buying and selling

[agua.]

We are seeing the two witnesses in a very similar way Deborah, I see the two witnesses as the embodiment of all the believers first from the OT and then from the NT who's stories of faith are recorder in the scriptures that showed they truly believed in the promised Messiah, OT believed he would come, NT believed he did come and both gave witness to this promise.

I understand there is a range of time line perceptions for these events mentioned in Revelation and I respect that very much. Thus so others here can understand me better I'd like to explain how it makes sense to me.

10 ......... "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus ; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days..... 7 When they have finished their testimony,

Daniel 9:27 NAS
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering

Daniel 4:16 NAS
"Let his mind be changed from that of a man And let a beast's mind be given to him, And let seven periods of time pass over him.

OK, for myself I see one great huge week beginning with the fall of Adam and ending with the signs of Christs return. To me this is symbolized by the seven periods, and Jesus life and death on earth marked the half or middle of this week. So then I also see the 3.5, 42, 1260 as symbols for each half of this great week on either side of the time of Jesus.

I agree there is a pattern here with the two witnesses and the resurrection of Christ, but I feel pretty strongly that the locking away of scriptures for 100's of years as very serious thing that greatly impeded spiritual life on earth. Just like the devil could not keep Jesus dead the same is true of faith in him. After Christ left the devil tried to kill completely both physically and spiritually the body of faith. Which I feel is symbolized with the death of the two witnesses but this time the death is really very long in real time, but no matter a resurrection can not be stopped, first the spirit of life from God begins to enter into the earth again through the scriptures.

11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet,

I see that as spiritual revival through the releasing of the scriptures out of bondage of the past.

12 And they heard aloud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud,

This last part I see as the beginning of the complete restoration as promised to the righteous.

Digging

We are seeing the two witnesses in a very similar way Deborah, I see the two witnesses as the embodiment of all the believers first from the OT and then from the NT who's stories of faith are recorder in the scriptures that showed they truly believed in the promised Messiah, OT believed he would come, NT believed he did come and both gave witness to this promise.

This is interesting. If we look at Romans 11 we see 2 types of Olive trees which represent the Gentile and the Jew.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is interesting. If we look at Romans 11 we see 2 types of Olive trees which represent the Gentile and the Jew.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

4. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire."

(Revelation 11:4-6 NASB)

 

[Randy]

Rev 13 to me will take place in future years from today after Rev 11 has been completed (1260 days of testimony) for then the angel of the abyss and his false prophet are in the world. Rev 11:7 Released at the appointed time. (sounding of the 5th trump) It is that beast who kills the 2 witnesses who serve the Lord of all the earth after their testimony has been completed.

And its more then just buying and selling. Those that lose their lives by remaining faithful to Christ Jesus will live. Those that save their lives by worshipping the beast and receiving the mark of the beast will die the 2nd death. (Rev 14)

Rev 13:15 (Many in those days who fear God and remain faithful to Christ Jesus will be murdered in the beasts reign)
The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed

Rev 14:9-12
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its imageand receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Also yet to take place is the future Babylon which is destroyed by the beast and his armies. The beast has ten horns that align with him. To me babylon will be where it also has been in the region of the land of shinar. And I currently can see a commodity in that region that is more and more desired by the nations and brings great wealth. [oil]

Zech 5
The Woman in a Basket
5 Then the angel who was speaking to me came forward and said to me, “Look up and see what is appearing.”

6 I asked, “What is it?”

He replied, “It is a basket.” And he added, “This is the iniquity [or appearance] of the people throughout the land.”

7 Then the cover of lead was raised, and there in the basket sat a woman! 8 He said, “This is wickedness,” and he pushed her back into the basket and pushed its lead cover down on it.

9 Then I looked up—and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth.

10 “Where are they taking the basket?” I asked the angel who was speaking to me.

11 He replied, “To the country of Babylonia [shinar] to build a house for it. When the house is ready, the basket will be set there in its place.”

 

[agua.]

4. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire."

(Revelation 11:4-6 NASB)

Yeah Jethro I was hypothesizing that the 2 olive trees are the Jews and Gentile believers.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yeah Jethro I was hypothesizing that the 2 olive trees are the Jews and Gentile believers.

Wow! I didn't know the church was that awesome (reread the passages I posted if you're confused).

I'll remember that next time someone tries to oppose me in the Theology folder, lol.

 

[agua.]

Wow! I didn't know the church was that awesome (reread the passages I posted if you're confused).

I'll remember that next time someone tries to oppose me in the Theology folder, lol.

Yes remember :D

 

[Deborah13]

This is interesting. If we look at Romans 11 we see 2 types of Olive trees which represent the Gentile and the Jew.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

This is interesting. If we look at Romans 11 we see 2 types of Olive trees which represent the Gentile and the Jew.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Who or what is the good olive tree?
How could natural branches be cut off?
How can they be restored?

If natural branches were cut off, how can it be the natural genetic nation of Israel? One cannot change their genetics. They are a part of natural Israel no matter what. This is what the Jews were arguing with Paul about.
Paul said,
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

What does this say to you keeping in mind the Olive Tree?

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

 

[jasonc]

I hope you include the zechariah chapter on the two olive trees.

 

[Deborah13]

I hope you include the zechariah chapter on the two olive trees.

Are you talking to ME !
You understand more of Zechariah than I do.

 

[Deborah13]

jasonc Ok I will take a stab at this and chance being very wrong.

Both of the olive trees in Zech. are good olive trees. They are on each side of the candlestick. They give their oil (Heb. sons of oil) to the candlestick. I am assuming this is the oil of gladness.
The candlestick is the Body of Christ, shining His light into the world. The trees represent the Jew and the Greek, one in the Body of Christ.

lol, while I was searching the word for some kind of help, I read a scripture in Haggai that made me think of the story of the three little pigs..

 

[agua.]

Who or what is the good olive tree?

The believing descendents of Abraham. ie. believing Patriarchs and Jews as per Romans 2:28,29 including the remnant.

How could natural branches be cut off?

The Jew is the natural branch broken off because of unbelief. Remember this is also speaking corporately about all Jews not only the individual.

Rom 11:20 KJV Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

How can they be restored?

Today there are many unbelieving Jews who can be restored by accepting Jesus. The can be graffed back into their Olive Tree through belief and there's especially the time shortly after Jesus returns as per Romans 11: 26 where believing Jew will remain while the unbelieving will be removed. This is directly after the tribulation period and it shows how "all Israel" will be saved ie. only the believing portion will remain.

If natural branches were cut off, how can it be the natural genetic nation of Israel? One cannot change their genetics. They are a part of natural Israel no matter what. This is what the Jews were arguing with Paul about.both Jew and Gentile into His Kingdom and it's talking about Jew and Gentile as nations of which individuals can be excluded or included into the Kingdom as per faith.

Cut off isn't about being removed from the nation of Israel it's about salvation. The whole passage is about Yahweh's method of bringing both believing Jew and Gentile into His Kingdom and about Jew and Gentile as nations of which individuals can be included or excluded as per faith. Especially it covers Paul telling the Gentile not to boast against the unbelieving Jew because they are the natural branches whereas the Gentile is "wild".

Who do you suggest the natural branches are ?

Paul said,
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

What does this say to you keeping in mind the Olive Tree?

Paul is saying only a true Jew is Israel similar as in Romans 2. It fits with the Olive Tree being the believing portion of Abraham's descendents. What does it say to you ?

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Yes only a remnant of Israel will ultimately accept Jesus and be saved.

 

[agua.]

jasonc Ok I will take a stab at this and chance being very wrong.

Both of the olive trees in Zech. are good olive trees. They are on each side of the candlestick. They give their oil (Heb. sons of oil) to the candlestick. I am assuming this is the oil of gladness.
The candlestick is the Body of Christ, shining His light into the world. The trees represent the Jew and the Greek, one in the Body of Christ.

lol, while I was searching the word for some kind of help, I read a scripture in Haggai that made me think of the story of the three little pigs..

The trees represent the Jew and the Greek, one in the Body of Christ.

:biggrin Watch out for Chigurh !

Call it heads !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

:biggrin Watch out for Chigurh !

Call it heads !

I sometimes wish this was an accurate description of the church:

4. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire."

(Revelation 11:4-6 NASB)

[...Chigurh checking bottom of his shoes...]

 

[Deborah13]

The believing descendents of Abraham. ie. believing Patriarchs and Jews as per Romans 2:28,29 including the remnant.

I believe the ones you mention are branches on the good Olive Tree that were not cutoff or grafted back in when they believed. Those righteous by faith/grace before and after the cross.

The Jew is the natural branch broken off because of unbelief. Remember this is also speaking corporately about all Jews not only the individual.

I'm not sure what you mean "speaking corporately about all Jews"?

Rom 11:20 KJV Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Today there are many unbelieving Jews who can be restored by accepting Jesus. They can be graffed back into their Olive Tree through belief and there's especially the time shortly after Jesus returns as per Romans 11: 26 where believing Jew will remain while the unbelieving will be removed. This is directly after the tribulation period and it shows how "all Israel" will be saved ie. only the believing portion will remain.

The natural nation of Israel, consists of 12 tribes through Jacob by his sons.
But Paul says that all of those in Christ, the one Seed, are the seed of Abraham. So some of the branches that remain on this Olive Tree are both natural branches are of the 12 tribes and Abraham, while others, Gentiles, are just branches grafted into Abraham's seed by adoption. But in both cases, the only reason they are on this Tree is because they are in Christ, the one Seed.
So I see two very distinct Israels. The physical nation of Israel, descendents of the 12 tribes and the spiritual Israel, all those in Christ. The reason they are called the natural branches is because of their natural relationship to Abraham not because they are of the 12 tribes. Abraham was a Hebrew but not an Israelite.
Remember when Jesus said that if Abraham were truly their father they would believe in Him. That is the distinction.

Cut off isn't about being removed from the nation of Israel it's about salvation. The whole passage is about Yahweh's method of bringing both believing Jew and Gentile into His Kingdom and about Jew and Gentile as nations of which individuals can be included or excluded as per faith. Especially it covers Paul telling the Gentile not to boast against the unbelieving Jew because they are the natural branches whereas the Gentile is "wild".

Who do you suggest the natural branches are ?

The both natural seed of Abraham. Isaac was a natural seed of Abraham but not an Israelite, of the 12 tribes. Remember where it says, through Isaac.....

Paul is saying only a true Jew is Israel similar as in Romans 2. It fits with the Olive Tree being the believing portion of Abraham's descendents. What does it say to you ?

Very good point and you may be correct about that. I don't have a set definite picture in my mind. I rather think of Messiah as the root of the Tree and Abraham the Tree, but you may be correct that the Tree consists of all those in faith before the cross.

Yes only a remnant of Israel will ultimately accept Jesus and be saved.

Well I certainly believe God is not done with the Hebrew (Jewish) people. His promises of spiritual blessings to them still stand, promises made through Abraham, Isacc, Jacob....that when they turn from the transgression in Jacob (Israel, as in the 12 tribes as a nation) they will be restored. I believe this is an individual restoration. This has been going on all along but I do believe there will a great revival, if you will. The Gospel message will be heard and received by many, many Jews. But to say I know how this will happen, I cannot, it would be to assume too much, as the word is not totally clear.

I do not believe that the nation restored in a day is the State of Israel. All of that is about a physical land, not a spiritual one.

 

[Sinthesis]

I sometimes wish this was an accurate description of the church:
4. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire."

(Revelation 11:4-6 NASB)

[...Chigurh checking bottom of his shoes...]

Those verses are in part a description of the church. The reason it isn't so blatantly obvious is because as Christians we have for the most part taken the lesson of Luke 9:53-56 to heart though the Holy Spirit.

 

[agua.]

Well I certainly believe God is not done with the Hebrew (Jewish) people. His promises of spiritual blessings to them still stand, promises made through Abraham, Isacc, Jacob....that when they turn from the transgression in Jacob (Israel, as in the 12 tribes as a nation) they will be restored. I believe this is an individual restoration. This has been going on all along but I do believe there will a great revival, if you will. The Gospel message will be heard and received by many, many Jews. But to say I know how this will happen, I cannot, it would be to assume too much, as the word is not totally clear.

I do not believe that the nation restored in a day is the State of Israel. All of that is about a physical land, not a spiritual one.

I haven't got time to respond to your whole post before work Deb but this part is especially interesting considering Romans 11:25-26.

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Do you accept after the time when the full amount of Gentiles are graffed in that Jesus will return to Israel ( Jerusalem ) and if not what does this passage mean to you ?

 

[agua.]

I sometimes wish this was an accurate description of the church:
4. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire."

(Revelation 11:4-6 NASB)

[...Chigurh checking bottom of his shoes...]

Yes a Christian could never perform a miracle. * writes in the dust *

 

[jasonc]

I haven't got time to respond to your whole post before work Deb but this part is especially interesting considering Romans 11:25-26.

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Do you accept after the time when the full amount of Gentiles are graffed in that Jesus will return to Israel ( Jerusalem ) and if not what does this passage mean to you ?

I believe that is happening. any time a Hebrew like me or my kin are saved that is being done. per your doctrine.we saved jews don't count. odd isn't that what the new promise to isreal was for? and first?

 

[Deborah13]

I haven't got time to respond to your whole post before work Deb but this part is especially interesting considering Romans 11:25-26.

Rom 11:25-26 KJV For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Do you accept after the time when the full amount of Gentiles are graffed in that Jesus will return to Israel ( Jerusalem ) and if not what does this passage mean to you ?

KJV
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Redeemer of Jacob already came. Each one individually when they are drawn can choose to open their eyes and hear with their ears. Hear the Gospel of Christ. This is what the Apostles proclaimed to them first. Some received some did not. Those who chose not to hear Him, the Lord hardened (blinded). Why haven't more come as yet? I believe...

YLT
2Co 3:12 Having, then, such hope, we use much freedom of speech,
2Co 3:13 and are not as Moses, who was putting a vail upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,
2Co 3:14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same vail at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn--which in Christ is being made useless--
2Co 3:15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a vail upon their heart doth lie,
2Co 3:16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the vail is taken away.

Remember how the Bereans searched the scripture to see if what Paul told them was true. They were searching the OT scriptures. They sought truth and their eyes were opened and their ears could hear and believe the Gospel that Paul preached. The Apostles used the OT scriptures a lot; that could only have been for the Jews in the crowd. Any Jew could be like a Berean Jew.

Just what I believe, now.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes a Christian could never perform a miracle. * writes in the dust *

It's impossible to characterize the church by the portions of the Revelation 11 passage under discussion that I posted. Impossible.

We are hardly, on the whole, known for what the two lampstands and the two olive trees are doing in Revelation 11:4-6 NIV.