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birth control

Keep in mind that there are OTHER reasons as to why women are on birth control. I have to stay on it because of ovarian cysts. They can get extremely large and become fatal for some (not common, but it HAS happened). Fatal or not, those things are painful.

And think about all the children that need adopted.
 
I am aware that there are other reasons women take the Pill... however, the Pill itself has little actual medical benefits that cannot be achieved through other drugs/diets/herbs, etc.

Ovarian cysts can be helped by surgery (if they're severe, otherwise the scar tissue can become an issue), However many polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) patients respond well to modified low-carb diets. Others do well on vegan diets. There are also drug treatments for PCOS such as Metformin/Glucophage. And taking a good multi-vitamin and herbal supplements treats a lot of cycle irregularities and hormonal imbalances. Also, eliminating light in the sleeping environment also helps to balance out hormones and regulate the cycle. (most info from "Fertility, Cycles and Nutrition" by Marilyn Shannon... a book intended to help couples conceive).
 
CatholicXian said:
I am aware that there are other reasons women take the Pill... however, the Pill itself has little actual medical benefits that cannot be achieved through other drugs/diets/herbs, etc.

Ovarian cysts can be helped by surgery (if they're severe, otherwise the scar tissue can become an issue), However many polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) patients respond well to modified low-carb diets. Others do well on vegan diets. There are also drug treatments for PCOS such as Metformin/Glucophage. And taking a good multi-vitamin and herbal supplements treats a lot of cycle irregularities and hormonal imbalances. Also, eliminating light in the sleeping environment also helps to balance out hormones and regulate the cycle. (most info from "Fertility, Cycles and Nutrition" by Marilyn Shannon... a book intended to help couples conceive).

I would MUCH RATHER take the pill for my cysts than surgery. My doctor said surgery would be the last option for me and I agreed with her 100%. You probably would think terribly of me anyways, because my husband has a vasectomy. I am happy with our 2 children. If we ever want more, we will adopt one of the many that need a home. I would much rather see more people using birth control than having abortions. Abortion is MURDER. Birth control is PREVENTION.
 
No, Nikki, I wouldn't, and don't think terribly of you or your husband. I might disagree with either of you, but I disagree with a lot of my friends--and that doesn't make us dislike each other.

As long as people believe in and accept Christ, I figure they've got a huge head start on life. It can sometimes get more frustrating discussing things with fellow Christians, but I worry more for those that do not yet know Christ.


But anyway, as I said before, cysts can often be helped by a change of diet and/or other drug treatments. I do agree that abortion is far worse--however, many pills related to artificial birth control are abortificient. I would also go so far as to suggest that artificial birth control is related to abortion. Often times you will see abortion listed as an option... why? Because many view abortion to have the same intent--to avoid pregnancy. Pregnancy (or the possibility of it) is what sets the marital act apart from all other acts of intimacy... removing that, or attempting to, radically alters the meaning of the act and takes away a certain uniqueness to it. To remove parenthood (/the possibility of it) from sexual intercourse is to in effect say that children are "bad" (/burdens). Abortion holds this same view about children.
 
CatholicXian said:
But anyway, as I said before, cysts can often be helped by a change of diet and/or other drug treatments. I do agree that abortion is far worse--however, many pills related to artificial birth control are abortificient. I would also go so far as to suggest that artificial birth control is related to abortion. Often times you will see abortion listed as an option... why? Because many view abortion to have the same intent--to avoid pregnancy. Pregnancy (or the possibility of it) is what sets the marital act apart from all other acts of intimacy... removing that, or attempting to, radically alters the meaning of the act and takes away a certain uniqueness to it. To remove parenthood (/the possibility of it) from sexual intercourse is to in effect say that children are "bad" (/burdens). Abortion holds this same view about children.

I would NEVER think of children being "bad". My children are a true gift from God. Even on the days when they have about driven me to killing myself, I love them and wouldn't trade them for the world. :lol:

When my husband and I started talking about him getting a vasectomy, I struggled with "How does God feel about it"? But, I feel that God is just fine with it. I don't think he thinks any less of us. Sometimes I get the baby itch, but as soon as I have a baby or even a toddler for a short amount of time, I realize that I'm perfectly content with my 2! I know that even IF we were to have more, I would be perfectly happy, but truthfully, I didn't want to find out.

I know that a lot of pills are the same as abortion. They can abort the fetus so early that you didn't even know you were pregnant. Those I do NOT agree with. I only agree with the ones that prevent the sperm from implanting itself into the egg in the first place.
 
Oh, I did not mean to imply that you personally viewed children as such! Most Christian women see their children as the blessings that they are.

I still do not see the altercation of the conjugal act between a husband and wife as something becoming a Christian. Sex has a very specific function. Procreation. Yes, sex is unifying and pleasureable for the spouses--but it is FIRST procreative. As I said above, the possibility for man and woman to become father and mother together (and, in a very real way, "co-creators" with God) sets sex apart from all other acts of intimacy and love between a husband and wife. To remove the procreative aspect from it, takes away its uniqueness... it becomes like an intimate hug... one of many gestures a husband and wife can experience to grow close to one another, with nothing specifically unique to it. This is my main objection to artificial birth control.

However, I think I also ought to make clear that I am not against controlling birth. Responsible parenthood, is key to procreation (which is not merely the begetting of children.. but also raising/loving them). Spouses ought to prayerfully consider the size of their family. There are many natural ways of controlling birth (spacing births), without having to resort to artificial means that alter the sexual act by removing fertility--chemically or physically.

Lastly, this is somewhat always a difficult topic to discuss without offending others... so I want to make it clear that it is not my intention to pass judgement on others-- especially when things get somewhat personal.
 
CatholicXian said:
Oh, I did not mean to imply that you personally viewed children as such! Most Christian women see their children as the blessings that they are.

I still do not see the altercation of the conjugal act between a husband and wife as something becoming a Christian. Sex has a very specific function. Procreation. Yes, sex is unifying and pleasureable for the spouses--but it is FIRST procreative. As I said above, the possibility for man and woman to become father and mother together (and, in a very real way, "co-creators" with God) sets sex apart from all other acts of intimacy and love between a husband and wife. To remove the procreative aspect from it, takes away its uniqueness... it becomes like an intimate hug... one of many gestures a husband and wife can experience to grow close to one another, with nothing specifically unique to it. This is my main objection to artificial birth control.

However, I think I also ought to make clear that I am not against controlling birth. Responsible parenthood, is key to procreation (which is not merely the begetting of children.. but also raising/loving them). Spouses ought to prayerfully consider the size of their family. There are many natural ways of controlling birth (spacing births), without having to resort to artificial means that alter the sexual act by removing fertility--chemically or physically.
Your stance isillogical. Timing methods twart the procreative aspect of sex just as effectively (or so you argue). If sex needs to be set apart by having procreative potential, then conciously altering your sexual patterns in order to space births destroys the procreative potential as surely as chemicals or condoms do.
 
Timing does not alter the act... husband and wife are still doing that by which man and woman become father and mother together-- the fact that the woman happens to be infertile is a natural effect/rhythm of the body and not induced chemically or physically by the man or woman (or both).

It's not illogical. Natural infertility is natural. Chemically/Physically altering fertility to be infertile is not natural.
 
CatholicXian said:
Timing does not alter the act
Nor do condoms.
... husband and wife are still doing that by which man and woman become father and mother together--
As they are if a condom is on.
the fact that the woman happens to be infertile is a natural effect/rhythm of the body and not induced chemically or physically by the man or woman (or both).
Who cares? It is just as natural for a man to use his mind to design a condom as it is for a man to use his mind to time his sexual acts. I don't see how one could be considered wrong while the other isn't.

Natural infertility is natural. Chemically/Physically altering fertility to be infertile is not natural.
First, man is part of nature, so I question the validity of this distinction. Second, even if the distinction is valid, there is nothing inherently immoral with non-natural activities. Since the purpose of both contraceptions and NFP are identical, and there is nothing inherently immoral with using manmade objects, I cannot grasp how you make the leap to condemning contraceptions.
 
CatholicXian said:
Oh, I did not mean to imply that you personally viewed children as such! Most Christian women see their children as the blessings that they are.

I didn't take it that way at all. I was just saying... :lol:

And YES, this is contraversial....like most topics on here... :lol:

I just try not to let myself get offended or mad. There are many more important things to worry about, IMO.
 
CatholicXian said:
Oh, I did not mean to imply that you personally viewed children as such! Most Christian women see their children as the blessings that they are.

I didn't take it that way at all. I was just saying... :lol:

And YES, this is contraversial....like most topics on here... :lol:

I just try not to let myself get offended or mad. There are many more important things to worry about, IMO.
 
cubedbee said:
CatholicXian said:
Timing does not alter the act
Nor do condoms.
Condoms do indeed alter the act... I'm not sure how graphic I am permitted to be, so I will just suffice to say that with a condom on, something doesn't take place that would happen without the condom.

cubedbee said:
... husband and wife are still doing that by which man and woman become father and mother together--
As they are if a condom is on.
No they aren't. The condom removes the chance of fertility (or attempts to). Timing is not an attempt to remove fertility... it is cooperating with the natural effect and cycle of the woman's body.

cubedbee said:
the fact that the woman happens to be infertile is a natural effect/rhythm of the body and not induced chemically or physically by the man or woman (or both).
Who cares? It is just as natural for a man to use his mind to design a condom as it is for a man to use his mind to time his sexual acts. I don't see how one could be considered wrong while the other isn't.
Because the condom does not allow the entire act to take place. Timing allows the entire act to take place... the fact that there won't be an egg around to fertilize isn't the fault of the man or woman-- they aren't controlling that-- it's controlled by the woman's natural cycle.

cubedbee said:
Natural infertility is natural. Chemically/Physically altering fertility to be infertile is not natural.
First, man is part of nature, so I question the validity of this distinction. Second, even if the distinction is valid, there is nothing inherently immoral with non-natural activities. Since the purpose of both contraceptions and NFP are identical, and there is nothing inherently immoral with using manmade objects, I cannot grasp how you make the leap to condemning contraceptions.
I'm not sure what you mean/what you are objecting to in the first part? Secondly, I would disagree that non-natural contraceptives are not inherently immoral. Non-natural is an attempt to manipulate (or sometimes mutilate) the sexual organs/faculties. They change/alter the act itself. Timing-- or charting a woman's fertility cycles-- and engaging in intercourse when the woman is not fertile changes nothing-- it alters nothing. Yes, they do have the same purpose (in a sense)-- to avoid conception at that time... but natural methods do not manipulate/mutilate or alter the sexual act. That's the difference.
 
If you are having sex it is only right you use birth contol to prevent an unwanted child coming into the world. As unfortunately most teenagers hop into bed with each other as soon as the hormones kick in condoms who be freely available in schools.
 
I'm against the Pill because it is an abortifacient. This means that an egg can still be fertilized but is passed through the body by means of the pill.

If you are in the camp that believes life begins at conception as I am then you best research the pill a bit more closely if you are using it.
 
The Dispensation of Optional Obedience

The Dispensation of Optional Obedience

I once heard a sermon in which the minister exhorted the congregation to be diligent in their witness because “as goes the church, so goes the worldâ€Â. I wish it was true, but the opposite is most often the case.


We believers have been in a race with the world for centuries. We’re just as serious about staying on course and pressing on for the “prize†as the most degraded runner in this competition. But there is a catch. We are not running to win. We are striving for the silver medal. Our sights are set for second place. As we progress along this long track we are sure to stay twenty or thirty yards behind our opponent, “The Worldâ€Â. As “The World†passes each milestone and obstacle he is cheered or booed by those who have gathered to witness this event. Whether the witnesses of his great achievement are for or against him they all can be heard commenting with amazement on the fact that he has come so far and wonder just how far he will have the nerve to go. Since most of the audience has gathered to cheer on the winner, they often overlook us as we pass the same post a short time later. But we’re not bothered because we aren’t running for the attention, just the satisfaction we gain from running this same course. After all, we can still enjoy all of the same sights and sounds as our opponent, “The Worldâ€Â. Those who do notice us can often hear us speaking breathlessly against our foe. We mock and condemn him for running this race but then become silent as we must run harder just to keep up. We’ll deny that we are competing but we wear the attire and the number of a runner.

How often have our attitudes and way of life been indistinguishable from those of the world. Our convictions are often similar to those of the wicked just ten to twenty years ago. Surely we stand as a light and salt, after all we aren’t nearly as carnally minded as those around us… right?

Some of us have dropped out of the race and have been labeled as “those who have turned aside†or “those who have not stayed faithful to finish the course. We of course see things differently. We’ve come to realize that the prize for completing this race is death. There is no gold, silver or bronze, but one prize for all.

Father Yahweh has a standard that doesn’t change with each passing generation.

Integration and accommodation may work for mainline denominations and Latin American Catholicism but it is foreign and antithetical to true Biblical Faith.

I’m as guilty as the next person who spent years living as a “Good Christian†without seriously challenging the practices I was taught to accept. There’s a real reformation taking place now. It’s picking up where the last reformation left off. Many of Yahweh’s people are reexamining what they have been taught. That which is consistent with the complete counsel of Scripture is being grasped while that which is merely the doctrine of men (and often opposed to scripture) is being discarded.

One issue in which we have clearly followed the lead of the world is concerning the matter of child prevention. It would seem that we live in a new and glorious era, the
“Dispensation of Optional Obedienceâ€Â. Clear commands once heeded without question are now discarded as purely optional. Could it be that our views and convictions are much more dictated by this wicked society than they are by the one who is the Way, the Truth and the Life? The world has taken the lead and we strive to keep up.

I’m sure we would all say that abortion is murder. That is one path the world has taken that we are sure to avoid, or are we? Killing for one’s convenience is always immoral regardless of the methodology. Surely poisoning is just as deadly as dismemberment. The end result is always the same. In recent years it has become public knowledge that most forms of child prevention (birth control) have the potential of actually killing a newly created baby. The Pill, Norplant, Depo-Provera and the IUD are all devices of death that take millions of lives each year. Despite these facts, which are easily obtained, scores of “Bible believing†people volunteer daily to be implanted, stuck or gagged by an assortment of “Child Prevention†products.

There is a problem here.

Let us just assume that none of the thousands of people that claim to be led by the “Spirit†have taken the time to read about the drugs and devices they consume. One could argue that ignorance, not rebellion, is to blame. Would this exempt us from the enormous weight of bloodguilt that we have heaped upon ourselves? I have observed during my years in Pro-Life ministry that Apathy and Convenience play a much greater part in the death of pew babies than simple ignorance of the facts.

I’m 100% Pro-Life, it’s just those darn kids I can’t stand!

There is a far greater evil at work in our hearts than a lack of knowledge. Children have become a burden rather than a blessing to our social, familial and ministerial well being. An anti-child mentality has gripped the body even as it has the world. As we’ve sought after the world’s blessings we’ve only found Yahweh’s curses. The only eternal gift we can bestow upon our Father has become a burden and a curse in our own eyes. The blessing is perceived as a burden. When we deny the Father the very fruit of marriage, we embrace the curse. Debt and infertility were declared to be curses upon Israel when they turned from obedience to Torah (Deut.28). Today the body sees debt as a way of life and stands in line to become enslaved. Those who by Yahweh’s grace have been blessed with a number of children are often looked upon with contempt by those in their own fellowship. “Thus saith Yahweh†has been replaced with “hath God said†in our pulpits and in our homes. Simple obedience to simple commands has become simply optional.


Let us consider that if the command to be fruitful and multiply has been nullified isn’t it likely that the other commands are also suspect? After all, only time and worldly influence has effected our consideration of this mandate. The Scriptures are clear on this point. Read Gen. 1:28, 9:1, 49:25; Ex 23:26; Deut. 7:13-14, 28:4, 28:11; Ps. 127:3-5; Ps. 128:3-4.

As we seek out truth in the Scriptures let us renew our view of children. In His book they are seen as gifts, blessings and rewards from Yahweh. We are to be fruitful! We should gladly receive and seek after His blessings. Some say that they refrain from receiving more children because they can’t afford another. This is a true insult to the Father. Do we believe that Yahweh cares for and will provide for His own? Do those “cattle on a thousand hills†only come into play when we’re seeking material gain? Our loving Father will meet every need of His people. Yahshua said so and I believe he said it because it was true not because he ran out of neat things to say (Matt. 6:25-33). We can always think of a thousand and one ‘reasons†why we shouldn’t simply obey in the area of childbearing. Yahweh honors the faith of those who don’t reason away obedience. It has been said that the same attitude toward children that leads people into the abortion clinic is found in the heart of the Christian who does everything possible to prevent them from being conceived in the first place. Pregnancy has become little more than an unfortunate mistake even in the bed of the Elect. We’ve lost sight of the heart and mind of Yahweh, as we become so much like His enemy.

As we live our lives in this preset “Dispensation of Optional Obedience†let us never be found in a foot race with the world. The true prize can only be obtained as we press on against the flow of the world and sadly sometimes even the flow and stance of the “Churchâ€Â. It took a reformation of the mind on my part to see children as the Father sees them, but now that I do, I can’t get enough! Bless me Yahweh!

Dennis E. Green
http://www.lifeandlibertyministries.com
 
Great post, lifeandliberty! :)


(aside from the minor swat at Catholicism.. but I'm not offended).
 
Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 
I'm one of those lucky ladies that have problems conceiving. I've been with my husband 7 years and we have one daughter. We rarely use birth control.

Having said that however; I can say that each child given is a blessing straight from God. Not everyone is ready to receive that blessing however. How many of us deny blessings simply because we are not ready?

If the world was perfect we would be in heaven. :wink:

I thank the Lord that He takes care of every woman either infertile; too fertile; not ready or too ready. Conception was by God's hand and Jesus was the perfect intercession when we cannot always see, understand or accept how perfect His hand is.
 
Merry Menagerie said:
Titus 3:5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHEOUSNESS which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Have you seen the thread in the "Theology" forum?

...I'm confused though as to what you mean by throwing out this verse with no explanation of how it relates?
 
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