as some kind of graduation or completion of a task when in reality it is only a beginning. I believe many are misled into believing that just because they mouthed a few words that someone else recited for them to say, they are saved and in their mind they are thinking something like, "Whew! Got that done." From that day forward they are free to live whatever lifestyle they want and that includes living in opposition to God.

Just my

OK. So we agree that Jesus meant it as a goal; which is how I've always understood it. We won't ever be perfect in this life, but we have to give it our best shot, and get better and better if possible.

I agree with you 100% as to what you've stated. I actually taught kids catechism and know for sure that you've expressed perfectly how they feel. They don't really enjoy learning their faith too much anyway --- it used to be different years ago. So when confirmation time comes, be it in whatever church, they feel that they've achieved their goal and it's all over and now they could go on with their lives.

In one church, they tried letting the kids make their confirmation FIRST, at the beginning of the year, and then continuing with the instruction, but this did not work. In fact many stopped coming to instruction all together.

We're just living in a very secular world...this has happened before, then it changes.

 

[Senior]

Can you provide explanation why you say this? If it means mature, why do a majority, if not all, the translated Scriptures not use the word mature?
Is God not perfect? I think the word perfect makes perfect sense. No pun intended. We cannot enter heaven on our own because we lack that perfection. This is precisely why I believe we need a Savior.

 

[Senior]

I believe most lexicons, etc. say the Greek word means "mature"
like in the epistles.
But, I don't know what Greek word is used in Matthew 5,
where "mature" makes no sense at all.

At any rate, the admonition for us to "perfect" is more demanding
than most of the NT verses that I present to people, IMO.

 

[Senior]

What scripture tells us how we get INTO Christ?

In my experience on the Internet, the church believes they are "in Christ"
just because they have received the Holy Spirit.
IMO, this thinking is false!

Being "in Christ" is akin to "abiding" in Jesus.
Doesn't John 15 indicate that those who are not "abiding" in Christ
will be thrown into the lake of fire?

 

[for_his_glory]

What scripture tells us how we get INTO Christ?

John 15: 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Colossians 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

If you read the rest of Colossians chapter 3 this is how we remain in Christ and He in us.

 

[billybalke]

In my experience on the Internet, the church believes they are "in Christ"
just because they have received the Holy Spirit.
IMO, this thinking is false!

Being "in Christ" is akin to "abiding" in Jesus.
Doesn't John 15 indicate that those who are not "abiding" in Christ
will be thrown into the lake of fire?

Yes being in Christ is akin to abiding in Christ. The question remains however, how do we get into Christ that we may be in Christ or abide in Christ. Thus far only Wondering has answered this in accord with he scripture.

 

[Senior]

Yes being in Christ is akin to abiding in Christ.
The question remains however, how do we get into Christ
that we may be in Christ or abide in Christ.

The BAC must continue to be a faithful follower of Jesus, being obedient to His commands,
and not into habitual unrepentant sin, but repenting of his/her sins.
Is this all that is required to remain "in Christ" and "abiding" in Jesus?

 

[for_his_glory]

We know that we are made righteous by that of God's righteousness as our righteousness is a filthy rag to God, Isaiah 64:6. We are only perfect when we are walking after the Spirit. In the flesh there is no perfection.

Romans 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[billybalke]

The BAC must continue to be a faithful follower of Jesus, being obedient to His commands,
and not into habitual unrepentant sin, but repenting of his/her sins.
Is this all that is required to remain "in Christ" and "abiding" in Jesus?

My question was how do we get into Christ.

 

[Senior]

My question was how do we get into Christ.

Yes, sorry!
The same way we receive the Holy Spirit.
But, everything we receive at this initial point in time may be lost.
You've heard it all before, read the NT verses, etc.

 

[billybalke]

Yes, sorry!
The same way we receive the Holy Spirit.
But, everything we receive at this initial point in time may be lost.
You've heard it all before, read the NT verses, etc.

Thank you Senior. I agree. We get into Christ "the same way we receive the Holy Spirit." "REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT'', ACTS 2:38

 

[JLB]

Paul was sent to preach to the Gentiles.
But JESUS said to teach all nations and baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

We can't understand fully why Jesus said to be baptized...but we should do as He instructed.

By this I do not believe that if a born again believer dies without being baptized he will not be saved. Only Jesus saves.

IMO, water baptism is not necessary just because Paul said he goes to people
NOT to baptize, but to preach the gospel (paraphrasing).

I think we can all agree that the Baptism that does save is the one where the Spirit baptizes us into Christ when we are born again.


For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13


Personally I encourage people to understand and apply all three baptisms to their life.

The Spirit baptizes us into Christ.
Man baptizes us in water
Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.


Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
1 Corinthians 10:1-2



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

From my own personal experience...

The New Covenant is all about a person's attitude and heart (where logic and emotions cause actions).

Changing attitudes is difficult for everyone including myself. It takes time.

 

[Senior]

I think we can all agree that the Baptism that does save is the one where the Spirit baptizes us into Christ when we are born again.
Personally I encourage people to understand and apply all three baptisms to their life.
The Spirit baptizes us into Christ.
Man baptizes us in water
Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit.

May I add ...
WHEN the Spirit baptizes us into Christ --- the Holy Spirit comes INSIDE.
WHEN Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit --- the Holy Spirit comes UPON.