[_ Old Earth _] Big Bang and Evolution

[Barbarian]

so men are soo stupid that we cant even design things better then random chance and natural laws. interesting.

Yep. Humbling, in fact. God knows best as usual. For complex things, genetic algorithms (copying evolution) solve many problems that can't be "designed."

i take that as a fact. whenever man has tried to fix himself theres always that side effect yet when a scientist can create life and a human who DOESNT DIE. THEN I WILL listen. tell then shut up!

If we every get to live as long as we like, it will be by following God's way, not by trying to adjust it.

 

[jasoncran]

barb, how can men like you say that god intended death for man originally?

where is it the in the bible and per that site of jewish queries that is honest they even say evolution support from the first book is bit hard to do.

adam and eve would have to know that murder was a sin and so forth. and oddly hear some diffucult things to ponder

Five Levels
But it is the human soul that is both the most complex and the most lofty of souls. Our sages have said: "She is called by five names: Nefesh (soul), Ruach (spirit), Neshamah (breath), Chayah (life) and Yechidah (singularity)."2 The Chassidic masters explain that the soul's five "names" actually describe five levels or dimensions of the soul. Nefesh is the soul as the engine of physical life. Ruach is the emotional self and "personality." Neshamah is the intellectual self. Chayah is the supra-rational self--the seat of will, desire, commitment and faith. Yechidah connotes the essence of the soul--its unity with its source, the singular essence of G-d. For the essence of the soul of man is "literally a part of G-d above"3--a piece of G-d in us, so to speak

from here.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/3194/jewish/What-is-a-Soul.htm
all in the ot. and you must answer when that came to be as you like all catholic assume on word for soul when its not



also i ask when noah died and those men way past one hundred years what was the cause and why?

or its it those ages not literal.

 

[Asyncritus]

The difference of degree that you insist either does not exist or is irrelevant.

Dream on, LK.

Does not exist? The theory of relativity does not exist?

Irrelevant? Then what is relevant?

A taxonomist who entirely ignores the mental capacities and spiritual quality of mankind is entitled to be placed in a group of the more foolish apes.

Does any primate subscribe to any religion that you know of? Do you know of any primate that can compose a piece of music? Or give a comprehensible speech of any description?

Does mankind have, in your considered opinion of course, ANY faculties and abilities that are not present in any primate?

The observed fact that the majority of individuals cannot do those things which you claim require that the totality of those individuals be placed in their own unique Kingdom.

Don't you think this is unadulterated nonsense? I do.

And yet you are unable to define the limits for that Kingdom in respect of all other characteristics such that Homo sapiens sapiens does not remain taxonomically related to the other great apes and primates. Surely this alone tells you that your proposal is deeply flawed?

There are a large number of physical characteristics which I placed on the board which cannot be explained or accounted for on any theory of evolution by natural selection.

Pre-eminent among them is the binding of the four toes of primates by the metatarsal ligament. The 5 toes of the human are bound by that ligament.

There is no halfway house - it's either 4 or 5 bound. How do you account for that feature?

There are a large number of psychospiritual characteristics which exist, some are mentioned above, which cannot be accounted for by any evolutionary theory either.

The existence of language is impossible to account for by any evolutionary theory. You may try, but failure is guaranteed.

And let me again mention Dr Leakey's find of modern human footprints 3.7mya - far preceding any humanoids, hominins, and such like. That alone shows that these theories of human evolution are well up the ignorance gum tree.

I didn't get your explanation of the origin of those footprints.

On these grounds, and others, I contend that mankind belongs to a separate kingdom.

 

[Barbarian]

barb, how can men like you say that god intended death for man originally?

He would not have created man as a mortal being otherwise. Notice that in Genesis, man must eat from the tree of life to be immortal. In fact, God banishes him from the garden to be sure he doesn't.

where is it the in the bible and per that site of jewish queries that is honest they even say evolution support from the first book is bit hard to do.

Kinda hard to justify protons from the first book, too. Not everything that is true, is in that book.

adam and eve would have to know that murder was a sin and so forth. and oddly hear some diffucult things to ponder

Such are the consequences of becoming a moral being, capable of knowing good and evil. But without that, we could not become sons of God, either.

Five Levels
But it is the human soul that is both the most complex and the most lofty of souls. Our sages have said: "She is called by five names: Nefesh (soul), Ruach (spirit), Neshamah (breath), Chayah (life) and Yechidah (singularity)."2 The Chassidic masters explain that the soul's five "names" actually describe five levels or dimensions of the soul. Nefesh is the soul as the engine of physical life. Ruach is the emotional self and "personality." Neshamah is the intellectual self. Chayah is the supra-rational self--the seat of will, desire, commitment and faith. Yechidah connotes the essence of the soul--its unity with its source, the singular essence of G-d. For the essence of the soul of man is "literally a part of G-d above"3--a piece of G-d in us, so to speak
from here.
http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-is-a-Soul.htm

Very like the ancient Egyptian concept of the soul.

The ancient Egyptians believed that a human soul was made up of five parts: the Ren, the Ba, the Ka, the Sheut, and the Ib.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_concept_of_the_soul

all in the ot. and you must answer when that came to be as you like all catholic assume on word for soul when its not

It's a bit more involved than you've been told:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14220b.htm

also i ask when noah died and those men way past one hundred years what was the cause and why?

Hard to say. Maybe it's a different notion of time. Maybe there was something odd about the telomeres in the line of early humans tens of thousands of years ago. It's not a matter of concern for Christians.

 

[Barbarian]

There are a large number of physical characteristics which I placed on the board which cannot be explained or accounted for on any theory of evolution by natural selection.

Pre-eminent among them is the binding of the four toes of primates by the metatarsal ligament. The 5 toes of the human are bound by that ligament.

There is no halfway house - it's either 4 or 5 bound. How do you account for that feature?

A human can have more or less than five fingers. There is no halfway house. It's always a discrete number. There are many variations in the attachments of tendons and muscles in the human foot. This is also true of lumbrosacral vertebrae, ribs, and so on. If it varies within a species, it seems pretty foolish to deny that such things can't vary between related species.

There are a large number of psychospiritual characteristics which exist, some are mentioned above, which cannot be accounted for by any evolutionary theory either.

As you were told, not all of them exist in all humans. And rudments of them exist in non-humans. So again, you seem to have undercut your own argument.

The existence of language is impossible to account for by any evolutionary theory.

Wrong again.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...cCI#v=onepage&q=evolution of language&f=false

And let me again mention Dr Leakey's find of modern human footprints 3.7mya

Actually, "almost identical" to modern humans. But as you learned, Australopithecines had feet almost identical to those of modern humans, so that's hardly a surprise that almost identical feet would make almost identical footprints.

far preceding any humanoids, hominins, and such like.

In fact, hominins existed millions of years prior to those footprints. Would you like to see the evidence, again?

 

[Free]

to free, what does the idea of christ came to redeem man mean? we arent made for heaven and the ressurection doesnt speak of any bodyless existence and most jewish scholars laugh at us for taking genesis as not being as it says.

I don't understand the relevance of the first part. As to the Jewish scholars, it is possible they could be wrong, correct? And there are several different ways of understanding "Genesis" (by which I understand you to mean the creation accounts), so which understanding are they laughing at?

 

[jasoncran]

I don't understand the relevance of the first part. As to the Jewish scholars, it is possible they could be wrong, correct? And there are several different ways of understanding "Genesis" (by which I understand you to mean the creation accounts), so which understanding are they laughing at?

yes ,but given centuries of hate from our side and less from them. you do get the idea that we are more likely to be off.

given the myriad of law topics its real clear how little the modern church ever understood the law.

uh, genesis was written two thousand years after the fact. so it was passed by oral tradition to to moses. and also when one looks at the number 666 where do we get that?

its not even in the bible but the talmud.

also the names of certian prophets (jonas and jambres)that arent named in the ot but come by oral tradition

and here is the where the entire ot is translated from in hebrew means means orally transmitted.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Masoretic_text


yes can they be wrong but isnt it odd that we have a god that cant plainly speak to us?

what did he mean? is a day not a day? context tell us when. if he cant tell us openly then he is no better then allah!

but he does tell us. and its these reason i walk from the verses some to support pacifism when i can look up the arguments of then and what the law did mean and also why pre-trib fails.


so if we cant decipher genesis the easiest of them all then forget revalation!

 

[jasoncran]

He would not have created man as a mortal being otherwise. Notice that in Genesis, man must eat from the tree of life to be immortal. In fact, God banishes him from the garden to be sure he doesn't.



Kinda hard to justify protons from the first book, too. Not everything that is true, is in that book.



Such are the consequences of becoming a moral being, capable of knowing good and evil. But without that, we could not become sons of God, either.



Very like the ancient Egyptian concept of the soul.

The ancient Egyptians believed that a human soul was made up of five parts: the Ren, the Ba, the Ka, the Sheut, and the Ib.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_concept_of_the_soul



It's a bit more involved than you've been told:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14220b.htm



Hard to say. Maybe it's a different notion of time. Maybe there was something odd about the telomeres in the line of early humans tens of thousands of years ago. It's not a matter of concern for Christians.

weak to do that barb. so if i wanted to and i will then the egyptians also believed HORUS DIED and revived like our lord.

low really low for a christian to do that



and uh so if God meant adam to live forever then that negates your whole argument.

it wasnt till they sinned did death enter! thus no death for them! what of the sinless souls of those other primates? God judged them without any law? that violates what paul says in romans. for without law theres no sin!

 

[EricTheBaptist]

It says He's a lot more capable and intelligent than you suppose. Engineers are now discovering that evolutionary processes are more efficient than design for complex problems. As usual, God turned out to know best.



No, it doesn't. Take another look. But even if it did, "perfect" would mean that it was created to serve His will.



The evidence says otherwise.



Indeed.

According to the Bible, the universe and planet earth were made in the beginning. So either way were looking at it here apparently the Earth is 4-6 billion years old.

 

[jasoncran]

ah yes i know of that and all are translated soul. the psyche, the psuche, and the soma.

please barb, letss see you do accept the ot as inspired right?

so then i will force you to deny that or accept that.

verses on the soul from the tanakh

nephesh
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H5315/nephesh.htm

ruach
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/3455/Ruach.htm


neshamah
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm...RTD/isbe/ID/1688/Breath-Breathe-Breathing.htm

it aint looking good for you.

chayah

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/h2421/page/2

and lastely.

yechidah, which is PART OF THE YHWH!

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/Hey/hey.html
AND THAT SITE is a believing hebrew!

so care to rethink what i said!

if you damn that gemetria fully then the entire doctrine of ad 70 goes as well and also the very doctrine of prechristophene appearences of the names of the Lord.

im sorry i dont and wont subscribe to solo scriptura sub scienca.

its called exegesis not that.

and in the book of exodus theres a name that is called ANGEL UNTO THE LORD THAT has the number of His name.

and jesus claimed that name! its called the Good sheppard.

 

[jasoncran]

barb, genesis wasnt meant to a historical narrative of all the means and events of the account just the most important things. just as the gospel doesnt tell us the daily life all the years of the lord.

once i verify this. most christians assume christ was a babe when the wise man came , he wasnt.

http://www.orlutheran.com/html/magifaq.html

at least tween age 41 days till 2. and said manger is a stand like they usually show when it was with the animals in a hole in the wall or cave.

i dont nitpick this stuff but often is the case with hebrew thinking, they dont give exact details as that isnt the point to them.

imagine if god did give the way he did it. would men believe nope!

see the account of children of isreal in exile. they saw more of him then we do, and died! imagine if dawkins says theres no god and God walked in and said really, and kills him with fire and we all see that live.


be glad that he doesnt. yet he slew the isrealites in like manner when they rebelled in moses day.

 

[Barbarian]

According to the Bible, the universe and planet earth were made in the beginning.

Actually, God starts at the "beginning" when the Earth has been made, and is yet in a chaotic state. And indeterminate amount of time occurs before living things appear.

So either way were looking at it here apparently the Earth is 4-6 billion years old.

About 4 and a half billion years, I think. And undetermined amount of time takes place before life and then some more before man.

 

[Barbarian]

weak to do that barb. so if i wanted to and i will then the egyptians also believed HORUS DIED and revived like our lord.

No. Horus remains dead. He is so depicted. But the notion of the soul as composed of four entities is a very old one in the Middle East.

low really low for a christian to do that

The truth matters. We should pay attention to realities.

and uh so if God meant adam to live forever then that negates your whole argument.

I don't think He did. He clearly knew Adam would rebel. Indeed, it was necessary for Adam to do it, to become like God.

it wasnt till they sinned did death enter! thus no death for them!

As Genesis makes clear, that was a spiritual, not a physical death.

what of the sinless souls of those other primates? God judged them without any law? that violates what paul says in romans. for without law theres no sin!

There is no original sin for other animals. But remember, physical death is not the punishment for rebellion.

 

[Free]

Actually, God starts at the "beginning" when the Earth has been made, and is yet in a chaotic state. And indeterminate amount of time occurs before living things appear.

Yes, this is an important point.

 

[jasoncran]

No. Horus remains dead. He is so depicted. But the notion of the soul as composed of four entities is a very old one in the Middle East.



The truth matters. We should pay attention to realities.



I don't think He did. He clearly knew Adam would rebel. Indeed, it was necessary for Adam to do it, to become like God.



As Genesis makes clear, that was a spiritual, not a physical death.



There is no original sin for other animals. But remember, physical death is not the punishment for rebellion.

can you tell me where all those apes where that didnt sin?

and did adam and eve mate with them?

ok you asked

which this should sound familiar to you since you and darwin espouse


the egyptians believed that man came from lower beings

and what did christ do? he died and was raised in BODY.

SO LET ME ASK you this if we are raised from the dead we get bodies.

christ restores not make a new. he reclaimed what we lost

and no you dont win on that account

if you want to i can post the entire genesis account with the egyptian account as well and then declare that we really dont have any account do we.

low again barb. the account is real close to the egyptians

and wrong again barb heaven isnt meant for man. we dont stay there long

and heres another problem

adam lived how long after his sin? 969 yrs.

and if i take genesis one as you do

in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth and .. and the night and day were the first day

was that a long night and long day per them eons?

so i guess god cant tell us openly what he did do.

low real low and lets see

hmm your church well agrees with me.

new bodies that dont have death. so why would god make a body to die then when he comes to change the whole earth and restore it

do this?

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/resurrection-of-the-body

the idea of redemption also includes the body per that article. sinless, no death


hmm..

 

[jasoncran]

i think i will, barb you also claim that i can say the same with the entire book of genesis.

egyptians were real close.

do you see the problem but let see this

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05749a.htm

so the protohumans didnt have one?

they didnt have a language?

anything close.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

Actually, God starts at the "beginning" when the Earth has been made, and is yet in a chaotic state. And indeterminate amount of time occurs before living things appear.



About 4 and a half billion years, I think. And undetermined amount of time takes place before life and then some more before man.

Actually,


Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

There is NOTHING before the first verse of the Bible, the Earth wasn't even in form. Now what about this "old Earth" junk?

 

[Barbarian]

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

So the "beginning" only goes back as far as the Earth. What happened before that, He doesn't say.

There is NOTHING before the first verse of the Bible, the Earth wasn't even in form. Now what about this "old Earth" junk?

About 4 1/2 billion years old, according to the evidence. God doesn't say exactly how old it is.

 

[Barbarian]

so the protohumans didnt have one?

Soul? Some didn't. At some point, God gave a man and a woman an immortal soul, and they were different. Our bodies occur by natural processes, but our souls are given directly by God.

they didnt have a language?

Since even monkeys have rudimentary language, it seems likely that any protohuman did.

 

[Free]

Actually,


Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

There is NOTHING before the first verse of the Bible, the Earth wasn't even in form. Now what about this "old Earth" junk?

Don't be so hasty:

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:6 Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."
Gen 1:7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:9 Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"; and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so.
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.
Gen 1:14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
Gen 1:15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.
Gen 1:16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,
Gen 1:18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens."
Gen 1:21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
Gen 1:23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Gen 1:29 And God said, "See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.
Gen 1:30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food"; and it was so.
Gen 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (NKJV)

Do you see the pattern? Every day begins with "Then God said" and ends with "So the evening and the morning were the [x] day." Not only that, note what happens specifically in verses 3-5:

Gen 1:3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night.So the evening and the morning were the first day.

This is where God creates the light and divides it from the darkness so that there can even be a first day.

It seems quite likely that the heavens and the earth were created prior to the first day.