buying and selling

[digging]

Then what you're saying is Christians, because of their beliefs and rejection of the world's ways/ideas, will be excluded from marketing their ideas on the world's stock exchange of ideas. A suppression of expression (sounds like a rap song).

I'll have to consider how 'death' plays into this a little more.

Yes Jethro!

A suppression of expression, very well said.

Let's go back to the event in the temple when Jesus drove out the money changers and those buying and selling.

12 And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13 And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER '; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN." 14 And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.

Once again two things happening both physical and spiritual. Not only were the Jews allowing the people to be stolen from in a material way they also has allowed the 'gold of truth' to be stolen from the people right inside the Temple. This is where they were to receive and speak the holy words of God "CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER" but rather it had been turned into a Robber's Den of FALSEHOODS, truth has been stolen!!!

Now let's connect this back to the vs in Rev.

Revelation 3:18 NAS
I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed ; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

I believe through this vs Jesus is giving us the deeper meaning, explaining the symbolism.

We can only receive the pure truths from God through relationship with Christ, there is NO other arrangement on earth, everyone who tried to get in between the believer and Jesus is a 'thief' or a 'false prophet'. To cleans the Temple is to cleans the mind and heart of the believer and then we can be healed, washed of the mark. We become 'dead' to the world as we come alive in Christ. The more we understand the more we cease to support the systems of the false christ and false prophet, and the spirit of God and flow more and more to us.

Ezekiel 37:4 NAS
Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.'

Digging

 

[digging]

As I posted earlier in this thread, I think the more significant understanding of the buying and selling as it relates to the beast and how it pertains to death is by the picture of a man who continues to lay his sins at the death of Christ; where instead of accepting the promises of the Lord, finds himself in a place where he tries to purchase the forgiveness of the Lord by selling his works in exchange by trying to be more obedient to the law in the flesh.

Yes Ezrider,

I see what you are explaining as one example of how a 'false understand' is sold to the people, they believe/buy it and bring it into their personal perception of spiritual reality. Different lies have worked on different people all through the ages. What you have explained is one of many, many false beliefs that humanity has been sold through the construct of civilization/empire and institution religion.

Digging

 

[digging]

digging, I believe the buying and selling can refer to many different levels. In the spiritual sense, the thought I shared about the man trying to buy forgiveness of the Lord by selling in return his obedience to the law of sin in the flesh has become clearer in my mind, and really is quite profound in many aspects. It is interesting how you chose the scriptures about Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers, because the money changers were selling a sacrifice to the people so that they might purchase the mercy of the Lord for their transgressions, giving appearance to remaining obedient before the law.

But you are correct, there is also a physical manifestation that is tangible to our natural understanding. While I have not given this aspect much thought, I believe you and agua. are correct in referencing a currency of ideas and thought. And I think it becomes apparent when we look at ourselves. A Protestant does not listen to a Catholic because they are bound to ritual. The Methodist, the Baptist, the AoG, the JW's and the Mormons all believe their own doctrine. And they all believe themselves to be correct, and then claim the rest are worshiping a different Jesus. And if you buy what they are selling, and you bring that doctrine into this church, you may just be asked to leave. Every body is confined within their denomination, and each in his own way is comforted knowing that Jesus died for their sins. If you look into the world of our political discourse, you know that we are politically a divided country. But if you spend any time browsing the Current Events forum here, it is evident that while most of those commenting claim to be Christian, their minds are truly closed off to anything but their own ideology. If I was to reference MSNBC as documentation to an assertion, It would be rejected out of hand because in their mind it is liberal, and therefore evil, and not to be heard. Even on this very website, people will respond to you differently depending on how you have declared yourself in your profile: Are you a Christian, yes or no?

So what is it that the world see's when someone calls themselves a Christian? And how does the beast define someone who calls themselves a Christian? I would tell you its the cross. We ourselves, the church, and the world in general accept the idea that anyone who believes that Christ died in their behalf for the forgiveness of their sins is pretty much classified as a Christian. And so the world see's a Christian as someone who worships the death of Christ.

You mentioned one of my earlier comments that those who are in the Lamb's book of life have perfect liberty to buy and sell as they please. I may not have fully understood it myself when I typed it, but in this context it makes perfect sense. Those who are in Christ, and he in them follow after the Spirit. They have been set free from the bondage that comes from obedience to sin, and they being dead with Christ have overcome death with him. They are not constrained by a denominational creed or by the doctrines of men. They do not fear another mans thoughts because they do not agree with his own, they will consider the proposition and then let their Spirit weight the matter. By Faith, they have bought of them the gold refined in the fire, they trust in the Lord and listen to his Spirit. By Grace, they bear in themselves the fruits of the Living Christ. But they are free to buy and sell as they please because the Beast only see's the death of Christ, and so do they remain hidden in Christ. The world worships the image of the death of Christ, while the Beast promises his future return. But the scripture tells us whosoever confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God, and that is the Spirit of antichrist; He who confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God. The Spirit of Christ dwells with man, and he has come into our flesh, that we might be formed in his image.

1 John 4:4-6 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Dear Ezrider,

I must say this is the first time I've seen these vs's read from that perspective, very very interesting.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God : every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God ; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God ; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

I understand how this is a possible meaning however the challenge is to find a few other scriptures that could compliment this view. Since what you are saying is a very powerful suggestion. I have only seen this vs used to refer to Jesus having really lived as a human.

I would like to comment also on the word 'antichrist' made of two words #473=instead of and #5547 = anointed.

Definition strong's # 473

1. over against, opposite to, before
2. for, instead of, in place of (something)
   1. instead of

 

[digging]

Read Revelation 13 and Revelation 19:20 carefully and I think you'll see the false prophet is the two horned lamb. Which is the beast that causes all to worship the first beast--commonly understood to be the anti-christ--by instructing the world to erect an image to that beast.

Right, your right I agree about the vs in Rev 19, but I still do see the two horned lamb beast as a mocking copy of Jesus which still can fit if you consider Jesus was also the great promised prophet.

Deuteronomy 18:15 NAS
"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

Digging

 

[digging]

Then what you're saying is Christians, because of their beliefs and rejection of the world's ways/ideas, will be excluded from marketing their ideas on the world's stock exchange of ideas. A suppression of expression (sounds like a rap song).

I'll have to consider how 'death' plays into this a little more.

Just a quick comment first. I can't say I totally agree with the point you made about anyone with the mark can't be redeemed. IF they don't turn away they will stay condemned yes, but for me I believe it is possible for someone to repent from worshiping idols.

Now for a bit more on how a Christian can be 'dead' if they can not share the light of Christ's message.......

Rev 11:. 7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.......11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet ; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.

Now let's just consider for a moment that these vs's are also about more than just plain death since we know that Jesus was not killed in literal Sodom or Egypt.

Matthew 4:4 NAS
But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.' "

Perhaps the death of the two witnesses happened when the word of God was locked away from the world during the dark ages and since the bible has come back again into the world the 'breath of life from God' has also?

Digging

 

[ezrider]

Dear Ezrider,

I must say this is the first time I've seen these vs's read from that perspective, very very interesting.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God : every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God ; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God ; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

I understand how this is a possible meaning however the challenge is to find a few other scriptures that could compliment this view. Since what you are saying is a very powerful suggestion. I have only seen this vs used to refer to Jesus having really lived as a human.

I would like to comment also on the word 'antichrist' made of two words #473=instead of and #5547 = anointed.

Definition strong's # 473

1. over against, opposite to, before
2. for, instead of, in place of (something)
   1. instead of

digging, I could try and list other scriptures that might compliment this, but I would ask that you trust in the Lord to reveal his truth to you. I'll post but this one to consider.

John 14:15-19 If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me.

 

[ezrider]

Oh, sorry. Couldn't help myself: Here's another.

John 3:31-36 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[digging]

Thank-you,

I will be thinking about this now.

Digging

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I posted earlier in this thread, I think the more significant understanding of the buying and selling as it relates to the beast and how it pertains to death is by the picture of a man who continues to lay his sins at the death of Christ; where instead of accepting the promises of the Lord, finds himself in a place where he tries to purchase the forgiveness of the Lord by selling his works in exchange by trying to be more obedient to the law in the flesh.

How can this be the interpretation since it is the man who does right that dies?

"...it was given to him (the false prophet) to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed." (Revelation 13:15 NASB)

But it seems you are saying it is the man who tries to buy from Jesus with his good deeds that is slain.

...instead of accepting the promises of the Lord, finds himself in a place where he tries to purchase the forgiveness of the Lord by selling his works in exchange by trying to be more obedient to the law in the flesh.

Christ himself tells us to buy from him. The problem I'm seeing in this thread is the commodity of exchange to buy from Jesus is not being adequately explained. As Christians, we all know the commodity of exchange is not obedient works of righteousness. So that's not even a possible interpretation. In fact, the passage says the clothing of obedient works is what we get from Jesus when we buy from him ("white garments so that you may clothe yourself" = righteous deeds of the saints, Revelation 19:8 NASB).

I think the passage is very simple. The Laodiceans were loaded, but they didn't know that, spiritually, they were bankrupt. Thus Jesus' admonition to them to purchase from him the riches they did not possess--pure gold refined in the fire, white garments, and salve for the eyes--IOW, the richness from God that they needed to be in fellowship with God, as opposed to the worldly wealth they did have and took false comfort in. Basically the same message Paul gave to Timothy:

"17 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches...18 ...be generous and ready to share,19 storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed." (1 Timothy 6:17 NASB)

I'm still having a problem making a connection between the 'buying and selling' in order to have the things of God in Revelation 3:18 and living, and the 'not' being able to 'buy and sell' of Revelation 13:17 and dying. They are not directly related because the former speaks of buying spiritual things, while the latter speaks of not being able to buy and sell the things of the world.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thus yes often through the ages Christians have been out right killed to keep them quite, but let's not only focus of literal physical death. The work of a Christian can also be 'killed' if they can't communicate/convert anyone. It's all about the 'word'.

Digging

The problem I'm having with this is the only death the world can deliver to the saint is physical death, not spiritual death.

The death of Revelation 13:15 has to be physical death. It's impossible for the image of the beast to take away the spiritual life of the one who does not worship that image or take the mark of the beast.

 

[digging]

I agree Jethro the way Ezrider is explaining his point is rather complicated and I can't say I totally agree with him. as I've said I see the buying and selling are a symbol for the exchanging and accepting of various doctrinal ideas. Recall that I also believe the two horned lamb beast is a mock of the true Christ. Well then the arrangement set up by it is also a mock of true relationship with Christ. IF we are meant to buy and sell with Christ they have copied that in a false way. We are to receive beautiful spiritual things when dealing with Christ, they are selling counterfeit spirituality through their image.

Did you see the part where I mentioned the two witnesses?

Notice some of the similarities with these scriptures.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth........15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

For myself I see these accounts speaking about the same event, which began when Jerusalem was destroyed and the true faithful believers began to be destroyed and a mock/false brotherhood created through the Empire of Rome which is the basic structure that most things of today are framed from.

As I said also I believe the 'death' happened when the bible was taken away during the dark ages, how could anyone believe if they were denied the hearing of the word?

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

I agree Jethro the way Ezrider is explaining his point is rather complicated and I can't say I totally agree with him. as I've said I see the buying and selling are a symbol for the exchanging and accepting of various doctrinal ideas. Recall that I also believe the two horned lamb beast is a mock of the true Christ. Well then the arrangement set up by it is also a mock of true relationship with Christ. IF we are meant to buy and sell with Christ they have copied that in a false way. We are to receive beautiful spiritual things when dealing with Christ, they are selling counterfeit spirituality through their image.

Did you see the part where I mentioned the two witnesses?

Notice some of the similarities with these scriptures.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth........15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

For myself I see these accounts speaking about the same event, which began when Jerusalem was destroyed and the true faithful believers began to be destroyed and a mock/false brotherhood created through the Empire of Rome which is the basic structure that most things of today are framed from.

As I said also I believe the 'death' happened when the bible was taken away during the dark ages, how could anyone believe if they were denied the hearing of the word?

Digging

Right now, I see the two witnesses as the old and new testaments coming together in the Messiah.
Both breath the fire words of the Lord. The Holy Spirit speaks of Him. In the Messiah these two came together. The law and the prophets with the Apostles, Christ being the fulfillment of both. Before and after the cross. He spoke of both. Both were of and in Him, all prophecy points to Him.
He is the two witnesses. He died and came alive again sometime on the third day. He rose again and ascended to God.

 

[ezrider]

As I said also I believe the 'death' happened when the bible was taken away during the dark ages, how could anyone believe if they were denied the hearing of the word?

Digging

Perhaps that was the time when the dragon was chained in the pit, where faith was their only guide. They were as children in the garden of Eden, living by the Tree of Life; but once the dragon was loosed, and knowing his time to be short, the commandments against sin came forth once again, and suddenly faith has lost is savor because the tree of Knowledge is sweet to the lips, and its fruit does make us wise, but beware for sin does cast a shadow that will blind you to the Faith that lies within you. Eat up the book, for in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey, but in thy belly it shall be bitter.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I agree Jethro the way Ezrider is explaining his point is rather complicated and I can't say I totally agree with him. as I've said I see the buying and selling are a symbol for the exchanging and accepting of various doctrinal ideas. Recall that I also believe the two horned lamb beast is a mock of the true Christ. Well then the arrangement set up by it is also a mock of true relationship with Christ. IF we are meant to buy and sell with Christ they have copied that in a false way. We are to receive beautiful spiritual things when dealing with Christ, they are selling counterfeit spirituality through their image.

Did you see the part where I mentioned the two witnesses?

Notice some of the similarities with these scriptures.

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth........15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

For myself I see these accounts speaking about the same event, which began when Jerusalem was destroyed and the true faithful believers began to be destroyed and a mock/false brotherhood created through the Empire of Rome which is the basic structure that most things of today are framed from.

As I said also I believe the 'death' happened when the bible was taken away during the dark ages, how could anyone believe if they were denied the hearing of the word?

Digging

Honestly, digger, I'm having a hard time accepting that Christians are prevented from buying and selling the ideas of the world after they get saved...especially by the world itself. Right there in Revelation we are exhorted to resist the temptation of doing that. The world doesn't exclude us when we get saved. It still holds it's doctrinal hands of fellowship out to us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right now, I see the two witnesses as the old and new testaments coming together in the Messiah.
Both breath the fire words of the Lord. The Holy Spirit speaks of Him. In the Messiah these two came together. The law and the prophets with the Apostles, Christ being the fulfillment of both. Before and after the cross. He spoke of both. Both were of and in Him, all prophecy points to Him.
He is the two witnesses. He died and came alive again sometime on the third day. He rose again and ascended to God.

Think Christ and his death and resurrection when you read this:

"11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

(Revelation 11:11-13 NASB)


I personally can't.

 

[digging]

Right now, I see the two witnesses as the old and new testaments coming together in the Messiah.
Both breath the fire words of the Lord. The Holy Spirit speaks of Him. In the Messiah these two came together. The law and the prophets with the Apostles, Christ being the fulfillment of both. Before and after the cross. He spoke of both. Both were of and in Him, all prophecy points to Him.
He is the two witnesses. He died and came alive again sometime on the third day. He rose again and ascended to God.

We are seeing the two witnesses in a very similar way Deborah, I see the two witnesses as the embodiment of all the believers first from the OT and then from the NT who's stories of faith are recorder in the scriptures that showed they truly believed in the promised Messiah, OT believed he would come, NT believed he did come and both gave witness to this promise.

I understand there is a range of time line perceptions for these events mentioned in Revelation and I respect that very much. Thus so others here can understand me better I'd like to explain how it makes sense to me.

10 ......... "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus ; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days..... 7 When they have finished their testimony,

Daniel 9:27 NAS
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering

Daniel 4:16 NAS
"Let his mind be changed from that of a man And let a beast's mind be given to him, And let seven periods of time pass over him.

OK, for myself I see one great huge week beginning with the fall of Adam and ending with the signs of Christs return. To me this is symbolized by the seven periods, and Jesus life and death on earth marked the half or middle of this week. So then I also see the 3.5, 42, 1260 as symbols for each half of this great week on either side of the time of Jesus.

I agree there is a pattern here with the two witnesses and the resurrection of Christ, but I feel pretty strongly that the locking away of scriptures for 100's of years as very serious thing that greatly impeded spiritual life on earth. Just like the devil could not keep Jesus dead the same is true of faith in him. After Christ left the devil tried to kill completely both physically and spiritually the body of faith. Which I feel is symbolized with the death of the two witnesses but this time the death is really very long in real time, but no matter a resurrection can not be stopped, first the spirit of life from God begins to enter into the earth again through the scriptures.

11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet,

I see that as spiritual revival through the releasing of the scriptures out of bondage of the past.

12 And they heard aloud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud,

This last part I see as the beginning of the complete restoration as promised to the righteous.

Digging

 

[digging]

Perhaps that was the time when the dragon was chained in the pit, where faith was their only guide. They were as children in the garden of Eden, living by the Tree of Life; but once the dragon was loosed, and knowing his time to be short, the commandments against sin came forth once again, and suddenly faith has lost is savor because the tree of Knowledge is sweet to the lips, and its fruit does make us wise, but beware for sin does cast a shadow that will blind you to the Faith that lies within you. Eat up the book, for in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey, but in thy belly it shall be bitter.

Ok or how about this, the beast was in the abyss, which is the same as the death stroke to the one head. That happened when Jesus was live and the true church was still living by true complete faith. Jesus left slowly the light went our of world after Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the early Christian body. When that happened the beast came up out of the abyss, the death stroke head revived remade as a so called 'Christian Empire'. The bible was locked a way in the vaults of the Vatican city. The death period of the two witnesses began and as you said above sin cast the shadow that blinded everyone to what true faith is through this new false institutional Christianity.

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

We are seeing the two witnesses in a very similar way Deborah, I see the two witnesses as the embodiment of all the believers first from the OT and then from the NT who's stories of faith are recorder in the scriptures that showed they truly believed in the promised Messiah, OT believed he would come, NT believed he did come and both gave witness to this promise.

I understand there is a range of time line perceptions for these events mentioned in Revelation and I respect that very much. Thus so others here can understand me better I'd like to explain how it makes sense to me.

10 ......... "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus ; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Rev 11:3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days..... 7 When they have finished their testimony,

Daniel 9:27 NAS
"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering

Daniel 4:16 NAS
"Let his mind be changed from that of a man And let a beast's mind be given to him, And let seven periods of time pass over him.

OK, for myself I see one great huge week beginning with the fall of Adam and ending with the signs of Christs return. To me this is symbolized by the seven periods, and Jesus life and death on earth marked the half or middle of this week. So then I also see the 3.5, 42, 1260 as symbols for each half of this great week on either side of the time of Jesus.

I agree there is a pattern here with the two witnesses and the resurrection of Christ, but I feel pretty strongly that the locking away of scriptures for 100's of years as very serious thing that greatly impeded spiritual life on earth. Just like the devil could not keep Jesus dead the same is true of faith in him. After Christ left the devil tried to kill completely both physically and spiritually the body of faith. Which I feel is symbolized with the death of the two witnesses but this time the death is really very long in real time, but no matter a resurrection can not be stopped, first the spirit of life from God begins to enter into the earth again through the scriptures.

11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet,

I see that as spiritual revival through the releasing of the scriptures out of bondage of the past.

12 And they heard aloud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud,

This last part I see as the beginning of the complete restoration as promised to the righteous.

Digging

I will think about this. There are definitely numerous comparisons. I think I can understand what you are seeing.

 

[digging]

Honestly, digger, I'm having a hard time accepting that Christians are prevented from buying and selling the ideas of the world after they get saved...especially by the world itself. Right there in Revelation we are exhorted to resist the temptation of doing that. The world doesn't exclude us when we get saved. It still holds it's doctrinal hands of fellowship out to us.

Well I find that interesting Jethro because in various serious ways that has not been the way for me. The ONLY doctrine I can share are the ones approved of by the various groups just depends on which group! Just try telling the Catholics you don't believe in the position of the Pope and see how far you will get.

I agree on an individual level we can share again, true witnessing is beginning to happen again, but this is different that the institutional religious bodies accepting our testimony.


Digging

 

[The Gospels]

the mark of the beast was a while ago ...