Born Again Of The Holy Spirit

[JLB]

The "born again" crowd makes it seem supernatural in effect or as a needed affect to become a Christian.

If it’s not supernatural then there is no new birth.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:6

• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

JLB

 

[tdidymas]

That "born again" is a viable theological princple. It's only mentioned in this one place.
"Born from above" however is much more congruent with other sections of scripture in the Old Testament and Paul's dissertation to the Romans.

That being said I have personally witnessed people truly repenting of their poor relationship with God and going the opposite way of what they once did. They do seem to change and sometimes drastically. I understand that this is what people refer to as being "born again" but to me, it seems more of them having firmly made a choice and never looking back.
The "born again" crowd makes it seem supernatural in effect or as a needed affect to become a Christian. God doesn't need a flash-bang and smoke to perform miracles...He has used them for signs and wonders but they simply aren't common...or else they wouldn't be effective as a sign or wonder.

So you're saying you object to the term "born again" because some people are using the figuratively to describe a natural decision making process? Am I reading you correctly?
TD

 

[JohnDB]

So you're saying you object to the term "born again" because some people are using the figuratively to describe a natural decision making process? Am I reading you correctly?
TD

Nope...not even close.

If it’s not supernatural then there is no new birth.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:6

• that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

JLB

Yes...of course. But that doesn't mean that it's really supernatural. We were created to worship and be in fellowship with our Creator... restoring this fellowship may seem supernatural but it's really what we are created to do....

And "born from above" is "born of the Spirit".... something God knew about you hundreds of thousands of years before you were born.

 

[tdidymas]

Nope...not even close.

This is what you said:

I understand that this is what people refer to as being "born again" but to me, it seems more of them having firmly made a choice and never looking back.
The "born again" crowd makes it seem supernatural in effect or as a needed affect to become a Christian.

It sure looks to me like you are objecting to the term because people are using it as meaning a decision.

Can you please explain why you said that?
TD

 

[jasonc]

All those patriarchs including Nicodemus before the time of Jesus ministry would not know anything about being born again, but only that of what was written by Ezekiel in Ezekiel 36:25-27. Nicodemus, being a ruler of the Jews, was a member of the Sanhedrin being the legislative body of Israel and an expert of the law. He came to Jesus in secret of the night to talk with Him so he would not be caught by the other Pharisees. The question on his mind was if Jesus was going to deliver the Jews from the bondage of Rome's authority over the Jews. Jesus already knew what Nicodemus was going to ask Him and avoided his question and went on to explain that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jesus was trying to teach Him about the kingdom of God and how to enter this kingdom that is from above. This is where we are set free from all bondage here on earth.

the Jews then and today based on the idea of peshac teach that Isreal was REBORN in that event, they were in bondage and came alive when Moses set them free. the idea of out of Egypt have I called my firstborn or son depending the passage is from and about that event as well as prophetic. its a precursor. we were in bondage, blood was shed to set us free as was the case with isreal in that time. the blood of the firstborn of every man was spared if they took a lamb and offered its blood upon the door lentels and ate the parts as told. we cant ignore that the idea was there.

 

[ezra]

born from above is fine but the spirit gives us life quickens so born of the spirit as it is a spiritual birth

 

[ezra]

the Jews then and today based on the idea of peshac teach that Isreal was REBORN in that event, they were in bondage and came alive when Moses set them free. the idea of out of Egypt have I called my firstborn or son depending the passage is from and about that event as well as prophetic. its a precursor. we were in bondage, blood was shed to set us free as was the case with isreal in that time. the blood of the firstborn of every man was spared if they took a lamb and offered its blood upon the door lentels and ate the parts as told. we cant ignore that the idea was there.

all that was symbolic prelude for Christ to come thus they are still in bondage unless converted

 

[jasonc]

all that was symbolic prelude for Christ to come thus they are still in bondage unless converted

which means that the idea of being born again was there, as stovebolts said, the torah points so openly to Christ that one has to not know him to see it, thus blind. even the jews will say the torah points to the moshiac , all of it. they just deny Jesus is that one to their damnation

 

[ezra]

which means that the idea of being born again was there, as stovebolts said, the torah points so openly to Christ that one has to not know him to see it, thus blind. even the jews will say the torah points to the moshiac , all of it. they just deny Jesus is that one to their damnation

i never said the idea was not there every thing done was symbolic pointing to Christ types and shadows

 

[JohnDB]

This is what you said:

It sure looks to me like you are objecting to the term because people are using it as meaning a decision.

Can you please explain why you said that?
TD

Because I have explained a few times now that the conversation that Nicodemus had with Jesus is nothing like what JLB or for_his_glory have explained (which is the common explanation of that event)

So...one more time:
Nicodemus came to Jesus as a social call (because that was when friends called upon each other) and to make friends with Jesus. (He was seen by everyone else out doing the same thing... daytime is hot but Jews worked during the day and used nights for social calls and Nicodemus already believed in Jesus)
Jesus told Nicodemus that he was of the same group of men as the Patriarchs. Nicodemus claimed he was never special and would have to have a complete life "do-over" from birth to be what Jesus was claiming.
Jesus then explained that the Holy Spirit would guide him and it would seem ordinary but the effect would be extraordinary.

Now the reason for the mentioning of "birth" by Nicodemus is that those Patriarchs who were "Born from Above" usually were announced to Israel by prophets before they were born. Sometimes even their names were proscribed by the prophets or angels. (John the Baptist) But they all had tasks that they were to do on behalf of God and Israel.

I DO NOT believe that Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he needed to "get saved" by being "born again"... which is what most people believe.

My concept of the conversation is vastly different than what is commonly believed and speaks to many theological topics of debate as is what John's Gospel normally does.

 

[JLB]

Nope...not even close.


Yes...of course. But that doesn't mean that it's really supernatural. We were created to worship and be in fellowship with our Creator... restoring this fellowship may seem supernatural but it's really what we are created to do....

And "born from above" is "born of the Spirit".... something God knew about you hundreds of thousands of years before you were born.

If we are born of the Spirit then that is a super natural act.

Beyond natural birth.

• departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature.

Spiritual birth, as opposed to natural birth.


Restoring fellowship with God, God knowing this in advance, does not somehow take away from it being a super natural birth.



JLB

 

[ezrider]

Because I have explained a few times now that the conversation that Nicodemus had with Jesus is nothing like what @JLB or @for_his_glory have explained (which is the common explanation of that event)

I DO NOT believe that Jesus was telling Nicodemus that he needed to "get saved" by being "born again"... which is what most people believe.

My concept of the conversation is vastly different than what is commonly believed and speaks to many theological topics of debate as is what John's Gospel normally does.

Perhaps the confusion comes in the difference between "entering" into the kingdom and actually "seeing" the kingdom. Many indeed have been save and have entered into the kingdom, yet they remain blinded to it. The conversation with Nicodemus and being "Born Again" or in other words born of the Spirit had to do with being able to SEE the kingdom of Heaven. If one is truly born from above of the Spirit, then wouldn't they be proclaiming what they see of that kingdom rather than what they see in the kingdoms of this world?

If their eyes are open to sin, then how should they be able to see the Righteousness of the Lord?

 

[JohnDB]

Perhaps the confusion comes in the difference between "entering" into the kingdom and actually "seeing" the kingdom. Many indeed have been save and have entered into the kingdom, yet they remain blinded to it. The conversation with Nicodemus and being "Born Again" or in other words born of the Spirit had to do with being able to SEE the kingdom of Heaven. If one is truly born from above of the Spirit, then wouldn't they be proclaiming what they see of that kingdom rather than what they see in the kingdoms of this world?

If their eyes are open to sin, then how should they be able to see the Righteousness of the Lord?

Like I said before...born again is a mis-translation done by either Wycliffe or Tyndall and I can't remember which one it was...and that mis translation has been perpetuated through the years. In the early 50's or 60's it was set straight with a footnote but the KJV was still popular then.

It's similar to the notion that Jesus was a carpenter's son so he became a carpenter. "Tekon" is general construction worker...not a carpenter and everything there was made out of rock.

 

[ezrider]

Like I said before...born again is a mis-translation done by either Wycliffe or Tyndall and I can't remember which one it was...and that mis translation has been perpetuated through the years. In the early 50's or 60's it was set straight with a footnote but the KJV was still popular then.

It's similar to the notion that Jesus was a carpenter's son so he became a carpenter. "Tekon" is general construction worker...not a carpenter and everything there was made out of rock.

Did you miss the point I was making between seeing and entering? I really could care less how it was translated.

 

[JohnDB]

If we are born of the Spirit then that is a super natural act.

Beyond natural birth.

• departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature.

Spiritual birth, as opposed to natural birth.


Restoring fellowship with God, God knowing this in advance, does not somehow take away from it being a super natural birth.



JLB

It's not a salvation issue. I'm merely sharing a different opinion than what is common. I'm not saying that I'm right and you are wrong...that's not part of this discussion. I'm trying to share a different understanding of this scripture that answers the question of the footnote in every modern Bible. Do with the information as you wish but I'm not going to change.
I believed as you do for years till someone shared with me this as I have shared with you. I tested the information and came to my own belief. All I'm going to do is suggest that you do the same.

 

[JohnDB]

Did you miss the point I was making between seeing and entering? I really could care less how it was translated.

No...but you're missing the whole point. The conversation wasn't about salvation is what I was saying and others are saying that it is.

 

[ezra]

Like I said before...born again is a mis-translation done by either Wycliffe or Tyndall

just how do you know this???? have you read the original

 

[ezra]

born again a new start a new creation lets pick a part the word of God

 

[ezrider]

No...but you're missing the whole point. The conversation wasn't about salvation is what I was saying and others are saying that it is.

Very well. You can't miss the point I was making when you won't even look.

 

[JohnDB]

just how do you know this???? have you read the original

"Genethe anothen" are the Greek words used. "Anothen" means "from above" every other time used in other writings and scripture except for this one spot. It's the only place it is translated as "again"....it's an obvious mistake but people don't want to accept it. Just like the Jewish Carpenter myth.