Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[LeviR]

See you doing all that big talk about believing exactly what Gods word says, now look at you. Did Adam die in the day he ate as God stated ? Yes or No Gen 2:17

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

You would certainly have a much better argument if you could produce a witness or two to testify that Adam became spiritually dead. Or that anyone else is such.

With no witnesses or testimony I have to agree that Adam was sure to die the day he ate. He was to return to the earth from which he was created.

 

[brightfame52]

i am believing it because on the day Adam ate the fruit was the day he would surely die.
On that very day it was certain he would die.
And so God told Adam what would happen. Adam was made from dust and would return to it.

See you doing all that big talk about believing exactly what Gods word says, now look at you. Did Adam die in the day he ate as God stated ? Yes or No Gen 2:17

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[brightfame52]

You would certainly have a much better argument if you could produce a witness or two to testify that Adam became spiritually dead. Or that anyone else is such.

With no witnesses or testimony I have to agree that Adam was sure to die the day he ate. He was to return to the earth from which he was created.

See you doing all that big talk about believing exactly what Gods word says, now look at you. Did Adam die in the day he ate as God stated ? Yes or No Gen 2:17

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[Whatever]

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

I've read that the Hebrew means "dying you shall die." In other words, Adam became mortal at that time. His body began to deteriorate and grow old.

Being perfect at his creation, with no genetic mistakes, and no pollution like we have in the world now, it took him 700 or so years to die. It never mentions Eve's death.

 

[brightfame52]

Whatever

I've read that the Hebrew means "dying you shall die." In other words, Adam became mortal at that time. His body began to deteriorate and grow old.

Im aware of that, and thats included, but he lived 900 years after that, so he didnt die physically that day

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Do you believe that God exists beyond time and space? If you do, then it's meaningless to squabble on this "election", which could be easily confused with political elections. God knows everything, He is the past, present and future, the end was declared at the beginning, so of course he knows which individuals eventually end up in that "great multitude". But as long as we're not omniscient like God, we shouldn't pretend that we're able to tell who's the "elect" and who's not and treat them accordingly.

 

[Whatever]

Im aware of that, and thats included, but he lived 900 years after that, so he didnt die physically that day

But if Adam did not die physically that day, then it must not have been what God meant.

 

[Whatever]

But as long as we're not omniscient like God, we shouldn't pretend that we're able to tell who's the "elect" and who's not and treat them accordingly.

Calvinists I know don't try to figure out who is elect and who isn't. Looking at Paul's (Saul) life before his conversion, most would consider him as not elect.

The thing is, God's elect are born just like everybody else. They sin, join gangs, rob banks, spend time in prison and act like reprobates. But at God's timing and not before, He works faith into the person and they are born again. They were always elect, but were only born again at God's time in God's way.

 

[brightfame52]

But if Adam did not die physically that day, then it must not have been what God meant.

That doesnt make sense, because he didnt die physically that day, as already stated, he began to die physically that day, then lived 8 or 9 more centuries. He died , spiritually or morally, from his pristine innocence, his image and likeness of God, that's why man has to be recreated Eph 4 :23-24

22 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Col 3:10

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Also if he wasnt one of Gods elect, which I believe he was, he would have died eternally into the lake of fire, where some of his natural descendants are going because of his sin !

 

[Fish153]

Yeah, and Abraham was made the father of a multitude of nations before he even had a child.

One of the problems I noticed with Reformed Theology after having moved on to see what others had to say, is that they miss a lot of stuff. They learn the same things and pass those same things on to the next.
They are very limited in what they think they’ve already figured out.

Maybe you should get out more. It doesn’t hurt, really it doesn’t.

LeviR----- I wasn't going to post any more but read this verse this morning:

"We know that we HAVE PASSED from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains IN DEATH". (1 John 3:14)

Can you explain how a living person who does not love "remains in death"? John says we know we "HAVE PASSED from death to life" because we love each other. How can a person who is already alive physically PASS FROM DEATH TO LIFE"?

The explanation is that John is referring to SPIRITUAL life and death LeviR. The one who REMAINS IN DEATH is physically alive, but needing to be "born-again" to SPIRITUAL LIFE. I wish you could see and understand this. It is clearly referring to a SPIRITUAL DEATH---and a "PASSING" from that spiritual death to life NOW. "We know that we HAVE PASSED from death to life" is in the past tense. it's something that happens now! YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

 

[Tenchi]

www.soteriology101.com - Provisionism.

www.evangelicalarminians.org - Arminianism.

www.reasonablefaith.org - Molinism.

 

[LeviR]

LeviR----- I wasn't going to post any more but read this verse this morning:

"We know that we HAVE PASSED from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains IN DEATH". (1 John 3:14)

Can you explain how a living person who does not love "remains in death"? John says we know we "HAVE PASSED from death to life" because we love each other. How can a person who is already alive physically PASS FROM DEATH TO LIFE"?

The explanation is that John is referring to SPIRITUAL life and death LeviR. The one who REMAINS IN DEATH is physically alive, but needing to be "born-again" to SPIRITUAL LIFE. I wish you could see and understand this. It is clearly referring to a SPIRITUAL DEATH---and a "PASSING" from that spiritual death to life NOW. "We know that we HAVE PASSED from death to life" is in the past tense. it's something that happens now! YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.

It’s the language of Scripture. It speaks that way. God calls things that are not yet as though they were.
To say we have passed from death to life simply means with have passed from the condemnation in Adam to the life in Christ. From the grave to heaven. From a natural body to the spiritual body by resurrection from the dead.
When this mortal will put on immortality and death will be swallowed up in victory.

 

[Fish153]

It’s the language of Scripture. It speaks that way. God calls things that are not yet as though they were.
To say we have passed from death to life simply means with have passed from the condemnation in Adam to the life in Christ. From the grave to heaven. From a natural body to the spiritual body by resurrection from the dead.
When this mortal will put on immortality and death will be swallowed up in victory.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS PASSED from death unto life.” (John 5:24)

You are ignoring the plain teaching of scripture. Jesus is speaking of those who are ALREADY PHYSICALLY ALIVE. But he is NOT referring to physical life or death here. He is stating that the one who hears his word and truly trusts in Him that sent Him----HAS eternal life SPIRITUALLY. They HAVE PASSED from death to life. He is saying the same thing that 1 John 3:14 is saying. But you refuse to hear the message. Unless you realize that you are spiritually dead and need to be born-again you make the same error the Pharisees made. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus "You MUST be born-again!!"

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Calvinists I know don't try to figure out who is elect and who isn't. Looking at Paul's (Saul) life before his conversion, most would consider him as not elect.

The thing is, God's elect are born just like everybody else. They sin, join gangs, rob banks, spend time in prison and act like reprobates. But at God's timing and not before, He works faith into the person and they are born again. They were always elect, but were only born again at God's time in God's way.

Then I don't know what's the point of preaching this if the elect can't be identified. As far as I'm concerned, a tree is known by its fruit, for a good tree doesn't bear bad fruit, and a bad tree doesn't bear good fruit.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

www.soteriology101.com - Provisionism.

www.evangelicalarminians.org - Arminianism.

www.reasonablefaith.org - Molinism.

These various beliefs only add more confusion, and it's nothing but diversion tactics. In Jesus's encounter with the woman at the well, Jesus went personal, which made the woman uncomfortable, in response she applied two tactics: first flattering Jesus by honoring him as a prophet, then changed the topic to a theological issue - where is the right place to worship?

Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”(Jn. 4:16-20)

 

[brightfame52]

Then I don't know what's the point of preaching this if the elect can't be identified. As far as I'm concerned, a tree is known by its fruit, for a good tree doesn't bear bad fruit, and a bad tree doesn't bear good fruit.

The preacher doesnt have to Identify the elect, God does that, then He sends the preacher to deliver the Gospel of their Salvation, the ones showing a sincere interest and receptivity to the Gospel will probably be that elect one.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The preacher doesnt have to Identify the elect, God does that, then He sends the preacher to deliver the Gospel of their Salvation, the ones showing a sincere interest and receptivity to the Gospel will probably be that elect one.

Yeah, "probably", 'cause there're four types of soils that receive the seed of the gospel, and the ones showing interest might be the second - the shallow soil - or the third soil - thorny soil, both sprout, but no growth. The fourth doesn't sprout, translation, no apparent interest or receptivity, but that's the one that eventually yields fruits. You'll never know.

 

[Whatever]

Then I don't know what's the point of preaching this if the elect can't be identified.

It is not about trying to identify the elect. Election is a Biblical truth. We preach and teach the whole council of God. We preach and teach it because it is true. We don't hide doctrines because we think somebody might be offended.

 

[LeviR]

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS PASSED from death unto life.” (John 5:24)

You are ignoring the plain teaching of scripture. Jesus is speaking of those who are ALREADY PHYSICALLY ALIVE. But he is NOT referring to physical life or death here. He is stating that the one who hears his word and truly trusts in Him that sent Him----HAS eternal life SPIRITUALLY. They HAVE PASSED from death to life. He is saying the same thing that 1 John 3:14 is saying. But you refuse to hear the message. Unless you realize that you are spiritually dead and need to be born-again you make the same error the Pharisees made. That is why Jesus told Nicodemus "You MUST be born-again!!"

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS PASSED from death unto life.” (John 5:24)

The condemnation or judgment against Adam and all since who are like him, flesh and blood man, is that they are to die and return to where they came from.

Jesus says that those who hear his word and believe on Him that sent him, has everlasting life, and shall not come into the condemnation of Adam by returning to the earth and never seeing life again. They have passed from that eternal punishment to life everlasting by resurrection from the dead.

Jhn 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Because Jesus is the resurrection and the life, he who believes in him and has died shall live again, forever.

Act 4:2
Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

The Jewish leaders did not like that the disciples of Christ were preaching the resurrection from the dead. But without it there is no hope for those who have died.

Act 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part wereSadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Paul preached the hope of resurrection of the dead. The Sadducees didn’t believe in it.

Paul goes into great detail of the vital importance of the resurrection of the dead in 1 Cor 15.

If there is no resurrection of the dead, all hope is lost. And faith is worthless.

 

[brightfame52]

Yeah, "probably", 'cause there're four types of soils that receive the seed of the gospel, and the ones showing interest might be the second - the shallow soil - or the third soil - thorny soil, both sprout, but no growth. The fourth doesn't sprout, translation, no apparent interest or receptivity, but that's the one that eventually yields fruits. You'll never know.

Like I said, the preacher doesnt know who the elect are, if they show a interest in the Gospel, in charity we may hope they are of the elect, but only time will tell, the true convert will continue in the truth and not fall away.