Born Again Of The Holy Spirit

[JohnDB]

Very well. You can't miss the point I was making when you won't even look.

It's not about entering vx seeing. I seen your post but it's not really relevant to the discussion at hand.
Nicodemus was already a believer in Jesus... Nicodemus doubted himself.

 

[ezra]

sure proud we got the Bible straightened especially the translators

 

[JLB]

It's not a salvation issue. I'm merely sharing a different opinion than what is common. I'm not saying that I'm right and you are wrong...that's not part of this discussion. I'm trying to share a different understanding of this scripture that answers the question of the footnote in every modern Bible. Do with the information as you wish but I'm not going to change.
I believed as you do for years till someone shared with me this as I have shared with you. I tested the information and came to my own belief. All I'm going to do is suggest that you do the same.

Being born again, Spiritual birth, is not a salvation issue?

I disagree.


I still don’t understand what it is that you don’t agree with, in the scriptures that speak about this.


Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


again


Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:3-7


I believe that being born again is a spiritual birth, in which we are born of the Spirit;
Born of God.


Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1


Being born of the Spirit, born of God, is a supernatural birth.



What do you disagree with, about this ?



JLB

 

[Randy]

I'm from the group that believes that the expression "born again" is a mis-translation by (either Tyndale or Wycliffe) perpetuated over the centuries by various people... especially Billy Graham (who didn't know) especially in the 1960's.

But at the same time scholars fixed the error and put it in the foot notes of the newly translated Bibles.

"Born from above" is a classification of people who God created to perform a task for Him. Nicodemus certainly fit that description. Nicodemus didn't feel special...he felt like he was ordinary. He felt like he needed a complete life "do over" in order to be "born from above". He could never live up to the class Jesus said he belonged to.... which is an example of true humility. (Uncommon then and today)

Nicodemus was interested in becoming Jesus' friend which is why he came at night after the day was over...(social time in Israel)

Nicodemus's question does not follow born from above.
Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

 

[JohnDB]

God is omniscient.
God is omnipresent.
God is in time and beyond time.
God is omnipotent.(also included in this is perfect efficiency)

You cannot throw God a surprise party and expect Him to be surprised.

IOW God knew all about you (and the number of hairs on your head on any given day) thousands of years before you were born. God already had tasks assigned to you on His behalf even back in time when Jacob was having his "stairway to heaven" dream.

One day (earth time) we will depart earth and enter Heaven where we will meet God "face to face"...in order to be face to face with God in Heaven we must be as timeless as God.... your "Spiritual birth" existed before God said "Let there be light"
A very radical difference than those doomed to destruction.

So logic dictates that your physical birth was your second birth...and your glorified body was your first.

 

[ezra]

So logic dictates that your physical birth was your second birth...and your glorified body was your first.

not so sure as i can go along with this for there to be a spiritual birth we must be naturally birthed .. this whole thing in becoming a mess improper translation here is the problem with that ..none of us was there when the men translated it born again born from above does it really matter ? the Holy Spirit regenerates us the spirit quickens so this should settle it ..but it wont

 

[for_his_glory]

That "born again" is a viable theological princple. It's only mentioned in this one place.
"Born from above" however is much more congruent with other sections of scripture in the Old Testament and Paul's dissertation to the Romans.

That being said I have personally witnessed people truly repenting of their poor relationship with God and going the opposite way of what they once did. They do seem to change and sometimes drastically. I understand that this is what people refer to as being "born again" but to me, it seems more of them having firmly made a choice and never looking back.
The "born again" crowd makes it seem supernatural in effect or as a needed affect to become a Christian. God doesn't need a flash-bang and smoke to perform miracles...He has used them for signs and wonders but they simply aren't common...or else they wouldn't be effective as a sign or wonder.

Some people do make a show of being born again as you call it a flash-bang and smoke performance, but that is not how Jesus explained it to Nicodemus. Being born again is a renewal through the Holy Spirit that begins our Spiritual personal relationship with Christ as we begin to learn about Him and what that relationship is all about. It's our gateway to enter the kingdom of God. It's God's grace wiping clean our slate and in a sense giving us a do over like that of being born as a baby (that which is born of the flesh) now born of His Spirit (born of the Spirit is spirit) as being in Christ and He in us.

Galatians 6:11 Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand. 12 As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[for_his_glory]

the Jews then and today based on the idea of peshac teach that Isreal was REBORN in that event, they were in bondage and came alive when Moses set them free. the idea of out of Egypt have I called my firstborn or son depending the passage is from and about that event as well as prophetic. its a precursor. we were in bondage, blood was shed to set us free as was the case with isreal in that time. the blood of the firstborn of every man was spared if they took a lamb and offered its blood upon the door lentels and ate the parts as told. we cant ignore that the idea was there.

It's been the same from the time in Genesis 3:21 where God used a blood sacrifice that covered the nakedness of Adam and Eve.

 

[JohnDB]

not so sure as i can go along with this for there to be a spiritual birth we must be naturally birthed .. this whole thing in becoming a mess improper translation here is the problem with that ..none of us was there when the men translated it born again born from above does it really matter ? the Holy Spirit regenerates us the spirit quickens so this should settle it ..but it wont

Of course we were created by God.
Created to be in fellowship with Him...it's the most natural state we can exist in.

But whether you believe the notion of "born again" or you believe "born from above" in this section of scripture is not a determining factor in a person's salvation. It's a tidbit I discovered from word studies and anthropology studies and thought that I would share it. I have no fantasies that people will take my word for what I have discovered. I do entertain fantasies that people might look and research what I am talking about for themselves...and come to their own conclusions. People make mistakes...part of the human condition. Even Patriarchs make mistakes and they become perpetuated by those who stand on their shoulders.

 

[for_his_glory]

Because I have explained a few times now that the conversation that Nicodemus had with Jesus is nothing like what JLB or for_his_glory have explained (which is the common explanation of that event)

So...one more time:
Nicodemus came to Jesus as a social call (because that was when friends called upon each other) and to make friends with Jesus. (He was seen by everyone else out doing the same thing... daytime is hot but Jews worked during the day and used nights for social calls and Nicodemus already believed in Jesus)
Jesus told Nicodemus that he was of the same group of men as the Patriarchs. Nicodemus claimed he was never special and would have to have a complete life "do-over" from birth to be what Jesus was claiming.
Jesus then explained that the Holy Spirit would guide him and it would seem ordinary but the effect would be extraordinary.

Now the reason for the mentioning of "birth" by Nicodemus is that those Patriarchs who were "Born from Above" usually were announced to Israel by prophets before they were born. Sometimes even their names were proscribed by the prophets or angels. (John the Baptist) But they all had tasks that they were to do on behalf of God and Israel.

I DO NOT believe that Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he needed to "get saved" by being "born again"... which is what most people believe.

My concept of the conversation is vastly different than what is commonly believed and speaks to many theological topics of debate as is what John's Gospel normally does.

That's it as this is only your own concept without any foundation other then what you believe as logical to your own mind.

Nicodemus, just as the rest of the Pharisees and even the 12 disciples only knew Jesus as a Rabbi/teacher sent from God. It wouldn't be until Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down that they would then know Jesus as Messiah.

The Jews, especially the Pharisees, were looking for a Messiah who would come in Priestly attire that would literally sit on the throne of David and save them from the ruling powers of Rome that governed them. Nicodemus who was well known and keeper of the law and also spoke out against Jesus as the other Pharisees did came to Jesus at night as to not be seen as he came to question Jesus. Nicodemus knew there was something different about this Rabbi/teacher for the things He spoke and the miracles He did. Nicodemus, unlike the other Pharisees, knew Jesus had to be sent from God and wanted to know more about Him. Jesus already knew what Nicodemus was going to say and basically cut him off and began to teach him about the kingdom of God and how to enter into this kingdom by being Spiritually born again as the new birth only comes by God. I already explained that so need not repeat myself.

 

[JohnDB]

That's it as this is only your own concept without any foundation other then what you believe as logical to your own mind.

If only this was true....

 

[jasonc]

If only this was true....

I see your point,to be born from above involves a transformation only possible by God,semantic error to say again but not a salvation issue if you teach one must repent to be saved.

 

[for_his_glory]

Like I said before...born again is a mis-translation done by either Wycliffe or Tyndall and I can't remember which one it was...and that mis translation has been perpetuated through the years. In the early 50's or 60's it was set straight with a footnote but the KJV was still popular then.

It's similar to the notion that Jesus was a carpenter's son so he became a carpenter. "Tekon" is general construction worker...not a carpenter and everything there was made out of rock.

1611 KJV of the Holy Bible- John 3:3 "Iesus answered, Uerily, verily I say vnto thee, except a man be borne againe, he cannot see the kingdome of God.

1946 - 1959 KJV of the Holy Bible Revised Standard Version - Nelson - John 3:3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The wording born again or born anew or whatever it says in other versions it all means a Spiritual renewal between your spirit and the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) as we are made righteous again by His righteousness and the indwelling Holy Spirit leads us into all truths, John 14:26. Nicodemus asked a question in vs. 4 after Jesus told him how to see the kingdom of God in vs. 3 and Jesus answered his question in vs. 5-12.

 

[for_his_glory]

If only this was true....

We can only take what you say as being your own concept as you have never given us any proof of what you are claiming.
No matter how it reads it still means being Spiritually renewed from above as it's by God's grace through faith that is Christ Jesus to all who will believe He is the Son of God that will have life eternal with Him. It's all about Jesus, God and our fellowship/relationship with them as it all comes by the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truths.

 

[for_his_glory]

I see your point,to be born from above involves a transformation only possible by God,semantic error to say again but not a salvation issue if you teach one must repent to be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are not saved through repenting or even water baptism as it is by God's grace that we are saved by faith as we believe faith is Christ Jesus being the Son of God that through faith we have eternal life with the Father. Repenting and water baptism would be a work towards salvation and this is not what scripture says. Repenting and water baptism accompany true salvation as it is a part of the saving grace come from God, 2 Corinthians 7:10. Repentance is sorrow or regret of turning away from God.

There are actually two births happening. One being the natural and one being the Spiritual as all are created in the image of God, but have fallen short of His glory as they have lost fellowship with Him denying God and His Son Christ Jesus.

 

[JohnDB]

We can only take what you say as being your own concept as you have never given us any proof of what you are claiming.
No matter how it reads it still means being Spiritually renewed from above as it's by God's grace through faith that is Christ Jesus to all who will believe He is the Son of God that will have life eternal with Him. It's all about Jesus, God and our fellowship/relationship with them as it all comes by the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truths.

I have given you the basic info.
I believe that you are more than capable and able to research what "Born From Above" meant as a classification of the Patriarchs to the Jews of Jesus' day.

Might even be able to Google it...who knows? Stranger things have happened.

 

[jasonc]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are not saved through repenting or even water baptism as it is by God's grace that we are saved by faith as we believe faith is Christ Jesus being the Son of God that through faith we have eternal life with the Father. Repenting and water baptism would be a work towards salvation and this is not what scripture says. Repenting and water baptism accompany true salvation as it is a part of the saving grace come from God, 2 Corinthians 7:10. Repentance is sorrow or regret of turning away from God.

There are actually two births happening. One being the natural and one being the Spiritual as all are created in the image of God, but have fallen short of His glory as they have lost fellowship with Him denying God and His Son Christ Jesus.

 

[jasonc]

I guess I just needed to say I believe ,don
T change ,just keep sinning like I did before.

The greek knowledge of John dB isn't lost as most older protesrant churches,the anglican,Lutheran and others don't teach ye must be born again.

Anglican,the church that gave us the kjv.they penned it used it .Lutherans,these used the tyndale ,and later on the kjv.irc these the tyndale bible is the basis of the kjv,

 

[jasonc]

This is really a silly argument ,the above . wisdom from God in comparison above the wisdom of men.

If I'm rebirthed from God,I am born from above,read what john says not what you assume! He never said ,it's works, it's not required for you to believe and repent .

 

[jasonc]

https://faithalone.org/blog/born-from-above/