Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[Whatever]

I believe in the "election" as much as you do

No, you don't!

the "elect" are the “chosen" among the "called", as in "many are called, few are chosen", I think at least we can agree on that, right?

Right!

The difference is that I also believe that the calling is not rigged, the saved were NOT predetermined before the calling,

That's where you are wrong. You believe this because of your emotional need for man to be the one who decides.

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Many are called by the outward call of the gospel by preachers like Billy Graham and others. But only the chosen will be saved.

I know you can take every verse above and twist it to mean that God chooses those people beforehand, because He looked into the future and saw who would believe, and based on this foreknowledge He chooses them.
It is interpreted that way to keep man's free will as the captain of his own ship.

 

[Fastfredy0]

the saved were NOT predetermined

this contradicts:

• Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
• Jeremiah 10:23 O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps.
• Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God, not the will of man]
• Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth [I openly and joyfully acknowledge Your great wisdom], that You have hidden these things [these spiritual truths] from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to infants [to new believers, to those seeking God’s will and purpose]. Another example of God picking the winners and losers.
• John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD. Martin Luther: they become the sons of God, neither by the birth of the flesh, nor by a devoted observance of the law, nor by any devoted human effort whatever, but by a Divine birth only. Those three negative statements stress the fact that salvation is not obtainable through any racial or ethnic heritage ( blood ), personal desire ( flesh ), or man-made system ( man ). (See also Matthew 8:11–12; Luke 3:8; Galatians 3:28–29.) John MacArthur
• John 3:27 John replied, “A man can receive nothing [he can claim nothing at all] unless it has been granted to him from heaven [for there is no other source than the sovereign will of God]. Does man have a “Free-will” over God, that God should do and obey in those things which man will? Surely not.
• John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
• Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
• 1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior or what sets you apart as special? What do you have that you did not receive [from another]? And if in fact you received it [from God or someone else], why do you boast as if you had not received it [but had gained it by yourself]?
• 1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her

I could go on for a 100 more verses, but what's the sense. If you believe your faith is self-determined then you are relying on 'works' to save you since work is define as "a mental of physical effort to achieve a purpose".

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That's where you are wrong. You believe this because of your emotional need for man to be the one who decides.

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Define "us" first. Are you an Ephesian from the Ephesian church? And later in Revelation, this church had lost its first love for God, so how does "holy and without blame before Him in love" apply? This verse is talking about the salvation plan, which is not a fix in reaction to the Fall, that's all.

To the angel of the church of Ephesus write ... (Rev. 2:1)
Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent ... (Rev. 2:4-5)
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’ (Rev. 2:7)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

Again, define "we" and "brethren" first. It is arbitrary unless you're from Thessalonica.

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Same as Eph 1:4, define "us" first.

I know you can take every verse above and twist it to mean that God chooses those people beforehand, because He looked into the future and saw who would believe, and based on this foreknowledge He chooses them.
It is interpreted that way to keep man's free will as the captain of his own ship.

The chosen ones are the ones who have an "ear to hear". Many were called in Ephesus, but who exactly among them were chosen? Only from God's omniscient perspective is it determined beforehand because God is beyond time and space, it's like a movie producer viewing his own script; but from OUR perspective, only those who believe in God through Jesus, those who actually have an ear to hear - AND OBEY - are the chosen ones. As long as we're not omniscient as God, from our perspective, we have a conscious choice to serve God or other idols, says not I but the Scripture.

"And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Joshua 24:15)
“How long will you falter between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.”(1 Kings 18:21)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

this contradicts:

Salvation through Christ is a conscious choice, God doesn't force it upon anybody. As long as you're not the past, the present and the future like God, you don't have God's foreknowledge of whose names are on the book of life and whose are not, all of these verses only indicate God's sovereignty.

And when He had come into the house, the blind men came to Him. And Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to Him, “Yes, Lord.” (Matt. 9:28)

Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. (Matt. 19:21-22)

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. (Jn. 6:66)

Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” (Acts 8:37)

 

[Fastfredy0]

Salvation through Christ is a conscious choice

Many verses contradict your statement:

• Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. [Your life is written (not recorded) by God, we follow His script and not our own. As we did not exist when this knowledge was known to God the source of this knowledge must be God and not foreseen future events for knowledge cannot be obtained from nothing and that is what we all were at one time or more accurately, before time]
• Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
• Matthew 11:27 All things have been entrusted and delivered to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known. [the will of the Son determines who knows God, not the will of man]
• Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth [I openly and joyfully acknowledge Your great wisdom], that You have hidden these things [these spiritual truths] from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to infants [to new believers, to those seeking God’s will and purpose]. Another example of God picking the winners and losers.
• John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD. Martin Luther: they become the sons of God, neither by the birth of the flesh, nor by a devoted observance of the law, nor by any devoted human effort whatever, but by a Divine birth only. Those three negative statements stress the fact that salvation is not obtainable through any racial or ethnic heritage ( blood ), personal desire ( flesh ), or man-made system ( man ). (See also Matthew 8:11–12; Luke 3:8; Galatians 3:28–29.) John MacArthur

100s more verses... I won't bother to list them

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Many verses contradict your statement:

None of these is relevant. Please read the following passage, especially 13:22 and 13:28, and put your feet in the disciples' shoes instead of the Lord's.

When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.” Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke. Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke. Then, leaning back on Jesus’ breast, he said to Him, “Lord, who is it?”Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him. For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, “Buy those things we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. Having received the piece of bread, he then went out immediately. And it was night. (Jn. 13:18-30)

 

[Whatever]

Again, define "we" and "brethren" first. It is arbitrary unless you're from Thessalonica.

Paul defines it himself.:
"To the church of the Thessalonians"
"we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure"
"But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and brought us good news of your faith and love
"We" would be Paul, Timothy and the Churches that Paul had visited.
"Brethern" would be anybody who was a member in good standing of a Church.

Same as Eph 1:4, define "us" first.

The "us" is "the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful."

As long as we're not omniscient as God, from our perspective, we have a conscious choice to serve God or other idols, says not I but the Scripture.

You haven't read the Scriptures very closely. I'm not going to bother to waste my time quoting verses that you will just ignore.

"And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Joshua 24:15)
“How long will you falter between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.”(1 Kings 18:21)

This proves nothing except that Elijah told them to choose one or the other.
We all have to choose one or the other. This does not prove we all have the ability to choose God.

2 Co 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,

 

[Whatever]

Salvation through Christ is a conscious choice, God doesn't force it upon anybody.

Again, you only selectively read the Scriptures.
Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

With the Ezekiel passage above, you have to believe with all you heart. No half hearted belief will do. With the carnal natural heart, this is impossible.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

This is what Jesus was talking about when He said "you must be born again." If this doesn't happen, all a natural man can muster up is a half-hearted belief.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

"We" would be Paul, Timothy and the Churches that Paul had visited.

Then you mean the loveless church in Ephesus?

"Brethern" would be anybody who was a member in good standing of a Church.

Only if "good standing" means doing the will of God.

But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother. (Matt. 12:48-50)

The "us" is "the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful."

Then how is that applicable to anybody else? Even within Ephesus, how do you know who are the saints and who are the ain'ts? How do you know who has an ear to hear and who does not?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You haven't read the Scriptures very closely. I'm not going to bother to waste my time quoting verses that you will just ignore.

According to you who've just ignored the verses I quoted.

This proves nothing except that Elijah told them to choose one or the other.
We all have to choose one or the other. This does not prove we all have the ability to choose God.

It does prove your denial of what the bible clearly states. And it's not just in those instances, it is a conscious choice to receive or reject the gospel.

And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” So Paul departed from among them. However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them. (Acts 17:34)

Again, you only selectively read the Scriptures.

Really? Isn't this verse supposed to be about the renewal of Israel? To take the stone out and give them a heart of flesh? Interetingly, God's words cut to the heart, but Jewish pilgrims from other nations did receive a heart of flesh, Jewish mob didn't, instead they killed the Stephen. Tell me how is that. It seems to me that God's word is the same, it was the listeners who reacted differently.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (Acts 2:37)

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.” .... When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth ... and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. (Acts. 7:51-58)

This is what Jesus was talking about when He said "you must be born again." If this doesn't happen, all a natural man can muster up is a half-hearted belief.

To be born again requires true repentance, that is a conscious choice.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance ... (Matt. 3:7-8)

 

[Whatever]

Really? Isn't this verse supposed to be about the renewal of Israel? To take the stone out and give them a heart of flesh?

When we get to the New Testament we find out that the "renewal of Israel" takes place in the Ekklesia (Church), through the New Covenant, not a physical nation in a physical land.

It seems to me that God's word is the same, it was the listeners who reacted differently.

The problem is that you can't see the invisible hand of God working in those "listeners."
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things,

Tell me, how does a natural man become spiritual? Here's how:
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints . . .

2Co 4:3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded . . . .

That is the difference between the "listeners" and the "mockers."

 

[Whatever]

Only if "good standing" means doing the will of God.

"Good standing" is a human requirement that the elders use (with their fallible judgment) to say that a person comes to Church regularly and doesn't have to be disciplined by them for drunkenness, adultery and so forth.

Even within Ephesus, how do you know who are the saints and who are the ain'ts? How do you know who has an ear to hear and who does not?

By seeing if they come to Church. Those who have ears to hear are there in Church Sunday and those who do not, are out playing golf or doing a million other things. We can only tell by how people act. We cannot see peoples hearts.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

When we get to the New Testament we find out that the "renewal of Israel" takes place in the Ekklesia (Church), through the New Covenant, not a physical nation in a physical land.

That's the anti-semetic replacement theology.

The problem is that you can't see the invisible hand of God working in those "listeners."

"He who has an ear, let him hear." You can't see that hearing or not is a conscious decision. The invisible hand of God must be received first before any working can even begin to proceed. A sinner must lay down their sin at the cross and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior before the hand of God can use them for any work.

Tell me, how does a natural man become spiritual?

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

"Good standing" is a human requirement that the elders use (with their fallible judgment) to say that a person comes to Church regularly and doesn't have to be disciplined by them for drunkenness, adultery and so forth.

I've shown you Jesus's own definition of "my brethren", take it or leave it.

By seeing if they come to Church. Those who have ears to hear are there in Church Sunday and those who do not, are out playing golf or doing a million other things. We can only tell by how people act. We cannot see peoples hearts.

Then you walk by sight and not by faith. You can't tell who's attending service for socializing, therapy or study research.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

By seeing if they come to Church. Those who have ears to hear are there in Church Sunday and those who do not, are out playing golf or doing a million other things. We can only tell by how people act. We cannot see peoples hearts.

Btw, you may wanna reassess this rule of thumb if what's preached from the pulpit is saturated with government propaganda with a Chrstian label or self-help TED talk with a Chrstian label, nothing about current issues or bible prophecy is ever addressed. I can't blame those people who attend service for socializing, therapy or study research when those are all a "church" can offer.

 

[Whatever]

I've shown you Jesus's own definition of "my brethren", take it or leave it.

Yes, but if you are a pastor or elder of a Church, how do you know that Joe Blow keeps all God's commandments?
This is where grace comes in. You assume he obeying all God's commandments until you find out he isn't.

Then you walk by sight and not by faith. You can't tell who's attending service for socializing, therapy or study research.

And you can't see who is keeping God's commandments at home or at work.

 

[Whatever]

That's the anti-semetic replacement theology.

Jews were the first Christians. They are no longer "in" just because they are Jews. They have to be grafted back in by faith.

A sinner must lay down their sin at the cross and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior before the hand of God can use them for any work.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The sinner thinks the stuff about the cross us stupid nonsense. Why would he accept stupid nonsense?

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Right there Jesus gives you the answer. You must be born again first. Then what Paul says will happen.
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, . . .

Being born again makes a natural man a spiritual man who no longer thinks the things of God are stupid, and then he can "lay down his sin at the cross and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior."

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Sinner are held captive by the devil. God has to grant them repentance so they can come to their senses.
You seem to think that a sinner can break the power of the devil and come to their senses all by their own power and then accept Christ and then God rewards them for this. Something to really boast about.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, but if you are a pastor or elder of a Church, how do you know that Joe Blow keeps all God's commandments?
This is where grace comes in. You assume he obeying all God's commandments until you find out he isn't.

A pastor or elder is not Big Brother with omnipresent surveillance, whether Joe blow keeps all God's commandments or not is between him and God. Wheat and tares look alike, and God allows both to grow in the field, you don't know who's who until the harvest day.

And you can't see who is keeping God's commandments at home or at work.

Then stop assuming. What's God's commandments? Love the Lord with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. It's a RELATIONSHIP, not regulation. As I said, it's between each individual and God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jews were the first Christians. They are no longer "in" just because they are Jews. They have to be grafted back in by faith.

No, quite the contrary, we the gentiles have to be grafted into the commonwealth of Israel.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The sinner thinks the stuff about the cross us stupid nonsense. Why would he accept stupid nonsense?

Wrong. A snob thinks about the cross as nonsense, a sinner desperately, joyfully, graciously seeks salvation from the cross.

Being born again makes a natural man a spiritual man who no longer thinks the things of God are stupid, and then he can "lay down his sin at the cross and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior."

Christ died for our SINS, 1 Cor. 15:3. The problem for most "natural men" is not that they don't believe in (the existence of) God, but (the existence of) sin. If one can't humble themselves as a sinner in need of salvation, then they can't accept Christ as their savior.

You seem to think that a sinner can break the power of the devil and come to their senses all by their own power and then accept Christ and then God rewards them for this. Something to really boast about.

No I don't. All that I'm saying is that Jesus came for poor spirited sinners, not self-righteous snobs. After all, the healthy don't need a physician, but the sick. You can't break the power of the devil as long as you refuse to admit that you're under the power of the devil.