Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb,

I'm good, hope all is well with you! I'm saying man is a physical being not a spiritual one. However, he is composed of two parts, one the Physical body and the other the breath/spirit that he receives from God. These two together constitute a living soul and without either component there is no soul. Man needs the breath/spirit as much as he needs the body. The passage from Isaiah says that the breath gives him understanding, that's Neshamah, the same word used for the breath of life. This indicates to me that it is more than just physical atoms that make up the brain that give us understanding. It seems from the picture that both the brain and the breath are necessary for us to understand that there is a God and that we are in need of Him. This would also explain the seemingly innate desire in man to seek God.

"The passage from Isaiah says that the breath gives him understanding, that's Neshamah, the same word used for the breath of life. This indicates to me that it is more than just physical atoms that make up the brain that give us understanding."

So could I say from this statement that you believe that the "breath of life" is more than what simply animates the body and allows the brain to function?
That this breath of life also gives something that allows the brain to understand that there is a God, to desire to seek God, and to understand the things of God?

 

[Edward]

Butch:...I'm saying man is a physical being not a spiritual one.

One question brother. Why are we told to live for the spirit if we are physical beings?

 

[Butch5]

One question brother. Why are we told to live for the spirit if we are physical beings?

Hi Edward,

Can you tell me what passage you're referencing so i can get the context?

 

[Chopper]

16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

The Breath Himself bears witness with our breath that we are children of God ?


This would only confuse people.

God is not the Author of confusion, Butch. Let's just teach what the Bible says.

Why is there such a great concern with you to eliminate the truth that man has his own spirit?

Please share with me this concern of yours.


JLB

Easy JLB, if something a little different than what you are used to, but will help someone else understand a point of discussion, I wish you would post things that encourage and build up, rather than tear down because it doesn't dot the I or cross a T the way you do. Please!

 

[Butch5]

"The passage from Isaiah says that the breath gives him understanding, that's Neshamah, the same word used for the breath of life. This indicates to me that it is more than just physical atoms that make up the brain that give us understanding."

So could I say from this statement that you believe that the "breath of life" is more than what simply animates the body and allows the brain to function?
That this breath of life also gives something that allows the brain to understand that there is a God, to desire to seek God, and to understand the things of God?

I think this could be understood in a couple ways. The passage says the breath gives understanding, that could mean the breath literally gives understanding or it could mean that the breath gives the ability to understand. It brings to mind the passage from John.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(Joh 1:6-9 KJV)

This passage seems to be addressing the same issue. John says that Christ gives light (understanding) to every person coming into the world.

 

[Deborah13]

Butch5

This is the post from the CI thread that was in response to you.

Our spirit (or he in my response) living in this world without a body?

I'm not saying he couldn't just that he is not at liberty to do that or even has the capability to separate himself from his body. I would say that is only within the capability of God.

Which brings to my mind 1Samuel 28 which was discussed in a recent thread. Remembering that this event happened before Christ's resurrection...
God allowed Samuel, who's body had died, to speak to Saul who's body was alive.
Now I know some people believe that it was a demon who was speaking to Saul but if so then that would say that demons know the future. satan doesn't even know the future and more importantly ....

1Sa 28:18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

If these are the words of a demon spirit I am confounded. That is likened to Jesus speaking to the Pharisees when they said that He was casting out demons by the power of satan. Jesus said that if that were true then satan's house was divided.

So I see that by the power of God Samuel being not in the body of flesh spoke to Saul who was in the body of flesh.

 

[chessman]

In this thread specifically about man's soul/spirit and what (if anything) survives forever in Hell, I asked you for the foundational Scriptures that you use for your doctrinal teaching that it’s man’s spirit that survives Hell forever:

Do you have a foundational verse or two that teaches you;

1. that a wicked man's spirit lives on immortally forever ...?

2. Or that Adam/Eve will get their original bodies back and apply their immortal spirits ...?

I asked you these questions after presenting several foundational Scriptures that I use that teach the destruction of both the body and the soul in Hell and that the resurrected wicked really do receive a 2nd death of both body and soul (this time) and that this time it is the fearful One administering that punishment and that He also happens to be the ONLY immortal being and that every other creature (including angels and Adam/Eve) receives immortality from Him if they actual do get immortality.


And you answer with these verses:

Revelation 14:10-11

Revelation 20:10

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10

Matthew 25:41

I will consider each verse and what you say about them (just so you know that I have done this and that it would be dishonest to suggest that I’ve ignored them or disregard what they do say, in the future). But first, my overall observation is that not a single one of these verses you mentioned even mentions the wicked's spirit or Adam’s spirit. None even contain the word for spirit in them. Thus, my response to this fact is that building a foundation about man’s spirit surviving in Hell off of verses that don’t even mention spirit is highly suspect, prone to error and presuppositions and therefore not very good evidence for your case. But I’ll look further and see how you interacted with my foundational Scriptures and points about them:


You seemed to at first agree with my foundational verse (Matt 10:28) but then mentioned Revelation 14:10-11as if it somehow demonstrated conflict with my view and/or presented evidence that the wicked’s spirit lives on. I don’t get it. First, Rev 14 is John’s vision of the killing of the wicked’s bodies on Earth, not in Hell. Second it doesn’t even mention these peoples spirits (one way or the other). Thirdly, I know that Rev 14 is not “the rest of the story” for these people’s spirts/souls (a point we agree on). These people are raised to be judged (bodies reunited with their souls/spirits) then punished further via their 2nd Death described in Rev 20 and Matt 10:28. My view is consistent with Rev 14, Rev 20 and Matt 10:28, etc. It’s your view that somehow Rev 14 answers my question about their spirits. It doesn’t. Fourthly, this is a visionary apocalyptic mystery using obvious OT Hebrew idioms (and Scriptures) which John (Jesus’ actually, as He’s the one giving John the vision, IMO) knew his church readers would be familiar with but not necessarily the Roman authorities. Thus, in a way, hiding his real message from the Roman authorities but not anyone who is familiar with these OT passages that he’s obviously alluding to. Much like Jesus did while on the cross (Isaiah, Psalm, etc.) and in His other dealings with the Pharisees/Sadducees/High Priests and Roman rulers. Therefore, that’s one strike against your counter argument using Rev 14. Just to show you that I have considered this passage and it’s talking about Earthly death, not Hell’s destruction of their resurrected body/soul or the wicked’s spirits:


8 And another second angel followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, who caused all the nations to drink from the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality.”

9 And another third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself also will drink of the wine of the anger of God that has been mixed full strength in the cup of his wrath, and will be tortured with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torture went up forever and ever, and those who worshiped the beast and his image did not have rest day and night, along with anyone who received[c] the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patient endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write:

‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “in order that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow after them.”

The Earth is Harvested

14 And I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud was seated one like a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to the one seated on the cloud, “Send out your sickle and reap, because the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe!” 16 And the one seated on the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.


All these underlined verses (and the translation's title) clearly indicate that this vision is the reaping of the Earth and describing people’s first death (not their second) and it’s not a vision of what Hell is like either. Notice that the verse you mentioned is “in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” and thusly precludes Hell as the setting. Unless you think The Lamb is or will be in Hell. Do you?


And it’s not even talking about spirits in the first place. You interject your ideas into this verse and call it “foundational”. That’s called circular reasoning. Frankly, I think you merely point to it because it has the words torture, and forever and ever in it and are not honestly evaluating this passage for it’s true message. Also, notice that most study bibles and modern translations will add the note: the Text Literally says “for the ages of the ages”, not necessarily forever. There’s a new age coming in John's vision later on, right?

 

[chessman]

The next one of your foundational spirit texts that you mention is Revelation 20:10 in response to my foundational verse 2 Tim 1:16 and my point (a point you agree with in one breath, then disagree with in the next). My point was that only God gives life to all His creatures (angels, plants, animals, and man). God obviously gives life to all men (both spiritual life and physical life). There is no foundational Scripture that teaches otherwise. And it’s not in Rev 20:10 either.


Again, I think you just like this phrase that appears once again in Rev 20:10 so you post it as if those of us CI people have never analyzed these passages.


And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever[a].

Footnotes:

a. Revelation 20:10 Literally “for the ages of the ages”


Read on as the very next verses show you why this is not the end of the story. At this point in John’s vision the wicked people’s bodies are in the grave and as you and I both agree, there spirits/souls are either with the Lord (for the saved) or in Hades (for the lost). But regardless, how can this be a foundational verse for your case since 1) it’s talking about Satan and His demons not man’s spirits, 2) doesn’t even have the word spirit in it and 3) its setting is prior to the GWTJ and 4) it’s apocalyptic language pointing to OT passages.


Maybe this is a good point to add some information for you to evaluate and comment on. These phrases you like to point to as foundational to your doctrine. Have you ever actually studied them with an open mind? Here’s some highlights from Isaiah 34 (which is obviously what John’s vision is alluding to in Rev 14/20 among other OT passages):


Isaiah 34 Lexham English Bible (LEB) Judgment on the Nations

(John’s vision uses Four Beasts, just like Daniel’s 7. And Daniel 7 specifically says that his Beasts represent nations/kingdoms (not Satan or demons)) i.e. it is my opinion that John’s vision uses these phrases specifically to point his Christian readers back to Daniel, Isaiah and the rest of his allusions to these books. And thus, for us not to do that is missing John’s true point.)

IS 34:1 Come near, nations, to hear; [Rev 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud and blessed are those who hear the words of the prophecy and observe the things written in it, because the time is near!]

and peoples, listen attentively!

Let the earth hear, and that which fills it;

the world and all its offspring.

For the anger of Yahweh is against all the nations,

and his wrath is against all their armies;

he has put them under a ban,

he has given them up for slaughter.

3 And their slain shall be cast out;

as for their corpses, their stench shall go up.

And the mountains shall melt with their blood,

5 When my sword is drenched in the heavens, look! It will descend upon Edom,

and upon the people of my ban, for judgment.

6 Yahweh has a sword; it is full of blood…

and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.

8 For Yahweh has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution for the strife of Zion.

9 And its streams shall be changed to pitch and its soil to sulfur,

and its land shall become like burning pitch.

10 Night and day it shall not be quenched;

its smoke shall go up forever.

From generation to generation it shall be in ruins;

forever and ever there will be no one who passes through her.

12 Its nobles—but no kingdom is there—shall call,

and all its princes shall be nothing.

14 And desert creatures shall meet with hyenas,

and a goat-demon shall call to his neighbor;

16 Seek from the book of Yahweh and read


Obviously John desires his reader to recognize the message of Is 34 (among other OT prophecies). And the message of Is 34 is the anger of Yahweh is against all the nations, and his wrath is against all their armies.


Anyway, I have no idea how presenting Rev 20 somehow means that the spirits of the wicked exist in Hell under torment forever as even the imagery doesn’t say that even if taken literally. Maybe it’s a good time to repeat, if you had a verse that said the wicked spirits of men will be tormented in Hell forever it would be a great time to post it. And maybe, if a verse like that existed, you could use it for the foundation of your belief. But as it is, you have a belief about spirits of men lasting in Hell forever and you keep repeating the Rev passages that are not even talking about events past the second death of the wicked.


You simply re-posted the fact that Paul agrees with Jesus in 2 Thess 1:9 that the body and soul will be destroyed in Hell. No resurrection from that destruction. It last eternally. I agree.


Then you mention Matthew 25:41 which is odd because it provides much support for the foundational passages that I’ve mentioned and against your idea. That is, if you think about what it’s message is fully:


Matthew 25:41 (LEB)

Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!


Fish are made to swim in the ocean, men are not. Throw a man in the middle of the ocean and he will not survive long. If Hell has been prepared for the devil and his angels (as it demonstrates in John’s vision that it is) then how can resurrected men survive there for very long? Notice that this would have been a great place for Jesus to clarify that Hell was also prepared not just for the Devil and his angels but for the wicked. He does NOT say that. He specifically says that the wicked "Depart" from the only source of eternal life (which in and of itself means death) and not only that but they go somewhere that's not even prepared for them. It's like casting a milestone around the neck of a man and throwing him in the Sea. He's not going to last long in a place that's not meant for him to live. You know, the place of the 2nd Death.


And He certainly doesn’t say anything about the spirits of wicked men here. Which means it’s really not that foundational to your doctrine of men’s spirit’s in Hell, no is it.


In summary, your foundational verses are none existent for your doctrine.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5

This is the post from the CI thread that was in response to you.

Our spirit (or he in my response) living in this world without a body?

I'm not saying he couldn't just that he is not at liberty to do that or even has the capability to separate himself from his body. I would say that is only within the capability of God.

Which brings to my mind 1Samuel 28 which was discussed in a recent thread. Remembering that this event happened before Christ's resurrection...
God allowed Samuel, who's body had died, to speak to Saul who's body was alive.
Now I know some people believe that it was a demon who was speaking to Saul but if so then that would say that demons know the future. satan doesn't even know the future and more importantly ....

1Sa 28:18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

If these are the words of a demon spirit I am confounded. That is likened to Jesus speaking to the Pharisees when they said that He was casting out demons by the power of satan. Jesus said that if that were true then satan's house was divided.

So I see that by the power of God Samuel being not in the body of flesh spoke to Saul who was in the body of flesh.

Hi Deb,

You're basing that on your understanding of an event in Scripture, do you allow that you the demon interpretation is possible?

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb,

You're basing that on your understanding of an event in Scripture, do you allow that you the demon interpretation is possible?

I don't base any of my beliefs on one controversial scripture ever.

And no I don't allow for the demon interpretation at this point. I considered it and the posts of others that do believe it and I believe that it is flawed.
I brought this up because so many believe that the Abraham/thirsty rich man story is a parable and this one is obviously not a parable. Just something to consider.
This is the last thing that Samuel says to Saul...

1Sa 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

This is the only part of what Samuel said that cannot be verified in scripture as actually happening.
But if the rest of the prophecy was fulfilled I think it would be presumptuous to think that this part of the prophecy was not fulfilled. Would you agree?
Now what do we know about Saul's sons especially Jonathan? We know Jonathan was King David's protector when Saul wanted to kill him. We know Jonathan was lead by God, he was a Godly man.

Are demons the spirits of dead people? No
Was the prophecy fulfilled? Yes
So was the Godly man Jonathan with demons after he died? No
So can we say with at least some confidence that Jonathan was with Samuel after he died? I believe we can and I do.

 

[Butch5]

I don't base any of my beliefs on one controversial scripture ever.

And no I don't allow for the demon interpretation at this point. I considered it and the posts of others that do believe it and I believe that it is flawed.
I brought this up because so many believe that the Abraham/thirsty rich man story is a parable and this one is obviously not a parable. Just something to consider.
This is the last thing that Samuel says to Saul...

1Sa 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

This is the only part of what Samuel said that cannot be verified in scripture as actually happening.
But if the rest of the prophecy was fulfilled I think it would be presumptuous to think that this part of the prophecy was not fulfilled. Would you agree?
Now what do we know about Saul's sons especially Jonathan? We know Jonathan was King David's protector when Saul wanted to kill him. We know Jonathan was lead by God, he was a Godly man.

Are demons the spirits of dead people? No
Was the prophecy fulfilled? Yes
So was the Godly man Jonathan with demons after he died? No
So can we say with at least some confidence that Jonathan was with Samuel after he died? I believe we can and I do.

I don't base any of my beliefs on one controversial scripture ever.

And no I don't allow for the demon interpretation at this point. I considered it and the posts of others that do believe it and I believe that it is flawed.
I brought this up because so many believe that the Abraham/thirsty rich man story is a parable and this one is obviously not a parable. Just something to consider.
This is the last thing that Samuel says to Saul...

1Sa 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

This is the only part of what Samuel said that cannot be verified in scripture as actually happening.
But if the rest of the prophecy was fulfilled I think it would be presumptuous to think that this part of the prophecy was not fulfilled. Would you agree?
Now what do we know about Saul's sons especially Jonathan? We know Jonathan was King David's protector when Saul wanted to kill him. We know Jonathan was lead by God, he was a Godly man.

Are demons the spirits of dead people? No
Was the prophecy fulfilled? Yes
So was the Godly man Jonathan with demons after he died? No
So can we say with at least some confidence that Jonathan was with Samuel after he died? I believe we can and I do.

Hi Deb,

I believe you are referring to the text in blue, correct? Firstly, I wonder if it was a prophecy. God had rejected Saul so suppose that it was a demon and not Samuel that spoke to Saul and the demon knew that Saul was going to die because the demon was going to kill him. Without God's protection why couldn't that demon kill Saul? Even if it was a real prophecy that doesn't mean that it was Samuel speaking. Caiaphas, the one who was primarily responsible for killing Christ prophesied rightly. Also, we have in Kings an incident recorded pf a lying spirit going out from the Lord. Couldn't this be another incident of a lying spirit?

I know these are conjecture but I'm trying to make the point that what you see as a "prophecy" may not actually be one. The passage doesn't use the wither spirit or soul but specifically calls what the witch saw "eloheem" gods.

Another point is that the passage says Saul would die tomorrow, it's not likely that tomorrow is correct because the events that took place would take longer than a day to accomplish. The passage says that Saul returned from seeing the witch that night

4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa. 5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. 6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. 7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. (1Sa 28:1 KJV)

The Philistines were at Shunem and the Israelites at Gilboa, It was at this point that Saul sought the witch at En Dor. So, Saul had to travel to En Dor and back. The text says that he traveled back that night. When he gets back both the Philistines and the Israelites move their entire armies.

NKJ 1 Samuel 29:1 Then the Philistines gathered together all their armies at Aphek, and the Israelites encamped by a fountain which is in Jezreel.
2 And the lords of the Philistines passed in review by hundreds and by thousands, but David and his men passed in review at the rear with Achish. (1Sa 29:1-2 NKJ)

It would take quite some time to move thousands of men on foot to these new cities. I'm not certain but I believe that Aphek was about 40 miiles from Shunem. If the Philistine armies moved that distance they surely wouldn't fight the same day, they'd need to rest. It would like take a few days to move that many men that far.

I say all of that to make a point about the definition of the word translated "tomorrow"

04279 rx'm' machar {maw-khar'}
Meaning: 1) tomorrow, in time to come, in the future 1a) tomorrow (as the day following the present day) 1b) in future time

The word can mean tomorrow or it can simply mean a time in the future. Given the movement of the armies I don't think tomorrow is really the correct translation. If "a time in future" is a translation and that is what was meant by the one speaking through the witch then it's not much of a prophecy as anyone can say that someone else will die in the future.

None of this is hard cold evidence but I do think it's reason for questioning the idea that it was actually Samuel who was speaking.

 

[JLB]

The next one of your foundational spirit texts that you mention is Revelation 20:10 in response to my foundational verse 2 Tim 1:16 and my point (a point you agree with in one breath, then disagree with in the next). My point was that only God gives life to all His creatures (angels, plants, animals, and man). God obviously gives life to all men (both spiritual life and physical life). There is no foundational Scripture that teaches otherwise. And it’s not in Rev 20:10 either.


Again, I think you just like this phrase that appears once again in Rev 20:10 so you post it as if those of us CI people have never analyzed these passages.


And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever[a].

Footnotes:

a. Revelation 20:10 Literally “for the ages of the ages”


Read on as the very next verses show you why this is not the end of the story. At this point in John’s vision the wicked people’s bodies are in the grave and as you and I both agree, there spirits/souls are either with the Lord (for the saved) or in Hades (for the lost). But regardless, how can this be a foundational verse for your case since 1) it’s talking about Satan and His demons not man’s spirits, 2) doesn’t even have the word spirit in it and 3) its setting is prior to the GWTJ and 4) it’s apocalyptic language pointing to OT passages.


Maybe this is a good point to add some information for you to evaluate and comment on. These phrases you like to point to as foundational to your doctrine. Have you ever actually studied them with an open mind? Here’s some highlights from Isaiah 34 (which is obviously what John’s vision is alluding to in Rev 14/20 among other OT passages):


Isaiah 34 Lexham English Bible (LEB) Judgment on the Nations

(John’s vision uses Four Beasts, just like Daniel’s 7. And Daniel 7 specifically says that his Beasts represent nations/kingdoms (not Satan or demons)) i.e. it is my opinion that John’s vision uses these phrases specifically to point his Christian readers back to Daniel, Isaiah and the rest of his allusions to these books. And thus, for us not to do that is missing John’s true point.)

IS 34:1 Come near, nations, to hear; [Rev 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud and blessed are those who hear the words of the prophecy and observe the things written in it, because the time is near!]

and peoples, listen attentively!

Let the earth hear, and that which fills it;

the world and all its offspring.

For the anger of Yahweh is against all the nations,

and his wrath is against all their armies;

he has put them under a ban,

he has given them up for slaughter.

3 And their slain shall be cast out;

as for their corpses, their stench shall go up.

And the mountains shall melt with their blood,

5 When my sword is drenched in the heavens, look! It will descend upon Edom,

and upon the people of my ban, for judgment.

6 Yahweh has a sword; it is full of blood…

and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.

8 For Yahweh has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution for the strife of Zion.

9 And its streams shall be changed to pitch and its soil to sulfur,

and its land shall become like burning pitch.

10 Night and day it shall not be quenched;

its smoke shall go up forever.

From generation to generation it shall be in ruins;

forever and ever there will be no one who passes through her.

12 Its nobles—but no kingdom is there—shall call,

and all its princes shall be nothing.

14 And desert creatures shall meet with hyenas,

and a goat-demon shall call to his neighbor;

16 Seek from the book of Yahweh and read


Obviously John desires his reader to recognize the message of Is 34 (among other OT prophecies). And the message of Is 34 is the anger of Yahweh is against all the nations, and his wrath is against all their armies.


Anyway, I have no idea how presenting Rev 20 somehow means that the spirits of the wicked exist in Hell under torment forever as even the imagery doesn’t say that even if taken literally. Maybe it’s a good time to repeat, if you had a verse that said the wicked spirits of men will be tormented in Hell forever it would be a great time to post it. And maybe, if a verse like that existed, you could use it for the foundation of your belief. But as it is, you have a belief about spirits of men lasting in Hell forever and you keep repeating the Rev passages that are not even talking about events past the second death of the wicked.


You simply re-posted the fact that Paul agrees with Jesus in 2 Thess 1:9 that the body and soul will be destroyed in Hell. No resurrection from that destruction. It last eternally. I agree.


Then you mention Matthew 25:41 which is odd because it provides much support for the foundational passages that I’ve mentioned and against your idea. That is, if you think about what it’s message is fully:


Matthew 25:41 (LEB)

Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!


Fish are made to swim in the ocean, men are not. Throw a man in the middle of the ocean and he will not survive long. If Hell has been prepared for the devil and his angels (as it demonstrates in John’s vision that it is) then how can resurrected men survive there for very long? Notice that this would have been a great place for Jesus to clarify that Hell was also prepared not just for the Devil and his angels but for the wicked. He does NOT say that. He specifically says that the wicked "Depart" from the only source of eternal life (which in and of itself means death) and not only that but they go somewhere that's not even prepared for them. It's like casting a milestone around the neck of a man and throwing him in the Sea. He's not going to last long in a place that's not meant for him to live. You know, the place of the 2nd Death.


And He certainly doesn’t say anything about the spirits of wicked men here. Which means it’s really not that foundational to your doctrine of men’s spirit’s in Hell, no is it.


In summary, your foundational verses are none existent for your doctrine.

You simply re-posted the fact that Paul agrees with Jesus in 2 Thess 1:9 that the body and soul will be destroyed in Hell. No resurrection from that destruction. It last eternally. I agree.

How long does the destroying process last?

It is everlasting!


JLB

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward,

Can you tell me what passage you're referencing so i can get the context?

Sure Butch. We're told this in several places in scripture. Here's a couple for you.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live./

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Actually, it just all of Romans 8 brother!

 

[agua.]

Sure Butch. We're told this in several places in scripture. Here's a couple for you.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live./

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Actually, it just all of Romans 8 brother!

Ed the Spirit in this particular instance is the Holy Spirit. If we walk inline with the Holy Spirit we are not condemned.

Rom 8:14 KJV For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[agua.]

I don't base any of my beliefs on one controversial scripture ever.

And no I don't allow for the demon interpretation at this point. I considered it and the posts of others that do believe it and I believe that it is flawed.
I brought this up because so many believe that the Abraham/thirsty rich man story is a parable and this one is obviously not a parable. Just something to consider.
This is the last thing that Samuel says to Saul...

1Sa 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

This is the only part of what Samuel said that cannot be verified in scripture as actually happening.
But if the rest of the prophecy was fulfilled I think it would be presumptuous to think that this part of the prophecy was not fulfilled. Would you agree?
Now what do we know about Saul's sons especially Jonathan? We know Jonathan was King David's protector when Saul wanted to kill him. We know Jonathan was lead by God, he was a Godly man.

Are demons the spirits of dead people? No
Was the prophecy fulfilled? Yes
So was the Godly man Jonathan with demons after he died? No
So can we say with at least some confidence that Jonathan was with Samuel after he died? I believe we can and I do.

Deb I think some of your suppositions concerning this event lead to problems. I know the usual explanation Immortal souler's give but I'd like to hear yours if that's ok.

Firstly I agree that Jonathon likely will enter the Kingdom but remember Saul, Abinadab and Malchishua also went to where Samuel was/is. Where is this ? Recall what David said about his dead son and where David was even after Jesus ascended.

 

[agua.]

Here are a few points I'd like to keep in the forefront. In Gen.2:7 It says that God formed man out of the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath of lives and man became a living being. The imagery is of God breathing into man something from Himself. The image is something coming out of God and going into man. This exchange cause a change in the lifeless body that He had formed, it transformed from a lifeless body to a living soul. Here is Websters definition of become.

Become
: to begin to be or come to be something specified : to begin to have a specified quality

: to look attractive on (someone) : to be flattering to (someone)

: to be suitable for (someone) : to be proper for (someone)

To begin to be. According to this Adam didn't exist before the breath of lives was breathed into him. According to Scripture these two components are what Adam was made of. We don't find anything being added to Adam after this point. From this I have to conclude that either Adam consisted of only those two parts or he was incomplete when God made him. They are the only two conclusions I see, (If anyone can show something addition please do), therefore. I don't see how we can claim anything more without it simply being speculation and not fact.

Butch I think there's some confusion because we don't really know what our thoughts/mind is and how it fits with our being. I can understand why people think it's our spirit because in essence our mind is what makes us individuals imo. Can you give me a description of how our "essence" ( what we are thoughts/mind etc ) fits with God's spirit/breath ? I mean when we die the spirit returns to God right so how does our thoughts/mind return to God along with His spirit; or does it ?

 

[agua.]

JLB said: ↑
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16

Do you believe that you had a "living body" before you were "saved"?

What changed then after you were saved, IOW, what did the Holy Spirit bear witness to that you are saved?

If you were already a living body before you were saved, what are you now?

Hmm JLB. Yes we all are living so long as we aren't dead. When we become saved The Holy Spirit regenerates us ie. bears witness with our spirit/life. Notice that the Holy spirit regenerates us ie. renews/fixes God's spirit in us imo. So now I have God's spirit in me being renewed/fixed. Remember salvation is God's work entirely in us.

Because it is an unknown tongue that I have never learned. My mind is unfruitful.

It is the tongue of men and angels.

JLB​

​

Sure JLB but you don't understand this language because it isn't yours right ?




I've dragged this conversation piece over from the CI thread for consideration. Hope you don't mind Butch but it seems to be more relative here. I've been having some very interesting thoughts on this subject recently and it goes to the heart of our being and how, and why, we can be regenerated/saved and that this action is entirely Yahweh's work in us.

What does regenerated mean in this context and what is regenerated when we repent and turn to Yahweh ?[/quote]

 

[JLB]

Hmm JLB. Yes we all are living so long as we aren't dead. When we become saved The Holy Spirit regenerates us ie. bears witness with our spirit/life. Notice that the Holy spirit regenerates us ie. renews/fixes God's spirit in us imo. So now I have God's spirit in me being renewed/fixed. Remember salvation is God's work entirely in us.

​

Sure JLB but you don't understand this language because it isn't yours right ?




I've dragged this conversation piece over from the CI thread for consideration. Hope you don't mind Butch but it seems to be more relative here. I've been having some very interesting thoughts on this subject recently and it goes to the heart of our being and how, and why, we can be regenerated/saved and that this action is entirely Yahweh's work in us.

What does regenerated mean in this context and what is regenerated when we repent and turn to Yahweh ?

[/quote]

The inner man is what is regenerated.

14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, Ephesians 3:16

To me the heart is associated with the spirit more so than the soul of man.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart-- These, O God, You will not despise. Psalm 51:17

A merry heart does good, like medicine, But a broken spirit dries the bones. Proverbs 17:22

A merry heart maketh a cheerful countenance: but by sorrow of the heart the spirit is broken. Proverbs 15:13


For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12


JLB

 

[jeff77]

Wow, what a thoroughly (confusing) and interesting thread. I know little about the reality of this question so could only offer mere opinion, which I will, but then shall follow this thread with much interest.

Personal (opinion only), I believe that we have three aspects to our existance. Body, soul, and spirit. I do not hink that soul is a combination term for Body + spirit = living soul. What I do (think) is that we have a body, formed of the dust of the ground. We have the Spirit of life (breath of God if you will, belongs to God, returns to God), and soul. This is "us" which is our spiritual, being, individual personality, and identity. We have a body to reside in, have received Gods breath/spirit which animates us and brings us to life. Like a child when he is born, his mind and personality and character, who he "is" is a blank tablet at that time.

While we reside in our body, and have the energy of life (God's Spirit/life force etc.,) allows us to live, learn, have experiences and become someone, some "one". What we do with it is up to us. We are essentially creating our own person, identity, good, evil, whatever. If we turn to God our soul will become a good man as God wills. If we turn to the world and learn it's ways and live by them, we turn to be a bad man, and will be punished by death.

If there be only two aspects of ourselves, body and spirit of God, then I don't understand how if we are to reject God and go to eternal hell, then...what would this be? Would this be God punishing his own spirit? Separating a portion of Himself from Himself for eternity? This does not compute to me, but what do I know?

If we go to heaven, then god is rewarding Himself? Then who are we? Our body will dissolve, God's Spirit will return to Himself, so where's Butch? Where's Edward?

There's your soul, brothers and sisters. We are spiritual beings, instructed to live for the spirit. To learn and grow and seek God. Does Satan want a piece of God for himself? He can not have that. He wants your soul, your being, you...to not go to God. If upon death, your body returns to the ground, Gods Spirit returns to Him, what will be left to occupy hell?

Fear not those who can destroy the body, but fear He who can destroy both body and soul? Huh. Will God destroy a part of Himself? It is your soul (you) which will be saved or perish. Your body will return to the ground. Your Spirit will return unto God. Your soul is up for grabs. Can we save (a portion of) God, by turning to Him? No. can God save our soul? A resounding YES brothers and sisters. I have no scriptures to share on this, to "proof it" in any way. But to me, there must be three aspects of us. Body, soul, spirit. We are spiritual beings, created in Gods image. God is a trinity. This makes sense to me.

I agree with you Edward. I thought God gave us something, whether it be called a spirit or soul or breath of life Im not sure. What we choose to do with it is ours and as Christians we choose to turn our spirit or soul over to the Lord and become followers. Here is scripture to support this: Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. KJV.

 

[jeff77]

Luke 10:27 seems to indicate that the soul is ours and it is different than the mind.