Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Deborah13]

Hey JLB I might not be the same as Butch in this area atm.

Joh 3:5-6 KJV Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here we see the Holy Spirit is instrumental in our rebirth and entry into the Kingdom. Yahweh gave us life by His Spirit/ breath and when we are born again we receive the Holy Spirit. I see this as Yahweh interacting with and renewing His own Spirit inside us. This makes sense to me because salvation is entirely His work in us.

The passage is interesting though because it says " That which is born of flesh is flesh" . What does this mean to you ? ie. are you suggesting a non believer has no spirit ? I'm asking because there's a contrast between the states of the Born again and the fleshly born.



Interesting Deb. I don't see any indication here that Solomon is suggesting different destinations for the spirit of man and animals. The point is that Yahweh gave life/spirit to all animals and this comes directly from Genesis imo.



Hezekiah here is crook and thanking God is his life basically I think. I suggest Hezekiah uses spirit here as a simile for his God given life and his soul is his whole being. Spirit + body = soul. I guess it is also acceptable to suggest spirit here is God's in the same way as all living beings have God's spirit.

Hey agua,
You don't see a different destination between upward and downward?

 

[agua.]

Hey agua,
You don't see a different destination between upward and downward?

Solomon was showing that animals and humans have the same fate Deb ( return to dust ) and wasn't saying that the spirit of animals went down and we went up. He was saying this rhetorically as in " don't think too highly of yourself you will die the same as a beast." imo All life giving spirit returns to God at death.

 

[jeff77]

From what I have read so far in this thread and others about Conditional Immortality says that man only becomes immortal when they become a believer and receive God's spirit in them but also I read several post that said all men receive God's spirit when we are created or born (the breath of life). This seems to be a contradiction or I am reading it wrong?

 

[JLB]

From what I have read so far in this thread and others about Conditional Immortality says that man only becomes immortal when they become a believer and receive God's spirit in them but also I read several post that said all men receive God's spirit when we are created or born (the breath of life). This seems to be a contradiction or I am reading it wrong?

No Jeff you are reading correctly. It is a contradiction.

People wrongly assume when reading Genesis 2:7...

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

...that God breathed into man after Adam as well, and if we assume this, then we also must assume that God formed every man from the dust of the ground, rather than Adam begetting Seth, and so on.

Did God form every man from the dust of the ground, and breath His Breath into every man? NO.

Furthermore, is every man called God's son, or is the title unique with Adam?

38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Luke 3:38

This experience was unique to Adam, and Eve as well.

Men are not called sons of God until they have been born of God Himself.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1


JLB

 

[Michael74]

From what I have read so far in this thread and others about Conditional Immortality says that man only becomes immortal when they become a believer and receive God's spirit in them but also I read several post that said all men receive God's spirit when we are created or born (the breath of life). This seems to be a contradiction or I am reading it wrong?

The first birth and the 2nd birth (born again) are two different things. The first birth gives you a soul which survives the death of the body, but that soul can later be destroyed in the fires of hell. The 2nd birth gives you life eternal by placing your name in the book of life (circumcision of the heart, fruits of the Spirit, holiness, etc...) Supporting Scriptures:

The soul survives the body's death.

The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. Luke 16:22-23 NIV

The soul can be "destroyed" by God in the fires of hell.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 KJV

Anyone whose names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15 KJV

To be written in the Lamb's Book of Life you must be born again.

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. John 3:5-6 NIV

 

[Butch5]

Butch5

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

I think what Solomon is saying here is that both a man's and animal's bodies die and go to the grave. But then he sees that man's spirit is not the same as an animal's spirit. They are different, they are not the same.
He says the animal's spirit is tied, if you will, to the earth but not so man's spirit.
He goes on to say that a man should rejoice in what his life is now. He cannot see what will come after he dies. But he believes that there is definitely something and somewhere his spirit will go.
He clearly says that man has a spirit. And that animals have a spirit.

Isa 38:15 --What do I say? seeing He said to me, And He Himself hath wrought, I go softly all my years for the bitterness of my soul. [will, oneself]
Isa 38:16 Lord, by these do men live, And by all in them is the life of my spirit, And Thou savest me, make me also to live,
Isa 38:17 Lo, to peace He changed for me bitterness, And Thou hast delighted in my soul without corruption, For Thou hast cast behind Thy back all my sins.

soul = http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H5315&t=KJV
spirit =http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7307&t=KJV

Isaiah says 'my soul' and 'my spirit'.

Hi Deb,

One thing that I think will help everyone is if we use the word "breath" instead of "spirit". The reason I say that is because everyone has a preconceived idea of what they believe a spirit is. I think we can all agree on what breath is. Solomon does say that the breath of a man goes upward and the breath of the animal goes downward. I don't think he sees them a different breaths but rather they go to a different place. The reason I say this is because he states that both man and animal have one breath. We know from Genesis that everything that lives has the breath of life.

Regarding the passage from Isaiah, he does say my soul and my spirit. I think by "my soul" he means, my life. Nephesh (soul) is frequently translated life. However, I do want to address the statement "My spirit". This phrase appears is the Scriptures quite a few times as do the words man's spirit or spirit of man, etc. If we look at the creation account in Gen.2:7 we find the phrase, the "breath of life" is actually the "Breath of Lives" This could be understood as one breath shared among all living or it could be that each living soul has a breath of life. Either way if every person has a breath of life we need some way to differentiate between the breath of life in John and the breath of life in Jane. If we just use the term breath of life we have no way of knowing who is being referred to. So, how do I specify whose breath of life and am speaking of? I use a possessive term, that's how we do it in English. So if I was talking about John's breath of life, I would say, his breath, and for Jane, her breath. By doing this I am indicating the breath of life in a specific individual as opposed to the general term the breath of life. We do this in other thins in the English language also, for instance I might say, "I need to catch my breath", or John had to catch his breath. Do I or John own the air that we are breathing in, or is that air who we are as a person? No, it's simply indicating the air that I or John are currently using. We have the same situation with money, people say, this is my money and that is your money. Is it really? All US currency is the property of the US government, we simply use a possessive to indicate who is in possession of the money. If every man has a breath of life in him there needs to be a way to differentiate between the breath of life in different people, this seems the most reasonable way to do so.

The bottom line is that we have to harmonize "all" of the passage that deal with this subject if we are going to arrive at the truth. The way I explained above I how I harmonize all of the passages. We have some passages that say man has one breath and we have some that say the breath of a man. The only way that I have found to harmonize them is to say that the breath of a man is the breath of God.

Let's look at this passage because some believe that this proves that man can live on after death.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, (Heb 12:22-23 KJV)

Some say, see, these spirits are of just men and are in heaven. Let's look at it from another angle. Let's do as I said and use the word breath instead of spirit. First, let's consider Gen 2:7 man is created from the dust and God's breathes into him the breath of life. Then we move to Ecc 3 where Solomon said that man and animal both have one breath, he says that when a man dies his body returns to the dust and the breath returns to God. Now let's look Heb 12 and translate pneuma as breath instead of spirit

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the breaths of just men made perfect,

If we translate it "to the breaths of just men made perfect" It fits nicely with everything I've said. We don't have to understand that this is speaking of the disembodied consciousnesses of just men but rather the breaths of just men who have died and their breaths have returned to God just as Solomon said they do.

 

[Butch5]

Hello Butch,

So you are saying Jesus was referring to the fact that people cannot do anything to the resurrected nephesh (נֶפֶש). Maybe, but God would hardly need hell to destroy a body composed of mere flesh. All He would have to do is once more remove his breath, and back to dust is would go.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 KJV

If the nephesh (נֶפֶש)/psyche does not have the breath, it is mere dust. There would seem to be no point in sending inanimate dust to hell for destruction.

Hi Michael,

Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not saying man can do nothing to the resurrected nephesh. What I'm saying is that ultimately God determines who lives and dies not man. If a man kills a person that person though dead at the time will live again. I believe what Jesus means is that man may be able to kill in this life but he has no ability to effect the eventual outcome of that persons existence. Since everyone will be resurrected a persons life has not ultimately been destroyed even though the body has been killed. Notice in the passage Jesus speaks of man "killing" the body, but says that God is able to, not kill, but destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. The point is if man kills it's temporary because one will be raised again, however, If God destroys that it, it's done, there is no coming back from that. Does that help clear up what I said?

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb,

One thing that I think will help everyone is if we use the word "breath" instead of "spirit". The reason I say that is because everyone has a preconceived idea of what they believe a spirit is. I think we can all agree on what breath is. Solomon does say that the breath of a man goes upward and the breath of the animal goes downward. I don't think he sees them a different breaths but rather they go to a different place. The reason I say this is because he states that both man and animal have one breath. We know from Genesis that everything that lives has the breath of life.

Regarding the passage from Isaiah, he does say my soul and my spirit. I think by "my soul" he means, my life. Nephesh (soul) is frequently translated life. However, I do want to address the statement "My spirit". This phrase appears is the Scriptures quite a few times as do the words man's spirit or spirit of man, etc. If we look at the creation account in Gen.2:7 we find the phrase, the "breath of life" is actually the "Breath of Lives" This could be understood as one breath shared among all living or it could be that each living soul has a breath of life. Either way if every person has a breath of life we need some way to differentiate between the breath of life in John and the breath of life in Jane. If we just use the term breath of life we have no way of knowing who is being referred to. So, how do I specify whose breath of life and am speaking of? I use a possessive term, that's how we do it in English. So if I was talking about John's breath of life, I would say, his breath, and for Jane, her breath. By doing this I am indicating the breath of life in a specific individual as opposed to the general term the breath of life. We do this in other thins in the English language also, for instance I might say, "I need to catch my breath", or John had to catch his breath. Do I or John own the air that we are breathing in, or is that air who we are as a person? No, it's simply indicating the air that I or John are currently using. We have the same situation with money, people say, this is my money and that is your money. Is it really? All US currency is the property of the US government, we simply use a possessive to indicate who is in possession of the money. If every man has a breath of life in him there needs to be a way to differentiate between the breath of life in different people, this seems the most reasonable way to do so.

The bottom line is that we have to harmonize "all" of the passage that deal with this subject if we are going to arrive at the truth. The way I explained above I how I harmonize all of the passages. We have some passages that say man has one breath and we have some that say the breath of a man. The only way that I have found to harmonize them is to say that the breath of a man is the breath of God.

Let's look at this passage because some believe that this proves that man can live on after death.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, (Heb 12:22-23 KJV)

Some say, see, these spirits are of just men and are in heaven. Let's look at it from another angle. Let's do as I said and use the word breath instead of spirit. First, let's consider Gen 2:7 man is created from the dust and God's breathes into him the breath of life. Then we move to Ecc 3 where Solomon said that man and animal both have one breath, he says that when a man dies his body returns to the dust and the breath returns to God. Now let's look Heb 12 and translate pneuma as breath instead of spirit

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the breaths of just men made perfect,

If we translate it "to the breaths of just men made perfect" It fits nicely with everything I've said. We don't have to understand that this is speaking of the disembodied consciousnesses of just men but rather the breaths of just men who have died and their breaths have returned to God just as Solomon said they do.

So when do you believe we receive this breath of life?
And how do we receive it?

 

[Butch5]

Hey JLB I might not be the same as Butch in this area atm.

Joh 3:5-6 KJV Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Here we see the Holy Spirit is instrumental in our rebirth and entry into the Kingdom. Yahweh gave us life by His Spirit/ breath and when we are born again we receive the Holy Spirit. I see this as Yahweh interacting with and renewing His own Spirit inside us. This makes sense to me because salvation is entirely His work in us.

The passage is interesting though because it says " That which is born of flesh is flesh" . What does this mean to you ? ie. are you suggesting a non believer has no spirit ? I'm asking because there's a contrast between the states of the Born again and the fleshly born.

Hi agau,

You said the passage is interesting because Jesus said " That which is born of flesh is flesh". I'd like to throw something out for consideration. I believe the reason Jesus said that is because He was speaking to Nicodemus who was a Jew. I believe it's because he was a Jew that Jesus said, "you must be born again". Before the kingdom was taken away, the Jews had the kingdom of God and were awaiting their Messiah. They understood that if a man was born a Jew and was circumcised on the 8th day he was part of the covenant and heir to promises of Abraham because he was born of the physical seed of Abraham. I believe the statement, "you must be born again" is a refutation of Nicodemus' understanding of how one enters the kingdom of God. I believe what He's actually saying is, no Nicodemus, being born the physical seed of Abraham will not get you into the kingdom of God. I think the statement, "you must be born again" is akin to entering the kingdom is by another means.

If you look up the phrase "born again" you'll find that it only appears three times in the Scriptures and every time it's being spoken to Jews. Paul the apostle to the Gentiles didn't use the term once in any of the writings we have that are the NT books, not once. Here are the times it appears, twice to Nicodemus and once in 1 Peter which is written to the Jews of the Dispersion.

KJV John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
KJV John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV 1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

That the phrase is never use when addressing the Gentiles strongly suggests to me that Jesus was addressing the Jewish understanding that they were in the kingdom through birth.

 

[Butch5]

So when do you believe we receive this breath of life?
And how do we receive it?

I believe it's at conception but how I can't say. I can only surmise that God does it somehow.

 

[Deborah13]

So are you saying the God's breath provides our bodies with the ability to form in the womb, become animated, and to be able to think with that part of the body that is our brain?
Does it provide us with anything else?

 

[Butch5]

From what I have read so far in this thread and others about Conditional Immortality says that man only becomes immortal when they become a believer and receive God's spirit in them but also I read several post that said all men receive God's spirit when we are created or born (the breath of life). This seems to be a contradiction or I am reading it wrong?

Hi Jeff,

I can't speak for others but can tell you what I believe. I don't believe one becomes immortal when they believe. I believe that the believer becomes immortal (not innately but by continually receiving life from God) when he or she is resurrected. As I understand it no one at present with the exception of Jesus (And the Father and Holy Spirit) is immortal. I believe that all flesh receives the breath of life from God. The Greek words Neshamah and ruwach are translated breath and/or spirit and both are used in the phrase "breath of life". I believe that the "breath of life" is something that comes out of God as He gives us the imagery "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;" It seems to me that this is something that comes out of God.

 

[Butch5]

So are you saying the God's breath provides our bodies with the ability to form in the womb, become animated, and to be able to think with that part of the body that is our brain?
Does it provide us with anything else?

Yes, that's what I believe. I believe the breath gives us the ability to do all we do because it's what animates our bodies.

8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. (Job 32:8 KJV)

In this verse spirit is ruwach and the word inspiration is the word Neshamah. Literally it says,


8 But there is a spirit in man: and the breath of the Almighty giveth them understanding. (Job 32:8 KJV)

This breath, Neshamah, is the same word used in Gen 2:7 for the breath of life.

Here Isaiah uses both terms

5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: (Isa 42:5 KJV)

Breath is Neshamah, and spirit is ruwach. I believe this is a parallelism where the same thing is stated twice. Isaiah is referring to the creation and says that God gives breath to the people on the earth and He gives them spirit. Notice Isaiah says that God gives them spirit not gave them a spirit.

 

[Michael74]

Hello Butch, thanks for answering.

Hi Michael,

Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not saying man can do nothing to the resurrected nephesh. What I'm saying is that ultimately God determines who lives and dies not man. If a man kills a person that person though dead at the time will live again. I believe what Jesus means is that man may be able to kill in this life but he has no ability to effect the eventual outcome of that persons existence. Since everyone will be resurrected a persons life has not ultimately been destroyed even though the body has been killed. Notice in the passage Jesus speaks of man "killing" the body, but says that God is able to, not kill, but destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. The point is if man kills it's temporary because one will be raised again, however, If God destroys that it, it's done, there is no coming back from that. Does that help clear up what I said?

Only if one assumes γέεννα is figurative, rather than a literal place. Plus a few other of assumptions of figurative, rather than literal, interpretations of several New Testament passages.

Either way, God alone will make the ultimate decision.

 

[Butch5]

Hello Butch, thanks for answering.



Only if one assumes γέεννα is figurative, rather than a literal place. Plus a few other of assumptions of figurative, rather than literal, interpretations of several New Testament passages.

Either way, God alone will make the ultimate decision.

I'm not following you. I understand Gehenna as a literal place.

 

[Michael74]

I'm not following you. I understand Gehenna as a literal place.

Right, literally Valley of Hinnom. Poor choice of words on my part.

Assuming the Lake of fire is symbolic would be more apposite.

 

[JLB]

Hi Deb,

One thing that I think will help everyone is if we use the word "breath" instead of "spirit". The reason I say that is because everyone has a preconceived idea of what they believe a spirit is. I think we can all agree on what breath is. Solomon does say that the breath of a man goes upward and the breath of the animal goes downward. I don't think he sees them a different breaths but rather they go to a different place. The reason I say this is because he states that both man and animal have one breath. We know from Genesis that everything that lives has the breath of life.

Regarding the passage from Isaiah, he does say my soul and my spirit. I think by "my soul" he means, my life. Nephesh (soul) is frequently translated life. However, I do want to address the statement "My spirit". This phrase appears is the Scriptures quite a few times as do the words man's spirit or spirit of man, etc. If we look at the creation account in Gen.2:7 we find the phrase, the "breath of life" is actually the "Breath of Lives" This could be understood as one breath shared among all living or it could be that each living soul has a breath of life. Either way if every person has a breath of life we need some way to differentiate between the breath of life in John and the breath of life in Jane. If we just use the term breath of life we have no way of knowing who is being referred to. So, how do I specify whose breath of life and am speaking of? I use a possessive term, that's how we do it in English. So if I was talking about John's breath of life, I would say, his breath, and for Jane, her breath. By doing this I am indicating the breath of life in a specific individual as opposed to the general term the breath of life. We do this in other thins in the English language also, for instance I might say, "I need to catch my breath", or John had to catch his breath. Do I or John own the air that we are breathing in, or is that air who we are as a person? No, it's simply indicating the air that I or John are currently using. We have the same situation with money, people say, this is my money and that is your money. Is it really? All US currency is the property of the US government, we simply use a possessive to indicate who is in possession of the money. If every man has a breath of life in him there needs to be a way to differentiate between the breath of life in different people, this seems the most reasonable way to do so.

The bottom line is that we have to harmonize "all" of the passage that deal with this subject if we are going to arrive at the truth. The way I explained above I how I harmonize all of the passages. We have some passages that say man has one breath and we have some that say the breath of a man. The only way that I have found to harmonize them is to say that the breath of a man is the breath of God.

Let's look at this passage because some believe that this proves that man can live on after death.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, (Heb 12:22-23 KJV)

Some say, see, these spirits are of just men and are in heaven. Let's look at it from another angle. Let's do as I said and use the word breath instead of spirit. First, let's consider Gen 2:7 man is created from the dust and God's breathes into him the breath of life. Then we move to Ecc 3 where Solomon said that man and animal both have one breath, he says that when a man dies his body returns to the dust and the breath returns to God. Now let's look Heb 12 and translate pneuma as breath instead of spirit

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the breaths of just men made perfect,

If we translate it "to the breaths of just men made perfect" It fits nicely with everything I've said. We don't have to understand that this is speaking of the disembodied consciousnesses of just men but rather the breaths of just men who have died and their breaths have returned to God just as Solomon said they do.

16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

The Breath Himself bears witness with our breath that we are children of God ?


This would only confuse people.

God is not the Author of confusion, Butch. Let's just teach what the Bible says.

Why is there such a great concern with you to eliminate the truth that man has his own spirit?

Please share with me this concern of yours.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Right, literally Valley of Hinnom. Poor choice of words on my part.

Assuming the Lake of fire is symbolic would be more apposite.

The Valley of Hinnon [Gehenna] would be a type of the lake of fire.


JLB

 

[Michael74]

Valley of Hinnom circa 1900

 

[Butch5]

Right, literally Valley of Hinnom. Poor choice of words on my part.

Assuming the Lake of fire is symbolic would be more apposite.

OK, I don't thin the lake of fire is symbolic, I think it's Gehenna.