Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Butch5]

16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

The Breath Himself bears witness with our breath that we are children of God ?


This would only confuse people.

God is not the Author of confusion, Butch. Let's just teach what the Bible says.

Why is there such a great concern with you to eliminate the truth that man has his own spirit?

Please share with me this concern of yours.


JLB

I've addressed this in post you quoted. You said, "Let's just teach what the Bible says." So, maybe you could address one of the many passages I've presented.

 

[JLB]

I've addressed this in post you quoted. You said, "Let's just teach what the Bible says." So, maybe you could address one of the many passages I've presented.

I've addressed them.

Let's you and I start with Genesis 2:7.

When I have shown you three different scriptures that teach that each of us has our own spirit, all you can say is what about Genesis 2:7.


I have addressed Genesis 2:7 several times with no response from you.

Each of us has a spirit soul and body.
1 Thessalonians 5:23


JLB

 

[chessman]

From what I have read so far in this thread and others about Conditional Immortality says that man only becomes immortal when they become a believer and receive God's spirit in them but also I read several post that said all men receive God's spirit when we are created or born (the breath of life). This seems to be a contradiction or I am reading it wrong?

When is man changed into immortal beings? Good question. You'll hear different answers, depending on who you ask.


Paul says it is at our resurrection, at the last trumpet.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.​

How? Paul records this question and answer too:

1 Corinthians 15:35, 38, 42, 45 (LEB)

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? ...​

Answer=

God gives to it a body just as he wishes, and to each one of the seeds its own body. ...​

Notice, Paul says God does this as He wishes. And the “each one” includes Adam. Paul goes on to say even the first Adam was not immortal!

Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption [i.e. Buried to decay], it is raised in incorruptibility. [i.e. immortal as he says above]​

Thus also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.​

If you read all of 1 Cor 15, with an open mind, you’ll get what Paul is saying.


Christ is the only one to give immortality to men (including Adam, since He is God he's capable of that) and Christ will give Adam/Eve immortality at the trumpet sound (because Adam was a man needing a savior and Tree of Life just like the rest of us who are "in Him".


The idea that Adam has immortality already (or had it and lost it is Platonic thought and the lingering influence of that philosophy that influenced the church. The idea that man had immortal souls didn’t even appear in the teaching of the church fathers until around Tertullian’s time and culture. I have not found any early Apostolic Father that teaches that man is immortal (soul or otherwise) and it's certainly not in the bible. Maybe you've noticed how people point to Scriptures that are not even on the topic of man's spirit to teach about man's immortal spirit. Or they simply assume men's spirits are immortal because angels don't die.

Irenaeus plainly says that man is mortal (soul and all) and even says that Adam was mortal as well. He says this is why Paul claim's Christ is the 'second Adam'. I tend to think he was right.


He summarizes a long and complex argument with: “how could a man have learned that he is himself an infirm being, and mortal by nature, but that God is immortal and powerful, unless he had learned by experience what is in both?”


On the otherhand,Tertullian will answer your question by this quote from his writings:

For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance, is held by many; the knowledge of our God is possessed by all. I may use, therefore, the opinion of a Plato, when he declares, "Every soul is immortal."


Tertullian says that it’s just “natural” to think the soul is immortal. Really? I think not.

He says this belief is “held by many”. Yes I think he’s probably right about that but that’s not really a very good logical argument. Given what Paul says or Jesus (Matt 10:28) says, I don’t believe him.

He quotes Plato’s writings for his ‘scripture’.


I know that sounds far-fetched for a church father such as Tertullian to quote Plato for his evidence and sound like I’m making it up (as some have accused me of in the past). But I’m not. Go check out Tertullian’s writings and judge for yourself.


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian16.html

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html


Irenaeus’ argument using Paul’s 1 Cor 15 message is found in Chapter 3 but there’s also a good section in chapter VII: Inasmuch as Christ Did Rise in Our Flesh, It Follows that We Shall Be Also Raised in the Same; Since the Resurrection Promised to Us Should Not Be Referred to Spirits Naturally Immortal, But to Bodies in Themselves Mortal.


I think Irenaeus means angels don’t die and I agree with him since they don’t have bodies to begin with. But he’s also saying that our resurrection (where we are made immortal) has nothing to do with spirits (angels) being naturally immortal.


Also, Chapter VI is a good one for this three part man (body/soul/spirit) discussion if you care what someone like him thinks about it. I tend to agree with Irenaeus’ points there. But it’s a deep discussion. I try not to pick just one verse out of the bible to prove man has either two or three parts since you could also pick a verse that says man has a ‘heart’ and add a fourth part, etc. It’s one of those things that are not so clear in the bible as people tend to think it is. They all have their favorite verses,


But I certainly agree that man has an immaterial part that goes to be with the Lord at the body’s death and a material part that returns to dust. I think the Bible as a whole uses ‘spirit’ in several different ways and is also translated from many different Hebrew and Greek words so it is difficult to discern.

 

[JLB]

When is man changed into immortal beings? Good question. You'll hear different answers, depending on who you ask.


Paul says it is at our resurrection, at the last trumpet.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.​

How? Paul records this question and answer too:

1 Corinthians 15:35, 38, 42, 45 (LEB)

But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? ...​

Answer=

God gives to it a body just as he wishes, and to each one of the seeds its own body. ...​

Notice, Paul says God does this as He wishes. And the “each one” includes Adam. Paul goes on to say even the first Adam was not immortal!

Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption [i.e. Buried to decay], it is raised in incorruptibility. [i.e. immortal as he says above]​

Thus also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.​

If you read all of 1 Cor 15, with an open mind, you’ll get what Paul is saying.


Christ is the only one to give immortality to men (including Adam, since He is God he's capable of that) and Christ will give Adam/Eve immortality at the trumpet sound (because Adam was a man needing a savior and Tree of Life just like the rest of us who are "in Him".


The idea that Adam has immortality already (or had it and lost it is Platonic thought and the lingering influence of that philosophy that influenced the church. The idea that man had immortal souls didn’t even appear in the teaching of the church fathers until around Tertullian’s time and culture. I have not found any early Apostolic Father that teaches that man is immortal (soul or otherwise) and it's certainly not in the bible. Maybe you've noticed how people point to Scriptures that are not even on the topic of man's spirit to teach about man's immortal spirit. Or they simply assume men's spirits are immortal because angels don't die.

Irenaeus plainly says that man is mortal (soul and all) and even says that Adam was mortal as well. He says this is why Paul claim's Christ is the 'second Adam'. I tend to think he was right.


He summarizes a long and complex argument with: “how could a man have learned that he is himself an infirm being, and mortal by nature, but that God is immortal and powerful, unless he had learned by experience what is in both?”


On the otherhand,Tertullian will answer your question by this quote from his writings:

For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance, is held by many; the knowledge of our God is possessed by all. I may use, therefore, the opinion of a Plato, when he declares, "Every soul is immortal."


Tertullian says that it’s just “natural” to think the soul is immortal. Really? I think not.

He says this belief is “held by many”. Yes I think he’s probably right about that but that’s not really a very good logical argument. Given what Paul says or Jesus (Matt 10:28) says, I don’t believe him.

He quotes Plato’s writings for his ‘scripture’.


I know that sounds far-fetched for a church father such as Tertullian to quote Plato for his evidence and sound like I’m making it up (as some have accused me of in the past). But I’m not. Go check out Tertullian’s writings and judge for yourself.


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian16.html

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html


Irenaeus’ argument using Paul’s 1 Cor 15 message is found in Chapter 3 but there’s also a good section in chapter VII: Inasmuch as Christ Did Rise in Our Flesh, It Follows that We Shall Be Also Raised in the Same; Since the Resurrection Promised to Us Should Not Be Referred to Spirits Naturally Immortal, But to Bodies in Themselves Mortal.


I think Irenaeus means angels don’t die and I agree with him since they don’t have bodies to begin with. But he’s also saying that our resurrection (where we are made immortal) has nothing to do with spirits (angels) being naturally immortal.


Also, Chapter VI is a good one for this three part man (body/soul/spirit) discussion if you care what someone like him thinks about it. I tend to agree with Irenaeus’ points there. But it’s a deep discussion. I try not to pick just one verse out of the bible to prove man has either two or three parts since you could also pick a verse that says man has a ‘heart’ and add a fourth part, etc. It’s one of those things that are not so clear in the bible as people tend to think it is. They all have their favorite verses,


But I certainly agree that man has an immaterial part that goes to be with the Lord at the body’s death and a material part that returns to dust. I think the Bible as a whole uses ‘spirit’ in several different ways and is also translated from many different Hebrew and Greek words so it is difficult to discern.

Yes, the body we will receive at the resurrection will be immortal.

The spirit within exists even though the body has died.

At what point do you believe the spirit ceases to exist?

What would be the foundational scripture that instructs us that the spirit of man ceases to exist?


JLB

 

[Michael74]

OK, I don't thin the lake of fire is symbolic, I think it's Gehenna.

What is the point of such a place, if only frail nephesh (נֶפֶש) need to be destroyed. Why bother?

 

[Butch5]

What is the point of such a place, if only frail nephesh (נֶפֶש) need to be destroyed. Why bother?

I'm not following you. I believe it body and soul.

 

[chessman]

At what point do you believe the spirit ceases to exist?

What would be the foundational scripture that instructs us that the spirit of man ceases to exist?


JLB

For the saved, our spirit/immaterial self never ceases to exist. We don't go to Hell or The LoF. So I don't know of any foundational Scriptures that teach the saved's spirit 'ceases to exist'.

For the lost, their soul/spirit and body is destroyed in Hell/LoF.

I use all the Scriptures and in particular the ones I just posted and:

Matt 10:28, John 3:16, 1 Tim 6:16, 2 Thess 1:9, Rev 20 come to mind:

Revelation 20:14b-15 This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28, 38 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

1 Timothy 6:16 the one who alone possesses immortality, who lives in unapproachable light, whom no human being has seen nor is able to see, to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

i could list dozens more but they all are true and consistent with these. I've never found one that I thought conflicted with what they say.

Do you have a foundational verse or two that teaches you God cannot administer a penalty of destruction that last forever or a 2nd death of both the soul and body in Hell?

Or that a wicked man's spirit lives on immortally forever once his soul is destroyed in Hell?

Or that Adam/Eve will get their original bodies back and apply their immortal spirits to them? Or do they need Jesus for that?

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

footnote interjection : they certainly and absolutely need Yeshua. without and/or apart from Him all perish.

 

[Michael74]

I'm not following you. I believe it body and soul.

In the first post of this thread, you wrote:

I have to conclude that man cannot live apart from the body.

If the 2nd death can be accomplished by simply zapping the body, why bother with something as complicated as an everlasting Gehenna?

...man is not conscious after death...

Then why bother tossing man into something that lasts forever?

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11 KJV

What exactly is being tormented here? Can an earthly body survive in such a place for ever and ever? Maybe the body dies (2nd death), and the ghost is tormented forever.

 

[Edward]

Wow, what a thoroughly (confusing) and interesting thread. I know little about the reality of this question so could only offer mere opinion, which I will, but then shall follow this thread with much interest.

Personal (opinion only), I believe that we have three aspects to our existance. Body, soul, and spirit. I do not hink that soul is a combination term for Body + spirit = living soul. What I do (think) is that we have a body, formed of the dust of the ground. We have the Spirit of life (breath of God if you will, belongs to God, returns to God), and soul. This is "us" which is our spiritual, being, individual personality, and identity. We have a body to reside in, have received Gods breath/spirit which animates us and brings us to life. Like a child when he is born, his mind and personality and character, who he "is" is a blank tablet at that time.

While we reside in our body, and have the energy of life (God's Spirit/life force etc.,) allows us to live, learn, have experiences and become someone, some "one". What we do with it is up to us. We are essentially creating our own person, identity, good, evil, whatever. If we turn to God our soul will become a good man as God wills. If we turn to the world and learn it's ways and live by them, we turn to be a bad man, and will be punished by death.

If there be only two aspects of ourselves, body and spirit of God, then I don't understand how if we are to reject God and go to eternal hell, then...what would this be? Would this be God punishing his own spirit? Separating a portion of Himself from Himself for eternity? This does not compute to me, but what do I know?

If we go to heaven, then god is rewarding Himself? Then who are we? Our body will dissolve, God's Spirit will return to Himself, so where's Butch? Where's Edward?

There's your soul, brothers and sisters. We are spiritual beings, instructed to live for the spirit. To learn and grow and seek God. Does Satan want a piece of God for himself? He can not have that. He wants your soul, your being, you...to not go to God. If upon death, your body returns to the ground, Gods Spirit returns to Him, what will be left to occupy hell?

Fear not those who can destroy the body, but fear He who can destroy both body and soul? Huh. Will God destroy a part of Himself? It is your soul (you) which will be saved or perish. Your body will return to the ground. Your Spirit will return unto God. Your soul is up for grabs. Can we save (a portion of) God, by turning to Him? No. can God save our soul? A resounding YES brothers and sisters. I have no scriptures to share on this, to "proof it" in any way. But to me, there must be three aspects of us. Body, soul, spirit. We are spiritual beings, created in Gods image. God is a trinity. This makes sense to me.

 

[JLB]

For the saved, our spirit/immaterial self never ceases to exist. We don't go to Hell or The LoF. So I don't know of any foundational Scriptures that teach the saved's spirit 'ceases to exist'.

For the lost, their soul/spirit and body is destroyed in Hell/LoF.

Yes, I agree.

How long does the destroying last before the spirit/soul ceases to exist?

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night...
Revelation 14:10-11

...the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, they have no rest day or night...

1 Timothy 6:16 the one who alone possesses immortality, who lives in unapproachable light, whom no human being has seen nor is able to see, to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.

I agree God is immortal.

The question is, do spirit beings continue to exist after being cast into the lake of fire?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

God Himself chooses who He will grant immortality to, whether the righteous unto eternal life, or the damned unto eternal torment day and night.

He is the Father of spirits. Our spirit comes from the immortal God.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

Eternal destruction is what the devil and his angels will face in the lake of fire, and those who worship the beast and take his mark.

In addition those who do not know God and those who do not obey the Gospel will be sentenced to everlasting destruction.

I use all the Scriptures and in particular the ones I just posted and:

Matt 10:28, John 3:16, 1 Tim 6:16, 2 Thess 1:9, Rev 20 come to mind:

Revelation 20:14b-15 This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

...the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, they have no rest day or night...

And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 10:28, 38 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

...the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, they have no rest day or night...

And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The destruction will be eternal -

...will pay the penalty of eternal destruction...

And whoever does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Amen!

Or that a wicked man's spirit lives on immortally forever once his soul is destroyed in Hell?

The destruction continues for eternity, that is why it is called eternal destruction.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

Do you have a foundational verse or two that teaches you God cannot administer a penalty of destruction that last forever or a 2nd death of both the soul and body in Hell?

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-10

and again -

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

and here is what is prepared for the devil and his angels -

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10


JLB

 

[Butch5]

In the first post of this thread, you wrote:



If the 2nd death can be accomplished by simply zapping the body, why bother with something as complicated as an everlasting Gehenna?



Then why bother tossing man into something that lasts forever?

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:11 KJV

What exactly is being tormented here? Can an earthly body survive in such a place for ever and ever? Maybe the body dies (2nd death), and the ghost is tormented forever.

Hi Michael,

This conversation is a spin off of the Conditional Immortality thread. I don't believe that there is eternal torment. I believe that "all" will be raised, righteous and wicked and judged. The righteous will be given life the wicked cast into Gehenna as the second death where they will burn up. I don't believe that Gehenna is going to be a place of eternal burning because Jeremiah prophesies that Gehenna will at some point in the future be made holy to the Lord once again.


38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:1 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

Here are a few points I'd like to keep in the forefront. In Gen.2:7 It says that God formed man out of the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath of lives and man became a living being. The imagery is of God breathing into man something from Himself. The image is something coming out of God and going into man. This exchange cause a change in the lifeless body that He had formed, it transformed from a lifeless body to a living soul. Here is Websters definition of become.

Become
: to begin to be or come to be something specified : to begin to have a specified quality

: to look attractive on (someone) : to be flattering to (someone)

: to be suitable for (someone) : to be proper for (someone)

To begin to be. According to this Adam didn't exist before the breath of lives was breathed into him. According to Scripture these two components are what Adam was made of. We don't find anything being added to Adam after this point. From this I have to conclude that either Adam consisted of only those two parts or he was incomplete when God made him. They are the only two conclusions I see, (If anyone can show something addition please do), therefore. I don't see how we can claim anything more without it simply being speculation and not fact.

 

[Butch5]

KJV Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:19 KJV)

Here we have God saying what man is, he is dust. When he says what Adam is he doesn’t even mention the word spirit. He tells Adam, you are dust. He doesn’t say you’re spirit living in a body, he says you are dust. If you think about it this line up with what is said in Gen 2:7.

KJV Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:7 KJV)

Notice the wording here, God formed man out of the dust of the ground. The man was formed before he was given life. The passage calls him a man before he has life. That’s just what God said in Gen 3:19, you are dust. The man became a living soul after God breathed into him the breath of lives, however, according to Gen 2:7 he was a man before he received the breath of lives and both passages say he was dust.

 

[JLB]

Butch said -

I don't believe that there is eternal torment.

The Word of God says -

And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Your "belief" is directly opposed to what the bible teaches.


JLB

 

[Butch5]

The Word of God says -

And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Your "belief" is directly opposed to what the bible teaches.


JLB

No it isn't that passage has been addressed several times. Also, if you study the term that is translated forever and ever, you'll see that it doesn't necessarily mean forever.

 

[Butch5]

When we see the word "forever" in the Scriptures it is always translated correctly? Does it always mean forever? The answer is no, below are just a few of the many passages in which forever cannot mean eternity


11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.
12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. {gods: or, princes}
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. {to destroy...: Heb. for a destruction}
14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. (Exo 12:11-14 KJV)

Is the Passover to be kept today or is there a new covenant? Is this an everlasting covenant or was Paul wrong?

17 And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever. (Exo 12:17 KJV)

Is this an everlasting covenant or is Paul wrong?

9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD. (Exo 19:9 KJV)

Did the people believe Moses forever or were they rejected from the promised land for unbelief?

KJV Exodus 21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.
2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
3 If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. {by himself: Heb. with his body}
4 If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.
5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: {shall...: Heb. saying shall say}
6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (Exo 21:1-6 KJV)

Will a servant serve his master when he's dead?

20 And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring thee pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the lamp to burn always. {to burn: Heb. to ascend up}
21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel. (Exo 27:20-21 KJV)

Are the Israelites still bringing pure olive oil to burn in the lamp in the tabernacle?

42 And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach: {their...: Heb. flesh of their nakedness} {reach: Heb. be}
43 And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they come in unto the tabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they bear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a statute for ever unto him and his seed after him. (Exo 28:42-43 KJV)

Are the priests still required to wear linen breeches? Paul said the old covenant ended was he wrong?

19 For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat:
20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
21 So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations. (Exo 30:19-21 KJV)

Are priests still going into the tabernacle to and ministering at the altar. Paul said the old covenant ended, was he wrong?

11 And David saved neither man nor woman alive, to bring tidings to Gath, saying, Lest they should tell on us, saying, So did David, and so will be his manner all the while he dwelleth in the country of the Philistines.
12 And Achish believed David, saying, He hath made his people Israel utterly to abhor him; therefore he shall be my servant for ever. (1Sa 27:11-12 KJV)

Can one man serve another forever? Happens when one of them dies?

2 And David said to Achish, Surely thou shalt know what thy servant can do. And Achish said to David, Therefore will I make thee keeper of mine head for ever. (1Sa 28:2 KJV)

Is David going to serve Achish forever?

28 But if he be not able to restore it to him, then that which is sold shall remain in the hand of him that hath bought it until the year of jubile: and in the jubile it shall go out, and he shall return unto his possession.
29 And if a man sell a dwelling house in a walled city, then he may redeem it within a whole year after it is sold; within a full year may he redeem it.
30 And if it be not redeemed within the space of a full year, then the house that is in the walled city shall be established for ever to him that bought it throughout his generations: it shall not go out in the jubile. (Lev 25:28-30 KJV)

Did these houses exist forever? Were they never destroyed?

This is just a few of many, many passages where forever, cannot possibly mean forever, even though that is the way translators have decided to translate it.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm not following you. I believe it body and soul.

Good day, Butch. Hope all is well with you.

What I am understanding from you is that the body is material and the soul is nothing more than part of the material substance as is the mind. If that is so then when the material body dies the material soul dies.
So it is simply the material mind that accepts there is a God, that Jesus is the Messiah, etc. and that the mind is what communicates with God. It is the material mind that the Holy Spirit regenerates and causes the mind to become the new creature in Christ.
Even though the mind has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit that material mind dies when the body dies and is resurrected when the material body is resurrected.
Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Butch5]

Good day, Butch. Hope all is well with you.

What I am understanding from you is that the body is material and the soul is nothing more than part of the material substance as is the mind. If that is so then when the material body dies the material soul dies.
So it is simply the material mind that accepts there is a God, that Jesus is the Messiah, etc. and that the mind is what communicates with God. It is the material mind that the Holy Spirit regenerates and causes the mind to become the new creature in Christ.
Even though the mind has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit that material mind dies when the body dies and is resurrected when the material body is resurrected.
Am I understanding you correctly?

Hi Deb,

I'm good, hope all is well with you! I'm saying man is a physical being not a spiritual one. However, he is composed of two parts, one the Physical body and the other the breath/spirit that he receives from God. These two together constitute a living soul and without either component there is no soul. Man needs the breath/spirit as much as he needs the body. The passage from Isaiah says that the breath gives him understanding, that's Neshamah, the same word used for the breath of life. This indicates to me that it is more than just physical atoms that make up the brain that give us understanding. It seems from the picture that both the brain and the breath are necessary for us to understand that there is a God and that we are in need of Him. This would also explain the seemingly innate desire in man to seek God.

 

[Butch5]

Another aspect of language that we need to keep in mind is the figurative use of the word spirit. Here are several examples.

23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit. (Pro 29:23 KJV)

8 Better is the end of a thing than the beginning thereof: and the patient in spirit is better than the proud in spirit. (Ecc 7:8 KJV)

24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine. (Isa 29:24 KJV)

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, (1Co 5:3 KJV)

12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. (1Ti 4:12 KJV)