buying and selling

[jasonc]

IMO the buying and selling reserved for those with the mark refers to the effects of the whoredom of the Jewish leadership(second beast) in the late AD60's with the motivations and values of the pagan Roman Empire(first beast). In order to take part in the commercialized Jewish temple worship(buying and selling) their followers were required by a corrupted leadership to assume the thinking or actions(marked forehead or hand) of the pagan Roman beast, even though they still referred to themselves as God's People. In other words, by the time Jerusalem fell there was no longer any significant difference between the Jews and Gentiles in terms of actions and beliefs. This mirrors God's condemnation of Jerusalem's polytheists prior to its destruction at the hand of the Babylonians over 600yrs earlier.

How can this relate to us? Beware of religious leadership motivated by worldly power or wealth, for God will excise it to deliver His Body from corruption.

most Hebraic in thinking. the marks of forehead and the hands aren't literal but a statement of how sin is in the mind and shows in the right hand.

 

[digging]

If the shoe fits wear it.

Patterns it's all about patterns, past, present & future.

D

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes Jethro the two passages are not directly related, they are not talking about the same exact things being bought but the essences of how the 'buying' is being used to symbolize something else is the connection that I'm seeing.

I'm glad you can also see how the 'currency' is connected as a symbol of interaction with the world.

Digging

most Hebraic in thinking. the marks of forehead and the hands aren't literal but a statement of how sin is in the mind and shows in the right hand.

Beliefs and actions that will decide whether you are allowed to engage in what I see in Revelation to be literal buying and selling. Just as the beheading for not adopting the mark, the beliefs and actions of the world, is, IMO, quite literal.

 

[jasonc]

Beliefs and actions that will decide whether you are allowed to engage in what I see in Revelation to be literal buying and selling. Just as the beheading for not adopting the mark, the beliefs and actions of the world, is, IMO, quite literal.

i see that as past. both young and an old. ok a five year old cant buy candy or a soda or say 12 year old? i was that age when i walked to stores and bought candy. therefore kids will have to be damned then. that is why i don't take that like that. roman culture in the days of paul didn't have marks for that. they did have a system where one had to be a pagan in their guilds to go far. that is what the Ephesus riot was about. Christians hurting that guild.

 

[digging]

Oh I clearly understand the range of the common views about this mark, my inner spiritual self just was not satisfied, it just kept seeming to me there were stronger symbolic meanings here .
Has anyone seen it mentioned some where else, this connection to of the exchanging of 'doctrinal' information as the buying and selling? If you every do please let me know I'd be interested in seeing how they put it all together!

Digging

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...the exchanging of 'doctrinal' information as the buying and selling...

If buying and selling is the dissemination of false doctrine, what I don't get is how Christians can't exchange this doctrinal information as opposed to not doing it simply because they choose not to.

"...no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark..." (Revelation 13:17 NASB)

"...and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed." (Revelation 13:15 NASB)

At this point, I can't help but to see this as meaning Christians are locked out on purpose by the beast for not adopting the beliefs and actions of the world's religious dogmas, and will be put to death as a result. But I'm open to a more spiritual, non-literal interpretation.

 

[ezrider]

If buying and selling is the dissemination of false doctrine, what I don't get is how Christians can't exchange this doctrinal information as opposed to not doing it simply because they choose not to.

"...no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark..." (Revelation 13:17 NASB)

"...and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed." (Revelation 13:15 NASB)

At this point, I can't help but to see this as meaning Christians are locked out on purpose by the beast for not adopting the beliefs and actions of the world's religious dogmas, and will be put to death as a result. But I'm open to a more spiritual, non-literal interpretation.

Why is it the assumption all the time that it is the so called Christians who are locked out by the beast? When you hold steadfast to that belief, you remain blind to the true nature of the beast, and that you worship his image. But the beast is Christianity, marked by the death of Christ. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if you look at the church history from the inquisition, to the crusades, to manifest destiny, you will see a people who crushed those in their path except they swear allegiance to Christ, and worship the image of his cross. If they did not, they were often literally killed. Is it so different today. I need not delve into the so called culture wars supported by our political classes, but what is it you see when the state of Arizona tries to pass laws in the name of religious freedom so that they may legally discriminate against those who do not conform to their religious beliefs?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why is it the assumption all the time that it is the so called Christians who are locked out by the beast?

Maybe because I'm a Christian and I will not worship the beast, and that the matter of the beasts is addressed to God's people, Christians, with the exhortation to stay faithful to the end?

 

[jasonc]

the beast is both the rcc, orthodox variants and protestant myriads?

okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. so what bible do we read from and use since the reformers didn't just say well nice things about those that sinned and some they had executed for criminal acts of witchcraft, gay acts, adultery.

 

[ezrider]

Maybe because I'm a Christian and I will not worship the beast, and that the matter of the beasts is addressed to God's people, Christians, with the exhortation to stay faithful to the end?

And what is the image of the beast that you will not worship?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And what is the image of the beast that you will not worship?

When it gets here I'll let you know.

Presently I'm of the belief that the beast (the beast out of the sea, not the land) is represented in the kingdoms of the world and their leader(s) and economies and spiritual beliefs that have been ordained to rise and fall on this planet.

If my escatological memory serves me correctly we're seven kings and counting and waiting for the eighth--the beast out of the sea. My personal opinion is Hitler was the seventh king. And America will be the beast out of the earth. He is the beast that enforces the agenda of the beast out of the sea, the kingdom of the anti-christ, forcing small and great alike to sign up for Obamacare....I mean....serve with hand, and worship with mind, the beast out of the sea.

 

[ezrider]

When it gets here I'll let you know.

Presently I'm of the belief that the beast (the beast out of the sea, not the land) is represented in the kingdoms of the world and their leader(s) and economies and spiritual beliefs that have been ordained to rise and fall on this planet.

If my escatological memory serves me correctly we're seven kings and counting and waiting for the eighth--the beast out of the sea. My personal opinion is Hitler was the seventh king. And America will be the beast out of the earth. He is the beast that enforces the agenda of the beast out of the sea, the kingdom of the anti-christ, forcing small and great alike to sign up for Obamacare....I mean....serve with hand, and worship with mind, the beast out of the sea.

"When it gets here I'll let you know." If you can only know it when you see it, then how do you know you are not already worshiping the image of the Beast, because you do not see it?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"When it gets here I'll let you know." If you can only know it when you see it, then how do you know you are not already worshiping the image of the Beast, because you do not see it?

I thought you'd glean that out of what I said.

The eighth king has not appeared yet. And this has not happened that I'm aware of:

"15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed." (Revelation 13:15 NASB)


Besides, those who worship the beast and take the marks are lost with no opportunity for redemption. I presently have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of me. Simple logic says I have not worshiped the beast.

 

[digging]

If buying and selling is the dissemination of false doctrine, what I don't get is how Christians can't exchange this doctrinal information as opposed to not doing it simply because they choose not to.

"...no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark..." (Revelation 13:17 NASB)

"...and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed." (Revelation 13:15 NASB)

At this point, I can't help but to see this as meaning Christians are locked out on purpose by the beast for not adopting the beliefs and actions of the world's religious dogmas, and will be put to death as a result. But I'm open to a more spiritual, non-literal interpretation.

Jethro,

Often how I see things is that both a physical and a spiritual meaning happening at the same time. The physical actions are the result of the spiritual actions. Yes true believers find themselves locked out but rather like a type of prejudism and this type of hate has a wide range between great violent to simple exclusion. The main thing is the creation of a cultural system to control the hearts and minds of humanity with the goal of keeping/discriminating against the true message of the freedom in Christ. Thus yes often through the ages Christians have been out right killed to keep them quite, but let's not only focus of literal physical death. The work of a Christian can also be 'killed' if they can't communicate/convert anyone. It's all about the 'word'.

Digging

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,

Often how I see things is that both a physical and a spiritual meaning happening at the same time. The physical actions are the result of the spiritual actions. Yes true believers find themselves locked out but rather like a type of prejudism and this type of hate has a wide range between great violent to simple exclusion. The main thing is the creation of a cultural system to control the hearts and minds of humanity with the goal of keeping/discriminating against the true message of the freedom in Christ. Thus yes often through the ages Christians have been out right killed to keep them quite, but let's not only focus of literal physical death. The work of a Christian can also be 'killed' if they can't communicate/convert anyone. It's all about the 'word'.

Digging

Then what you're saying is Christians, because of their beliefs and rejection of the world's ways/ideas, will be excluded from marketing their ideas on the world's stock exchange of ideas. A suppression of expression (sounds like a rap song).

I'll have to consider how 'death' plays into this a little more.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have no problem with the concept of 'the truth being cast down to the ground' in the end-times. It'll just take me a bit to make a legitimate connection between that and the marketplace of 'buying and selling' of Revelation.

 

[digging]

Why is it the assumption all the time that it is the so called Christians who are locked out by the beast? When you hold steadfast to that belief, you remain blind to the true nature of the beast, and that you worship his image. But the beast is Christianity, marked by the death of Christ. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if you look at the church history from the inquisition, to the crusades, to manifest destiny, you will see a people who crushed those in their path except they swear allegiance to Christ, and worship the image of his cross. If they did not, they were often literally killed. Is it so different today. I need not delve into the so called culture wars supported by our political classes, but what is it you see when the state of Arizona tries to pass laws in the name of religious freedom so that they may legally discriminate against those who do not conform to their religious beliefs?

Hello Ezrider,

You have an interesting way of describing how you see things. I'm seeing it in a very similar way however I don't see the beast as Christianity,
but rather FALSE Christianity. I think with the language you use it's making it a little harder for some to get the sense of your illustration.

Notice what Jesus said in

Matthew 24:24 NAS
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:22 NAS
for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Rev 13:13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth

Notice how he mentions TWO, a team effort, the false christs with the false prophets. I see a very strong connect back to the the two horned lamb like beast as the false Christ, and the image of the beast as the false prophet/prophetess.

Digging

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Notice how he mentions TWO a team effort, the false christs with the false prophets. I see a very strong connect back to the the two horned lamb like beast as the false Christ and the image of the beast as the false prophet.

Digging

Read Revelation 13 and Revelation 19:20 carefully and I think you'll see the false prophet is the two horned lamb. Which is the beast that causes all to worship the first beast--commonly understood to be the anti-christ--by instructing the world to erect an image to that beast.

 

[ezrider]

I have no problem with the concept of 'the truth being cast down to the ground' in the end-times. It'll just take me a bit to make a legitimate connection between that and the marketplace of 'buying and selling' of Revelation.

As I posted earlier in this thread, I think the more significant understanding of the buying and selling as it relates to the beast and how it pertains to death is by the picture of a man who continues to lay his sins at the death of Christ; where instead of accepting the promises of the Lord, finds himself in a place where he tries to purchase the forgiveness of the Lord by selling his works in exchange by trying to be more obedient to the law in the flesh.

 

[ezrider]

Hello Ezrider,

You have an interesting way of describing how you see things. I'm seeing it in a very similar way however I don't see the beast as Christianity,
but rather FALSE Christianity. I think with the language you use it's making it a little harder for some to get the sense of your illustration.

Notice what Jesus said in

Matthew 24:24 NAS
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:22 NAS
for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Rev 13:13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth

Notice how he mentions TWO, a team effort, the false christs with the false prophets. I see a very strong connect back to the the two horned lamb like beast as the false Christ, and the image of the beast as the false prophet/prophetess.

Digging

With the scriptures you have posted, I am reminded of the time when Jesus and the disciples were not accepted in a certain town, and the disciples asked if they should call down fire from heaven as Elijah did, and Jesus chastised them, saying: know you not what Spirit you are of?