Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[follower]

Seems the definition of spiritual death is hanging things up here.
What do you think spiritual death is ?

Condemnation is NOT spiritual death. It is a judgement against the sinful human nature of man.

 

[LeviR]

For all of the remaining days of Adam’s life he was to work hard for his food. He was to do so until his life was over. At which point he would return to the ground from which he was made.

This is the sentence upon all man. There was no sentence of spiritual death.

The thing that separates us from seeing God and entering His kingdom of heaven is our sinful flesh nature.

Flesh and blood can not see or enter God’s kingdom as represented as paradise, not because he is “spiritually dead” but because he needs a change to his flesh and blood nature. The nature he was created with must be changed.
Once his nature is change, he can then both see and enter paradise.

1Co 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

1Co 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

1Co 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[fn]

1Co 15:55
“O Death, where is your sting?[fn]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[fn]

1Co 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

1Co 15:57
But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

The body that is raised from the dead is not of sinful flesh and blood. It is a change of nature.
Paul says that it is incorruptible and immortal.

It is by being raised from the sleep of death or immediately changed upon those who are not sleeping the sleep of death. They shall all be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

When this happens, they will actually be seated with Christ in the heavenly places as Paul said they are in Eph 2.

Eph 2:4
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

Eph 2:5
even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Eph 2:6
and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Obviously we are not sitting together in the heavenly with Christ. Not yet.

Paul is here referring to being born of water when baptized into the name of Christ.
Baptism symbolizes death, burial and resurrection with Christ.

Symbolically, we die to the flesh and are raised to sit with Christ through baptism.
It actually occurs when our nature changed in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, when Christ returns to claim those who are his.
They will then actually be seated with him where he actually is seated.

 

[follower]

Maybe you are not. That explains a little more why you also don't know what spiritual death is.
Knowing neither God's Word nor His Power.

Obviously we are not sitting together in the heavenly with Christ. Not yet.

 

[LeviR]

Maybe you are not. That explains a little more why you also don't know what spiritual death is.
Knowing neither God's Word nor His Power.

After Christ died and rose from the dead, he ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

Are you telling us that you died, were raised from the dead and have ascended to sit with Christ in heaven?

Why are you still here if you believe that?

Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father until his enemies are made his footstool. At which point he will return.

 

[Dave...]

LeviR

I hope I'm making sense out of what you're saying correctly.

I believe the passage that you quoted in 1 Corinthians is speaking of our physical resurrection (15:52). As it is evidenced earlier in that same chapter by the phrases "Fallen asleep", and "at His coming" below....

1 Corinthians 15: 20-23 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

When we're born again, as a result of the baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit, that being, Jesus placing the Holy Spirit in us (in Christ), we're spiritually born again, but the physically resurrection comes later as Paul describes in the verses that you quoted. Just as we who are in Christ are already are spiritually raised up in Him (Romans 6, Colossians 2:10-14, Galatians 3:26-29, 1Peter 3:21), we will be physically raised up in Him as Paul describes above.

Romans 6:3-14 is so important with regards to what you have been discussing. This spiritual resurrection has already happened for anyone in Christ. Setting aside the legality of our salvation, It frees us (delivers us, saves us) from the bondage of sin. We still sin, but we are no longer slaves to sin. It is Christ's death and resurrection that we identify with as a result of this baptism (immersion, placing into) in such a way that we are spiritually raised up with Him (born again) now, and we will be physically raised up with Him later. It's owed to us.

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Ephesians 2:6 just means that "in Christ", our position is the same as Christs. He's speaking of it as it has already happened.

A side note the in Galatians 3:29 with regards to the earlier part of this discussion. "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Think about that with regards to what is being said in Ephesians 2:6 above. Jesus is the Seed, and our position "in Christ", is being Abrahams seed, heirs according to the promise.

Dave

 

[Whatever]

When did Adam receive a soul that separates from the body?

They seem to be separate.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As far as Adam:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The word "being" or "soul" in the King James is nephesh = properly a breathing creature, that is, animal. Used 753 times in the OT.

All that happened was that God created the body of Adam. Adam was finished but wasn't breathing or his heart beating. God did CPR on him and started him to life. Kind of like how Dr. Frankenstein did except he used lightning.

 

[LeviR]

They seem to be separate.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

As far as Adam:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The word "being" or "soul" in the King James is nephesh = properly a breathing creature, that is, animal. Used 753 times in the OT.

All that happened was that God created the body of Adam. Adam was finished but wasn't breathing or his heart beating. God did CPR on him and started him to life. Kind of like how Dr. Frankenstein did except he used lightning.

Right. Man was formed from the ground and God breathed into the man the breath of life. The man then became what is called a living soul.
The breath of life is the animating ingredient for the man to become a living soul.


Mat 10:28
“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This passage is relied upon by those who say man was given an immortal soul at his creation rather then becoming a living soul when God breathed the breath of life into the man.

Mat 10:39
“He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mat 16:25
“For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Mar 8:35
“For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.


The same exact word is used in those passages as used in Matt 10:28

If one loses his soul/life for the sake of Jesus he will find it.

If one loses his immortal soul for the sake of Jesus he will find it?

No. The meaning is that if someone kills your body for the sake of Jesus, your life/soul will be restored to you. At his coming.

 

[brightfame52]

Except the Bible presents no on as spiritually dead.

If the Bible presented anyone as spiritually dead it would certainly say so don’t you think?

If the Bible doesn’t present anyone as spiritually dead, who does?

Man does..

The word dead in Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


Its the greek word nekros:

1. properly
   1. one that has breathed his last, lifeless
   2. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
   3. destitute of life, without life, inanimate

Also it has a metaphorical meaning :

1. metaph.
   1. spiritually dead
      1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
      2. inactive as respects doing right
   2. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

So Eph 2:1,5 is obviously meaning dead in the metaporical sense. So try studying, even though you still cant see it. Paul's point is:

A person who is spiritually dead is one who cannot do anything toward their salvation. Hence this sets the ground work for election and grace for salvation.

 

[LeviR]

The word dead in Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


Its the greek word nekros:

1. properly
   1. one that has breathed his last, lifeless
   2. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
   3. destitute of life, without life, inanimate

Also it has a metaphorical meaning :

1. metaph.
   1. spiritually dead
      1. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
      2. inactive as respects doing right
   2. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

So Eph 2:1,5 is obviously meaning dead in the metaporical sense. So try studying, even though you still cant see it. Paul's point is:

A person who is spiritually dead is one who cannot do anything toward their salvation. Hence this sets the ground work for election and grace for salvation.

I want to ask you a question because I can admit of the possibility that all man can be spiritually dead.
I understand the doctrine of total depavity.

The question I have for you is whether or not you can admit the possibility that all men are said to be dead because all men have been condemned to die in Adam.

Or as the writer of Hebrews says, all men have an appointment with death. They have an appointment with the grave.
Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Is that a possibility?

 

[brightfame52]

I want to ask you a question because I can admit of the possibility that all man can be spiritually dead.
I understand the doctrine of total depavity.

The question I have for you is whether or not you can admit the possibility that all men are said to be dead because all men have been condemned to die in Adam.

Or as the writer of Hebrews says, all men have an appointment with death. They have an appointment with the grave.
Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

Is that a possibility?

Your question doesnt make sense to me.

 

[LeviR]

Your question doesnt make sense to me.

People who have been condemned to die under the death penalty and who are on death row are said to be “dead men walking”.

The idea is that man has been condemned in Adam. He has been judged the same fate as Adam. He is made from dust and returns to it.

My question is, if man has been condemned to death, is it possible that he is said to be dead in tresspasses and sins?

That being “dead” refers to his fate.

 

[brightfame52]

People who have been condemned to die under the death penalty and who are on death row are said to be “dead men walking”.

The idea is that man has been condemned in Adam. He has been judged the same fate as Adam. He is made from dust and returns to it.

My question is, if man has been condemned to death, is it possible that he is said to be dead in tresspasses and sins?

That being “dead” refers to his fate.

I pass on these questions, they are confusing and non essential to the thread. My point has been in light of election ,one of the reasons for election of grace, all men by nature are dead to God, and it pleased God as a manifestation of His Grace to rescue some for His honor and Glory, He didn't have to save any, we could have been like the Angels who sinned and received no Grace and Mercy from God, but eternal damnation.

2 Pet 2:4

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

But we dont hear nobody saying God is unfair when it comes to the fallen angels

 

[LeviR]

I pass on these questions, they are confusing and non essential to the thread. My point has been in light of election ,one of the reasons for election of grace, all men by nature are dead to God, and it pleased God as a manifestation of His Grace to rescue some for His honor and Glory, He didn't have to save any, we could have been like the Angels who sinned and received no Grace and Mercy from God, but eternal damnation.

2 Pet 2:4

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

But we dont hear nobody saying God is unfair when it comes to the fallen angels

I think the question is essential to the thread because Calvinism is based on the idea that men are spiritually dead.
However, if men can be said to be dead by having been judged to die, then the idea of spiritual death is only an opinion.
And since we can find no one in scripture said to be spiritually dead, it is highly likely that men are dead because they have been judged to death. Because that IS what we find in scripture.

So I agree with what we do actually find taught in scripture as opposed to someone’s idea that men are “spiritually dead”.

No one in scripture says that.

 

[brightfame52]

I think the question is essential to the thread because Calvinism is based on the idea that men are spiritually dead.
However, if men can be said to be dead by having been judged to die, then the idea of spiritual death is only an opinion.
And since we can find no one in scripture said to be spiritually dead, it is highly likely that men are dead because they have been judged to death. Because that IS what we find in scripture.

So I agree with what we do actually find taught in scripture as opposed to someone’s idea that men are “spiritually dead”.

No one in scripture says that.

As stated, spiritually dead, you cant see it

 

[LeviR]

As stated, spiritually dead, you cant see it

I don’t think people should teach something and say it’s what the Bible teaches when the words they use can’t be found in scripture. Or actually taught by anyone in scripture.
Especially when another possibility exists that is taught in scripture.

So it seems you prefer the words not found in scripture while I prefer the ones that are.

For example,

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


There is no more judgment in Adam against man for those in Christ Jesus.

Adam wasn’t judged to die spiritually. He was judged to return to where he came from.

 

[brightfame52]

I don’t think people should teach something and say it’s what the Bible teaches when the words they use can’t be found in scripture. Or actually taught by anyone in scripture.
Especially when another possibility exists that is taught in scripture.

So it seems you prefer the words not found in scripture while I prefer the ones that are.

For example,

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


There is no more judgment in Adam against man for those in Christ Jesus.

It really dont matter what you think when it comes to these matters, you have your opinion

 

[LeviR]

It really dont matter what you think when it comes to these matters, you have your opinion

But it’s not my opinion. I have the actual words used in scripture. Your words aren’t there.

 

[LeviR]

I can very easily show that the judgment against Adam was to return to the ground where he came from.
The WORDS are there.

Can a Calvinist show that Adam became “spiritually dead”.

No, because the WORDS aren’t there

That’s how simple it actually is.

 

[LeviR]

If the scripture teaches it, then go with it.

If it’s something man teaches, go with what scripture teaches.

Simple.

 

[brightfame52]

But it’s not my opinion. I have the actual words used in scripture. Your words aren’t there.

Yes it is your opinion,just because you quote a scripture doesnt ensure you understand it