Born Again Of The Holy Spirit

[for_his_glory]

So you would agree that an angel is a heavenly thing (John 3:12) created by God as spiritual beings (John 3:8).

No, I am not in agreement with what you think John 3:8, 12 means. An angel is a heavenly being, being fully spirit without form and not of flesh, blood or gender as I already gave the scriptures about what angels are. There is no correlation or even mention of angels in either of those two verses. Can the carnal mind perceive that of the Spirit, no, because the carnal is enmity (enmity means a hostile enemy) against the Spirit that the two can never mix together, Romans 8:5-9. Therefore the need of what Jesus said in John 3:5-7 about the Spiritual rebirth of the carnal man in order to understand the Spiritual things from above where Christ sits at the right hand of God.

John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[Walpole]

From the definition of the term:

In Latin, non sequitur means "it does not follow." The phrase was borrowed into English in the 1500s by people who made a formal study of logic. For them it meant a conclusion that does not follow from the statements that lead to it.​

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non sequitur​

​

​

I made no conclusion statement, therefore my statement is not non-sequitur. (Third and last time I’ll point this out to you)

Next time you may want to actually read the definition in your link. Per your source:

Non-sequitur:
2. a statement (such as a response) that does not follow logically from OR is not clearly related to anything previously said
Example: We were talking about the new restaurant when she threw in some non sequitur about her dog.

(https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non sequitur)

Once again, since nowhere was the necessity of angels to be born again discussed, your introduction of angels needing to be born again does not align with any previous discussion in the thread and is thus a non-sequitur. (Fourth or fifth time I've pointed this out and I'm happy to continue pointing it out if you keep posting non-sequiturs.)

I didn’t say He was addressing angels. However, as pointed out previously He most certainly was talking to Nicodemus about spiritual, “heavenly things”, throughout the discussion:

Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You all must be born _____’— the wind [(https://biblehub.com/greek/pneuma_4151.htm). blows where it wants, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know from where it comes, and where it is going. So is everyone having been born of the Spirit”. ... If I told you people earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things [https://biblehub.com/greek/2032.htm]?​

John 3:7-8,12 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:7-8,12&version=DLNT

The word translated “Heavenly things” refers to angels over a dozen times in the NT. Look it up. And the word for “wind” in v 7 is literally the same word translated spirit.

Can you post one single reference of the dozen you claim exist in the NT where "heavenly things" (ἐπουράνιος) refers to an actual angel?

 

[Walpole]

No sir.

Water is natural birth.

Spirit is spiritual birth.



JLB

Can you provide one single instance in the Scriptures or anywhere in antiquity where water is synonymous with natural birth? How about anywhere in modernity where water is synonymous with being born? For example, if I asked someone when were they watered, would they know I was asking when they were born?

Jesus tells Nicodemus that man must be born of water. The Greek word for "of" is ἐκ, which means "from; of; an origin of something." Man is not birthed from water, but rather from a mother; that is, a person. Man is not born from water; as water is not the origin of man's natural birth. Scripture NEVER refers to it as such. (e.g. Mt 1:1-11)

 

[chessman]

Next time you may want to actually read the definition in your link.

I had read it, contrary to your assumption.
And it supports what I’ve said.

that does not follow logically

Like I said, I made no logical argument in my post.

OR is not clearly related to anything previously said

Just because you don’t see the relationship doesn’t mean it’s not clear.

your introduction of angels needing to be born again does not align with any previous discussion in the thread

It’s not my introduction, it’s part of Jesus’s discourse with Nicodemus (the topic of the thread).

Can you post one single reference of the dozen you claim exist in the NT where "heavenly things" (ἐπουράνιος) refers to an actual angel?

Yes.

in-order-that every knee should bow at the name of Jesus— of heavenly ones and earthly ones and ones under-the-earth—​

Philippians 2:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Philippians 2:10&version=DLNT

οἱ ἐπουράνιοι the heavenly beings, the inhabitants of heaven​

​

Not all flesh is the same flesh. But there is one of humans, and another flesh of livestock, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is one kind, and the glory of the earthly is different.​

1 Corinthians 15:39-40 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:39-40&version=DLNT

​

​

and of the angels, 1 Corinthians 15:40;​

​

https://biblehub.com/greek/2032.htm​

 

[for_his_glory]

IOW

Angels are already sons of God.

JLB

Yes they are. That which is flesh is flesh from the earth and that which is Spirit is spirit in the heavenly.

 

[ezra]

That would be my story. At 12 I ran away and lived on the streets doing what I had to do to survive which put me in Juvenile, then institutions. At 17 I was living on the streets of Hollywood peddling dope and whatever else to make a buck for a room and a meal a day. I spent many nights on the street and many day hungry. One does what he needs to do to survive.

Currently, I have a brother in Prison, another on Parole and another dead from choice of lifestyle.

What makes me different? Why did my life come out so radically different than theirs? ( I have a really, really good job with the best wife and an abundance of material items). I can only give God the credit and my testimony bears witness to Gods grace, as well as His love.

Does this mean I'm born from above? Perhaps, but it is not mine to boast, but rather its Gods to share and I'm thankful for his presence in my life.

this means you been changed and from that point on you made the choice to do right and God blessed you .
i must say i like your testimony .. born from above born again i will continue to use born again ..if someone else feels the urge to try to be theologically correct .so be it the fact is God saved you from the pit and out of the miry clay placed your feet up on the rock and established your goings
Psalms 40:2
that is exactly what happened i never did the street life mainly due the fact i was raised in a small town population 300 or so . every place around me was back roads creeks . gravel roads that would take you to the boonies where the river was at . i smoked the weed tried some of the other drugs meth few times tried acid a couple times... i loved my weed .then it all came to a crashing halt .when i decided to hook up and grow on federal land . 2 years probation $500.00 fine 2 years later the same Grace that saved you....... saved me 5 years after that called to the ministry to preach.. your life style and mine was different but God made a change in both of us .for the record i have never been to Hollywood..i kind of like my simple way of life

 

[chessman]

they were created by God

An angel is a heavenly being

So you now would not agree that an angel is a heavenly thing created by God as spiritual beings?

BTW:

The same word Jesus used for “a spirit” in Luke 24:37-39 and Heb 1:14 that you tagged below, Jesus also used to answer Nicodemus in John 3. (Which I tagged like you do)

Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).

Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14)

 

[Walpole]

I had read it, contrary to your assumption.
And it supports what I’ve said.

Like I said, I made no logical argument in my post.

Read it again...

Non-sequitur:
2. a statement (such as a response) that does not follow logically from OR is not clearly related to anything previously said
Example: We were talking about the new restaurant when she threw in some non sequitur about her dog.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non sequitur

(Your post could also serve as an example.)

Just because you don’t see the relationship doesn’t mean it’s not clear.

I don't see the relationship because there is no relationship. Jesus' instruction to Nicodemus on being born again is about MAN, not angels...

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

It’s not my introduction, it’s part of Jesus’s discourse with Nicodemus (the topic of the thread).

Jesus never mentions angels in his discourse with Nicodemus.

Yes.

in-order-that every knee should bow at the name of Jesus— of heavenly ones and earthly ones and ones under-the-earth—​

Philippians 2:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Philippians 2:10&version=DLNT

οἱ ἐπουράνιοι the heavenly beings, the inhabitants of heaven​

​

Not all flesh is the same flesh. But there is one of humans, and another flesh of livestock, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is one kind, and the glory of the earthly is different.​

1 Corinthians 15:39-40 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:39-40&version=DLNT

​

​

and of the angels, 1 Corinthians 15:40;​

​

https://biblehub.com/greek/2032.htm​

The heavenly abode ≠ an actual angel

 

[JLB]

Can you provide one single instance in the Scriptures or anywhere in antiquity where water is synonymous with natural birth?

Yes.

Same John used this phrase to describe the supernatural virgin birth of Christ.


This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1 John 5:6

Every comes into this world by water.


Only Jesus came by both water and blood.



JLB

 

[chessman]

I don't see the relationship

Jesus’s criterion for entering the Kingdom of God confused Nicodemus too.

Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”​

John 3:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:9&version=NKJV

Jesus' instruction to Nicodemus on being born again is about MAN, not angels

Translators inserted “a man” into the actual Text, you quoted:

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

And translations have corrected the insertion in the new versions:

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”​

John 3:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:3&version=NKJV

Jesus never mentions angels in his discourse with Nicodemus.

Angels are non-flesh spirits, created by God:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

John 3:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:6&version=NKJV

The heavenly abode ≠ an actual angel

Of course. An abode is place of dwelling, not a being that’s born (whether born of flesh or born of the Spirit. Why bring up something off-topic?

 

[Walpole]

Yes.

Same John used this phrase to describe the supernatural virgin birth of Christ.


This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1 John 5:6

Every comes into this world by water.


Only Jesus came by both water and blood.



JLB

1 John 5:6 does not state Jesus was born of water and blood.

Please try again: Can you provide one single instance in the Scriptures or anywhere in antiquity where water is synonymous with natural birth? How about anywhere in modernity where water is synonymous with being born? For example, if I asked someone when were they watered, would they know I was asking when they were born?

 

[Walpole]

Jesus’s criterion for entering the Kingdom of God confused Nicodemus too.

Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”​

John 3:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:9&version=NKJV

Yes, of course it confused him, as it was a new teaching.

Translators inserted “a man” into the actual Text, you quoted:

And translations have corrected the insertion in the new versions:

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”​

John 3:3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:3&version=NKJV

The next verse should clear it up for you...

"Nicodemus saith unto him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?'" (John 3:4)

Man = ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos) ---> https://biblehub.com/greek/444.htm

Angels are non-flesh spirits, created by God:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.​

John 3:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 3:6&version=NKJV

And since angels are created spirits and not born, they cannot be born again.

Of course. An abode is place of dwelling, not a being that’s born (whether born of flesh or born of the Spirit. Why bring up something off-topic?

Because those verses are describing the heavens / heavenly abode / that which is celestial; not an angel. Recall you claimed "heavenly things” (ἐπουράνιος) refers to angels over a dozen times in the NT. The verses you referenced do not state that...

Phil 2:10 - those in heaven also includes the saints (cf. Rev 5:8) - thus it does not mean angels (not to mention angels don't have knees)
1 Cor 15:39-40 - speaks of celestial bodies, such as the sun and moon, as the Apostle explains in the very next verse, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory." (v. 41)

That eliminates three of the dozen verses you claim equate ἐπουράνιος with angels. This leaves you with nine left to post.

 

[Dispair]

There are actually three births.

1. Physical birth - no spiritual relevance.
2. Born of Eve (later called Babylon the Great) Gen 3:16
3. Born again - of the new Jerusalem; our Lord's bride. Rev 21:2

Born of Eve:
We are all born of Eve Gen 3:20. Eve sold herself and Adam to the Beast Genesis 3:1 and became Babylon the Great. This is also why our Lord required a virgin birth.

As we are advised in Re 18:4 we clean ourselves of our birth parents (Adam and Eve/Beast and Babylon the Great) and show our willingness to worship God in spirit and truth by water baptism. This water birth is symbolized multiple times in scripture e.g. Baptism, the Hebrews passing through the red sea, passing through the Jordan river into the promised land, flood of cleansing waters in Noah's day etc.

Born into the new Jerusalem: (Born again by spirit)
After water baptism we are guided by spirit and by following our Lord's example (putting away the flesh) we become children of the new Jerusalem. This is being born again and the baptism by spirit and fire. John the baptist's testimony about our Lord in John 3 is a nice read for this context. Especially verse 29 John 3:29

Finally notice the contrast: We are first born by the union of the Beast and the Whore (Babylon the Great) aka the serpent and Eve, then born again in spirit by the union of our Lord and the new Jerusalem his bride.

So the whole thing is actually not complicated:

Man starts in paradise (spiritually pure children of God) -> We choose the flesh and become subject to the law (Become children of the Beast and Babylon the Great and are evicted from paradise -> We symbolize our desire to return to God and paradise and become his children by water baptism -> We follow the example of our Lord and the spirits guidance and put away the flesh -> because we are spirit and not flesh the sword and cherubim guarding the entrance of the Garden of Eden Gen 3:24 can't prevent us from returning to paradise and the tree of life -> Thus the union of our Lord and the new Jerusalem (pure worship) produce born again children of God.

 

[chessman]

Yes, of course it confused him, as it was a new teaching.

Correct, yet you are following Nicodemus’ understanding: and suggesting I do too.

The next verse should clear it up for you...

"Nicodemus saith unto him ...

Like I said, the Text directly tells you Nicodemus was confused by what Jesus was telling him. Yet you’re basing your view of what can (and cannot) enter into God’s kingdom based off of Nicodemus’ statement??? That seems odd.

The verses you referenced do not state that...

I referenced a highly respected, scholarly, and published Greek Lexicon (Greek - English dictionary) that directly says it does often (but not always) refer to “angels” in these verses.

1 Cor 15:39-40 - speaks of celestial bodies, such as the sun and moon, as the Apostle explains in the very next verse

Just as the Apostle spoke of different bodies given to plant seeds, livestock, birds, fish and finally humans.

And God gives it a body just as He willed— indeed, to each of the seeds its own body. Not all flesh is the same flesh. But there is one of humans, and another flesh of livestock, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.​

1 Corinthians 15:38-39 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:38-39&version=DLNT

and I’ll repeat (just once this time and leave it to you to post against the dictionary as you have Webster’s) my evidence from a Greek-English dictionary:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon​

STRONGS NT 2032: ἐπουράνιος​

“the heavenly beings, the inhabitants of heaven, ... of angels ... and of the angels, 1 Corinthians 15:4”​

​

Phil 2:10 - those in heaven also includes the saints

Please quote and underline “saints” in Phil 2. That is, for support of your claim. While we wait for that evidence, here’s what a Lexicon actually has to say about the word:

i. e. in honor of one, Romans 14:11 (1 Kings 19:18); ἐν ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ, Philippians 2:10 (Isaiah 45:23).​

Heavenly angels honor the firstborn, Jesus!

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “And let all the angels of God worship him.”​

Hebrews 1:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 1:6&version=LEB

not to mention angels don't have knees

Have you ever seen an angel here on Earth? Lot did, and here’s what it says about them:

And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening. And Lot was sitting in the gateway of Sodom. Then Lot saw them and stood up to meet them. And he bowed down with his face to the ground. And he said, “Behold, my lords, please turn aside into the house of your servant and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you can rise early and go on your way.” And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the square.”​

Genesis 19:1-2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 19:1-2&version=LEB

Evidently they appear to have “feet” (dirty ones, which are connected to the shin bones, which are connected to the thigh bones, ... by the knees. If I remember my childrens song correctly.)

 

[JLB]

1 John 5:6 does not state Jesus was born of water and blood.

Please try again: Can you provide one single instance in the Scriptures or anywhere in antiquity where water is synonymous with natural birth? How about anywhere in modernity where water is synonymous with being born? For example, if I asked someone when were they watered, would they know I was asking when they were born?

Do you understand what the phrase means:

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood.


Because this same John uses this expression to denote that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin.

Came by water refers to natural birth.

Came by water and blood refers to supernatural virgin birth.


The context is clear is John 3:5-6, as Jesus defines what He means in 5, in the next verse

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh,
• and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6


Born of water - natural birth - earthly thing

Born of the Spirit - Spiritual birth - heavenly thing


Came by water - natural birth

Came by water and blood - virgin birth.


That is what these phrases refer to.

If you do understand or agree then so be it.



If a fallen angel hears the Gospel can they repent and return to God and be made spiritually alive again ; born again?



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

So you now would not agree that an angel is a heavenly thing created by God as spiritual beings?

BTW:

The same word Jesus used for “a spirit” in Luke 24:37-39 and Heb 1:14 that you tagged below, Jesus also used to answer Nicodemus in John 3. (Which I tagged like you do)

I never said they weren't if you would have read my post more clearly. I already explained all of this in post #101 and need not repeat myself any further on this matter.

 

[Walpole]

Correct, yet you are following Nicodemus’ understanding: and suggesting I do too.

Like I said, the Text directly tells you Nicodemus was confused by what Jesus was telling him. Yet you’re basing your view of what can (and cannot) enter into God’s kingdom based off of Nicodemus’ statement??? That seems odd.

Sorry, but Jesus explains to Nicodemus exactly what he means by being born again. Let’s look at the text and see it unfold…

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?”

Now Jesus describes to Nicodemus exactly how a man is born again…

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


We see that Jesus says two things are required for one to be born again: Water and the Spirit


Christians refer to this ritual whereby one is born again with water and the Spirit as baptism. St. John continues this narrative with Jesus and Nicodemus by stating “After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.” Furthermore, it is no coincidence that St. John places this narrative in Aenon. (https://bibleatlas.org/aenon.htm)

Nowhere in this narrative does Jesus speak of angels and their need to be born again.

I referenced a highly respected, scholarly, and published Greek Lexicon (Greek - English dictionary) that directly says it does often (but not always) refer to “angels” in these verses.


Just as the Apostle spoke of different bodies given to plant seeds, livestock, birds, fish and finally humans.

And God gives it a body just as He willed— indeed, to each of the seeds its own body. Not all flesh is the same flesh. But there is one of humans, and another flesh of livestock, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.​

1 Corinthians 15:38-39 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:38-39&version=DLNT

and I’ll repeat (just once this time and leave it to you to post against the dictionary as you have Webster’s) my evidence from a Greek-English dictionary:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon​

STRONGS NT 2032: ἐπουράνιος​

“the heavenly beings, the inhabitants of heaven, ... of angels ... and of the angels, 1 Corinthians 15:4”​

​

​

Check your source again, as it does not state ἐπουράνιος = angels. Rather, it supports exactly what I am saying…

properly, existing in or above heaven, heavenly;
existing in heaven
a. the things that take place in heaven
b. the heavenly regions
c. the heavenly temple or sanctuary

2. of heavenly origin and nature

Furthermore, per your own source, the “heavenly beings, the inhabitants of heaven” is a reference to the the works of Lucian of Samosota (Diologues with the Gods, 4, 3), not Scripture.

Thus “…and of the angels” ≠ an actual angel

Thank you for the source ---> https://biblehub.com/greek/2032.htm

Please quote and underline “saints” in Phil 2. That is, for support of your claim. While we wait for that evidence, here’s what a Lexicon actually has to say about the word:

i. e. in honor of one, Romans 14:11 (1 Kings 19:18); ἐν ὀνόματι Ἰησοῦ, Philippians 2:10 (Isaiah 45:23).​

Heavenly angels honor the firstborn, Jesus!

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “And let all the angels of God worship him.”​

Hebrews 1:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Hebrews 1:6&version=LEB


Have you ever seen an angel here on Earth? Lot did, and here’s what it says about them:

And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening. And Lot was sitting in the gateway of Sodom. Then Lot saw them and stood up to meet them. And he bowed down with his face to the ground. And he said, “Behold, my lords, please turn aside into the house of your servant and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you can rise early and go on your way.” And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the square.”​

Genesis 19:1-2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis 19:1-2&version=LEB

Evidently they appear to have “feet” (dirty ones, which are connected to the shin bones, which are connected to the thigh bones, ... by the knees. If I remember my childrens song correctly.)

I never claimed Phil 2:10 uses the word saints. Rather, I stated its use of “those in heaven” is not a direct reference to an angel (as YOU claimed), given that angels are not the only beings in heaven. (Saints also reside in heaven, per Rev 5:8)

Recall your own definition of an angel in your previous post: “Angels are non-flesh spirits, created by God.” Spirits do not have knees.

 

[Walpole]

Do you understand what the phrase means:

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood.


Because this same John uses this expression to denote that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin.

Came by water refers to natural birth.

Came by water and blood refers to supernatural virgin birth.


The context is clear is John 3:5-6, as Jesus defines what He means in 5, in the next verse

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh,
• and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6


Born of water - natural birth - earthly thing

Born of the Spirit - Spiritual birth - heavenly thing


Came by water - natural birth

Came by water and blood - virgin birth.


That is what these phrases refer to.

If you do understand or agree then so be it.



If a fallen angel hears the Gospel can they repent and return to God and be made spiritually alive again ; born again?



JLB

No, I don't understand YOUR interpretation given that nowhere in Scripture is the term "water" synonymous with natural birth (i.e. being born). Rather, it is associated with being born again. For example...

John 3:5
Acts 8:36-39
Acts 10:47
Hebrews 10:22
1 Peter 3:20-21
1 John 5:6-8

 

[WIP]

Let's try to cool things down a little in this discussion. I've noticed a few remarks that are personal in nature and these only serve to divide rather than unite. Please present your arguments (statements) with the goal of uniting each other rather than attempting to prove each other wrong.

 

[chessman]

Let’s look at the text and see it unfold…

Excellent, that’s really my whole point. It unfolds chronologically from confusion on Nicodemus’ part to clarity with what JESUS finally says to him (not the other way around). And it becomes clear, only by taking to heart what Jesus literally said about what can and cannot enter into the kingdom of God, not what Nicodemus said. And reposting mis-translations of said Scripture (which have since been corrected) is only continuing the confusion. You never even got to the good part, BTW.

Sorry

Apology accepted.

Check your source again, as it does not state ἐπουράνιος = angels.

I never said it did equal angels. I said the word can be used (and is by Paul) to refer to “angels”. I never said it = angels. Just as the Lexicon I quoted denotes, twice.

Rather, it supports exactly what I am saying…

Nope. If that were the case; 1) why doesn’t it mention saints? And 2) why, exactly, do you think Thayer’s even mentions “angels” (twice) in giving definition to this word (regardless of his Scriptural and non-Scriptural sources)?

Furthermore, per your own source, the “heavenly beings, the inhabitants of heaven” is a reference to the the works of Lucian of Samosota (Diologues with the Gods, 4, 3), not Scripture.

No, Lucian’s writings like Paul’s, is simply supporting Thayer’s listed range of definition (which includes “angels” as I have pointed out). Why??? Because that’s the meaning of the word as used within that culture (whether religious or secular. He uses Homer and all kinds of Greek writings.

But Thayer’s point is most definitely that Paul is referring to “angels” (not saints) in Philippians 2:10 and 1 Cor 15

“of angels, in opposition to ἐπιγειοι and καταχθονιοι, Philippians 2:10”

As all that’s necessary to see this fact is to read on in the 1 Cor 15 reference until v23-26 where Paul repeats the same point (using different words this time) that even the dominos/principalities/rulers/authorities, even “death”, will one day ‘bend a knee’ to Jesus.

the first place, principality, rule, magistracy (cf. English 'authorities') (ἄρχω τίνος): Luke 12:11; Luke 20:20; Titus 3:1; office given in charge (Genesis 40:13, 21; 2 Macc. 4:10, etc.), Jude 1:6. Hence, the term is transferred by Paul to angels and demons holding dominions entrusted to them in the order of things