Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[Fish153]

if Jesus was not subject to the death brought by Adam’s sin it could not be said of him that death no longer has dominion over him when he was raised from the dead to die no more.
The reality is that death did have dominion over him because he was a son of man(Adam).
And the reason he is called son of God speaks to his ability to create the other sons of God who are made so by him through faith.

It is legally just that the inheritance offered include only the sons of God. And that the death of the owner to bequeath the inheritance must come first.

That is man’s system. But in God’s system, He bequeaths the inheritance to not only those who are the surviving relatives but also to the ones who have died.

It’s like the person who owns a large estate and determines that only his sons will inherit that estate.. That when the owner dies, his sons split the inheritance.

But in God’s plan, the one who owns the estate is Himself and He who owns it never dies..
So God’s plan was to make His only son the one whom the inheritance can come. And it would be His only son who was to die so that the inheritance might be obtained by all who are made sons through him.

But God planned it so that His son by whom the inheritance is obtained also be made alive again so that he too might share in the inheritance.

That’s the way Imsee it.

LeviR--- Once again----what was the purpose of the Virgin birth then? Think about it. If Jesus was just like anyone else---a son of Adam---then God would have allowed Joseph to be his physical Father. But Jesus did not have a Physical father (in the biological sense):

“How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God". (Luke 1: 34, 35)

Please take note: The angel says she will bear a son. She asks "How can this be since I am a virgin? (I haven't had sexual relations with a man)?" She is clearly stating that Jesus did not have a PHYSICAL father. Jesus was not seed and sperm in the womb as everyone else is---Jesus was CREATED in the womb by the Holy Spirit. In the Psalms it says "A body has thou prepared for me". Jesus was INCARNATED----he was not born through natural processes. You are greatly mislead if you think Jesus was prone to sin or death---He was NOT.

Jesus says often in the Gospels that HE has the Power to lay down his life when he decides to----what human has that ability? I can lay down my life by commiting suicide---but I can't decide the day or hour I die by just willing it as Jesus could. Jesus said he could "lay down his life and take it up again" if he so chose. Jesus was not subject to death like we are. That is why he came to earth. He was the WORD OF GOD made flesh. He came to live a perfect life and conquer death by willingly laying down his life for us---by taking God's wrath upon himself, and all of our sins! He was not a sinful human---he was the God-man---the "Lamb of God" whom God offered up for us all.

You need to read the true Gospel and rejoice in it's amazing message of Grace!

 

[Dave...]

if Jesus was not subject to the death brought by Adam’s sin it could not be said of him that death no longer has dominion over him when he was raised from the dead to die no more.
The reality is that death did have dominion over him because he was a son of man(Adam).
And the reason he is called son of God speaks to his ability to create the other sons of God who are made so by him through faith.

The death that no longer had dominion over Him was a death that was inflicted on Him. He didn't die because of sin, because there was none. If death was not inflicted on Him, He wouldn't have died. He's the second Adam.

 

[Dave...]

A peculiar way, it seems to me, to define doctrines of grace. But I understand that the Calvinist believes that the more God meticulously ordains everything (i.e He is sovereign) the more gracious He is thought to be - though such ordination means He is the Ultimate Cause of rape, murder, incest, genocide, pedophilia, gluttony, etc. And His salvation is only for an arbitrarily selected few under these doctrines of grace, the majority of folk sovereignly ordained by Him to suffer in hell for all eternity. Yes, the "grace" just oozes from these doctrines...

Tenchi, Can you ever write a post without your straw man please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so tired of you using other posts as a soundboard to play the same bumper sticker slogan over and over and over in every post that you write. Address the post like a man, and you will be treated as such. Until that time, I will continue to pull back the curtain, WIZ, and let the people who don't yet know who you are, that you are just a slander machine who has nothing else to offer but his straw man in the form of a bumper sticker slogan.

God does not need to cause evil. Man does it naturally. That's not hard to understand, is it, WIZ?

This may be my last post. If I'm banned, goodbye everyone.

Dave

 

[Tenchi]

Tenchi, Can you ever write a post without your straw man please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so tired of you using other posts as a soundboard to play the same bumper sticker slogan over and over and over in every post that you write.

You haven't offered anything like a serious counter to this (quite accurate, I think) characterization of the Calvinist God. If you want to demonstrate that I've offered a Strawman, then please do so. But I held to a Calvinist view for more than two decades and understand TULIP quite well and what I've pointed out about what the Calvinist "doctrines of grace" make of God is not at all a Strawman.

If you're tired, then get some rest. I don't write posts, however, based on what does or doesn't make you tired.

Address the post like a man, and you will be treated as such.

You don't get to decide for the rest of us what "posting like a man is." In fact, you've dodged a number of points I've made which seems a bit unmanly to me.

Until that time, I will continue to pull back the curtain, WIZ, and let the people who don't yet know who you are, that you are just a slander machine who has nothing else to offer but his straw man in the form of a bumper sticker slogan.

I'm sure you wish it were this simple and that you actually had the power you describe here. But if a curtain is being pulled back it is on you, not me. Especially if folks visit the sites I offered, they'll see that what you want to consign to a bumper sticker slogan is, in fact, the ugly truth of Calvinist doctrine.

God does not need to cause evil. Man does it naturally. That's not hard to understand, is it, WIZ?

And who ordains Man's nature, on Calvinism? God. See? The ugly truth of Calvinism is there for all to observe. Why won't you see it?

 

[LeviR]

LeviR


Man by nature is dead spiritually, cant do anything of a spiritual nature, required first to be made alive. In his dead condition he doesnt understand or seek after God see Rom 3:11

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

When the context is considered, Paul is making the point of just how far the Jews are from keeping the law.
The law is supposed to convict them of sin. But instead they trust in it as means of salvation.

 

[LeviR]

Don't think so. Why wasn't every other town in the world destroyed by fire and brimstone?

You are addressing this to me, I don't believe that. I was trying to get those who believe that if you haven't heard or learned the law, then you can't be guilty of breaking it.

Sodom and Gomorrah are set as an example. For the Jews, because the Jews are compared with S&G.

 

[miamited]

When the context is considered, Paul is making the point of just how far the Jews are from keeping the law.
The law is supposed to convict them of sin. But instead they trust in it as means of salvation.

Hi LeviR

Yes, and I would add that a lot of christians are like that, too. We spin our wheels trying to get those who aren't born again believers to live by the law. It happens a lot with sexual sin and abortion. Christians will go out and march and make lots of noise telling those who don't know God or His Son that they have to live by the law and not get abortions and not commit sexual sin. Bit all of that is wasted effort if they haven't first trusted in the Lord for their salvation. And then it brings in the conviction of the Holy Spirit to help them know that they shouldn't commit sexual sin or get abortions.

And of course, likely at least 90% of abortions are a result of sexual sin.

 

[brightfame52]

When the context is considered, Paul is making the point of just how far the Jews are from keeping the law.
The law is supposed to convict them of sin. But instead they trust in it as means of salvation.

Dead people aren't convicted of sin, only the living, man is dead to God spiritually, when a persin is regenerated, the Spirit convicts them of sin Jn 16:8

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

The law is spiritual friend Rom 7 14

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Man is dead spiritually by nature

 

[brightfame52]

The death that no longer had dominion over Him was a death that was inflicted on Him. He didn't die because of sin, because there was none. If death was not inflicted on Him, He wouldn't have died. He's the second Adam.

Well He did die because of sin, but not His sin, but the sins of His People/Sheep that was charged/imputed to Him Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

 

[LeviR]

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Mar 9:37
Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me,receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

Jhn 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Jhn 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whosoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jhn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Jhn 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

[LeviR]

Dead people aren't convicted of sin, only the living, man is dead to God spiritually, when a persin is regenerated, the Spirit convicts them of sin Jn 16:8

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

The law is spiritual friend Rom 7 14

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Man is dead spiritually by nature

Again, “spiritually dead” is man’s idea. It’s not taught by scripture. It’s a false doctrine.

 

[LeviR]

Well He did die because of sin, but not His sin, but the sins of His People/Sheep that was charged/imputed to Him Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

One of the text used to support the spiritually dead idea is where Jesus says “Let the dead bury their dead”

Jesus did not say they were spiritually dead.

The Biblical understanding suggests that the ones burying the dead one were headed to the same place the dead one was. Back to the ground where they came from.
Unless they followed Christ. If they follow Christ instead they would be following life and not death.

 

[Fish153]

Again, “spiritually dead” is man’s idea. It’s not taught by scripture. It’s a false doctrine.

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, MADE US ALIVE with Christ even when we were DEAD IN TRANSGRESSIONS—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus," (Eph.2: 4-5).

Sounds very clear to me. I was a "child of wrath" until God saved me and GAVE ME NEW LIFE. I was spiritually dead---I couldn't understand the things of God (See 1 Cor. 2). God MADE ME ALIVE and RAISED ME UP and seated me in Heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

No---"spiritually dead" is not man's idea---it is MAN'S STATE---until God gives us new life. It IS taught by Scripture very clearly. You just refuse to accept it. It is only false doctrine to those who refuse to see.

 

[LeviR]

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, MADE US ALIVE with Christ even when we were DEAD IN TRANSGRESSIONS—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus," (Eph.2: 4-5).

Sounds very clear to me. I was a "child of wrath" until God saved me and GAVE ME NEW LIFE. I was spiritually dead---I couldn't understand the things of God (See 1 Cor. 2). God MADE ME ALIVE and RAISED ME UP and seated me in Heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

No---"spiritually dead" is not man's idea---it is MAN'S STATE---until God gives us new life. It IS taught by Scripture very clearly. You just refuse to accept it. It is only false doctrine to those who refuse to see.

The wages of sin is not spiritual death. It’s dead death. Dead like, From dust you are and to dust you shall return , that kind of dead.

In Christ, we are made alive. We are no longer under condemnation in Adam.

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Whatever]

Sodom and Gomorrah are set as an example. For the Jews

Nah!

2 Peter 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

I like the New English Translation:
6 and if he turned to ashes the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah when he condemned them to destruction, having appointed them to serve as an example to future generations of the ungodly

Rom 15:4 For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

Who was Paul writing to in Romans? "To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints."
Below Paul shows it was all for New Covenant People.

1 Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

 

[Fish153]

The wages of sin is not spiritual death. It’s dead death. Dead like, From dust you are and to dust you shall return , that kind of dead.

In Christ, we are made alive. We are no longer under condemnation in Adam.

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

LeviR--- That is YOUR interpretation. Spiritual death is very real. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoseover believes in him should not PERISH, but have everlasting life". Everlasting life is not physical existence----it is spiritual existence.
If one is DEAD spiritually they will PERISH eternally. Jesus died so that we could be "BORN AGAIN".

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3: 5,6)

The SPIRITUALLY DEAD cannot enter the Kingdom of God any more than the PHYSICALLY DEAD can. We must be "born-again"---we must be "raised from the dead" spiritually: "If ye then be RISEN with Christ seek those things which are above where Christ sits at the right hand of God.. (Col. 3:1).

You are arguing against a teaching that is clearly revealed in Scripture. We are all SPIRITUALLY DEAD until God causes us to be Born Again in the Spirit.

 

[brightfame52]

Again, “spiritually dead” is man’s idea. It’s not taught by scripture. It’s a false doctrine.

Yes it is in scripture, you just cant see it.

 

[brightfame52]

One of the text used to support the spiritually dead idea is where Jesus says “Let the dead bury their dead”

Jesus did not say they were spiritually dead.

The Biblical understanding suggests that the ones burying the dead one were headed to the same place the dead one was. Back to the ground where they came from.
Unless they followed Christ. If they follow Christ instead they would be following life and not death.

Well He did die because of sin, but not His sin, but the sins of His People/Sheep that was charged/imputed to Him Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

 

[LeviR]

Yes it is in scripture, you just cant see it.

I’ll be the first to admit my eye sight is not what it used to be. Thanks to the nature I was created with. But it’s not my own fault, it’s my misfortune. I never asked to be a son of man.

I don’t read anywhere the words “spiritually dead “ so it caused me to pause. What I discovered is that man is like those who have been condemned with a death sentence. Called a capital sentence or capital punishment. It’s when the men on death row are considered dead men walking.

 

[electedbyHim]

What does it mean to be spiritually dead?​

To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God. When Adam sinned in Genesis 3:6, he ushered in death for all humanity. God’s command to Adam and Eve was that they could not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It came with the warning that disobedience would result in death: “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, ‘You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.’” The phrase “you shall surely die” could be literally translated “dying you shall die.” This signifies a continuous state of death that began with spiritual death, continues throughout life as a gradual degradation of the body, and culminates in physical death. The immediate spiritual death resulted in Adam’s separation from God. His act of hiding from God (Genesis 3:8) demonstrates this separation, as does his attempt to shift blame for the sin to the woman (Genesis 3:12).

Unfortunately, this spiritual – and eventual physical – death was not confined to Adam and Eve. As the representative of the human race, Adam carried all of humanity into his sin. Paul makes this clear in Romans 5:12, telling us that sin and death entered the world and spread to all men through Adam’s sin. Additionally, Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death; sinners must die, because sin separates us from God. Any separation from the Source of Life is, naturally, death for us.

But it is not just inherited sin that causes spiritual death; our own sinfulness contributes. Ephesians 2 teaches that, before salvation, we are “dead” in trespasses and sins (verse 1). This must speak of spiritual death, because we were still “alive” physically before salvation. While we were in that spiritually “dead” condition, God saved us (verse 5; see also Romans 5:8). Colossians 2:13 reiterates this truth: “And you, who were dead in your trespasses . . . God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses.”

Since we are dead in sin, we are completely unable to trust God or His Word. Jesus repeatedly claims that we are powerless without Him (John 15:5) and that we cannot come to Him without God’s enabling (John 6:44). Paul teaches in Romans 8 that our natural minds cannot submit to God, nor please Him (verses 7-8). In our fallen state, we are incapable of even understanding the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14).

The act of God whereby He makes us alive from spiritual death is called regeneration. Regeneration is accomplished only by the Holy Spirit, through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When we are regenerated, we are made alive together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5) and renewed by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). It is like being born a second time, as Jesus taught Nicodemus in John 3:3, 7. Having been made alive by God, we will never truly die – we have eternal life. Jesus said often that to believe in Him is to have eternal life (John 3:16, 36; 17:3).

Sin leads to death. The only way to escape that death is to come to Jesus through faith, drawn by the Holy Spirit. Faith in Christ leads to spiritual life, and ultimately to eternal life.

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