buying and selling

[agua.]

It's impossible to characterize the church by the portions of the Revelation 11 passage under discussion that I posted. Impossible.

We are hardly, on the whole, known for what the two lampstands and the two olive trees are doing in Revelation 11:4-6 NIV.

I think it's impossible that you can be so definitive about what a Gentile and Jewish believer can do as God's end time witnesses. But it seems you are :D

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think it's impossible that you can be so definitive about what a Gentile and Jewish believer can do as God's end time witnesses. But it seems you are :biggrin

You misunderstand. I think it wrong to generalize the church as being lamp stands and olive trees that do what is described there in Revelation 11. That's why I lean more toward them being very specific individuals, not representations of whole groups of people.

 

[agua.]

I believe the ones you mention are branches on the good Olive Tree that were not cutoff or grafted back in when they believed. Those righteous by faith/grace before and after the cross.

What do you think the good Olive Tree is ?

I'm not sure what you mean "speaking corporately about all Jews"?

Romans 9-11 is about the national situation of the Jew and the Gentile ( as well as individual salvation ) .

Rom 9:3-5 KJV For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

We can see here there can be no doubt when Paul is talking about Israel he means the Jew " my kinsmen according to the flesh" and he goes on to talk about the question "has God cast away His people ( Israel) " by explaining they were blinded for a time and salvation is offered nationally to the Gentiles.

Rom 11:1 KJV I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Again we can see Paul is talking about the Jew as a nation of people.

Rom 11:11 KJV I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Again Paul is talking about the Jew ( unbelieving ) as a group. Notice also he mentions the Gentiles as a group/nation.

The natural nation of Israel, consists of 12 tribes through Jacob by his sons.
But Paul says that all of those in Christ, the one Seed, are the seed of Abraham. So some of the branches that remain on this Olive Tree are both natural branches are of the 12 tribes and Abraham, while others, Gentiles, are just branches grafted into Abraham's seed by adoption. But in both cases, the only reason they are on this Tree is because they are in Christ, the one Seed.

Ok now here's something that doesn't fit Deb. Paul is distinctly talking about his kinsmen according to the flesh how could they be Gentiles ? The Gentiles are described as coming from a wild Olive Tree so this suggests they can't be the natural branches.

Rom 11:21 KJV For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

How can the Gentile be both a natural branch and a wild branch. Remember before Jesus came salvation wasn't corporately offered to the Gentile.

Rom 11:11 KJV I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

So I see two very distinct Israels. The physical nation of Israel, descendents of the 12 tribes and the spiritual Israel, all those in Christ. The reason they are called the natural branches is because of their natural relationship to Abraham not because they are of the 12 tribes. Abraham was a Hebrew but not an Israelite.
Remember when Jesus said that if Abraham were truly their father they would believe in Him. That is the distinction.

The both natural seed of Abraham. Isaac was a natural seed of Abraham but not an Israelite, of the 12 tribes. Remember where it says, through Isaac.....

The scriptures which talk about spiritual Israel are about the true Jew as per Romans 2. In Romans 9-11 there is a clear distinction between the Jew and the Gentile and the Gentile isn't called an Israelite. Abraham was the Father of the Israelite through Isaac and it's interesting there are passages which analogously consider Him to be an Israelite. ( if you insist I'll look for them but off the top of my head it's concerning the promise and the 430 years of captivity etc. ). Yes there is a distinction between the believing and unbelieving Jew but the Gentile is never called an Israelite. Of course we know one can be joined with Israel as a Gentile but this is a side bar. When we think of the believing Jew and the believing Gentile both having Abraham as a Father it's about Jesus as you've said but this isn't the point of contention.

Very good point and you may be correct about that. I don't have a set definite picture in my mind. I rather think of Messiah as the root of the Tree and Abraham the Tree, but you may be correct that the Tree consists of all those in faith before the cross.

Jesus being the root of the tree doesn't really fit because the passages are talking about Abraham as the beginning of the line of Faithful believers here. These passages are only addressing the line of salvation through Abraham. Like I said above salvation wasn't offered corporately to the Gentile until after Jesus came. The first fruit mentioned in Romans 11: 16 is likely the believing remnant from verse 5 with Abraham being the root from verse 1.

Rom 11:16 KJV For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Well I certainly believe God is not done with the Hebrew (Jewish) people. His promises of spiritual blessings to them still stand, promises made through Abraham, Isacc, Jacob....that when they turn from the transgression in Jacob (Israel, as in the 12 tribes as a nation) they will be restored. I believe this is an individual restoration. This has been going on all along but I do believe there will a great revival, if you will. The Gospel message will be heard and received by many, many Jews. But to say I know how this will happen, I cannot, it would be to assume too much, as the word is not totally clear.

I do not believe that the nation restored in a day is the State of Israel. All of that is about a physical land, not a spiritual one.

It can be seen in several places that the Jews will be restored to their physical land in the Bible and as shown above there is a corporate action upon the Jew and the Gentile so I'm not sure how we can suggest it's all about individuals. Romans tells us how this will happen when Jesus comes out of Sion. Do you accept Sion is Israel here ?

Rom 11:26 KJV And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[agua.]

You misunderstand. I think it wrong to generalize the the church as being lamp stands and olive trees that do what is described there in Revelation 11. That's why I lean more toward them being very specific individuals, not representations of whole groups of people.

Ah ok. I haven't insisted they are groups so we must be cool then. Chigurh may let me live. So you're ok it may be a Gentile and a Jewish believer ?

 

[agua.]

Heads !

 

[Deborah13]

4. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.

6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire."

(Revelation 11:4-6 NASB)

In Zech. there is only one candlestick and 2 trees. What do you make of that?
Of coarse there is more to the candlestick, a bowl, and 7 lamps.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Heads !

Well done.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Chigurh may let me live. So you're ok it may be a Gentile and a Jewish believer ?

Maybe on the first part.

Yes on the second part.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In Zech. there is only one candlestick and 2 trees. What do you make of that?

I don't know.

 

[agua.]

In Zech. there is only one candlestick and 2 trees. What do you make of that?
Of coarse there is more to the candlestick, a bowl, and 7 lamps.

At that stage there was only one Nation who were Yahweh's people/light to the world eh. Ops you won't like that :D I'm just tossing thoughts around concerning the 2 witnesses btw.

 

[agua.]

Maybe on the first part.

Yes on the second part.

Woo hoo Chigurh maybe won't kill me that's worth celebrating.

 

[agua.]

I believe that is happening. any time a Hebrew like me or my kin are saved that is being done. per your doctrine.we saved jews don't count. odd isn't that what the new promise to isreal was for? and first?

Believing Jews are the natural branches so you don't worry yourself. I think you don't understand my doctrine but that's ok it seems most don't. Maybe I don't explain things properly i should leave it to Paul everyone understand him :D

 

[agua.]

KJV
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
Isa 59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.
Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
Isa 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Here Deb you're comparing 2 sets of scriptures which are about about Israel.

Rom 11:1 KJV I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Isa 58:1 KJV Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

You just can't change them to mean the Church.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Again this is about Israel I'm not sure how you can change this.

Heb 8:8 KJV For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Redeemer of Jacob already came. Each one individually when they are drawn can choose to open their eyes and hear with their ears. Hear the Gospel of Christ. This is what the Apostles proclaimed to them first. Some received some did not. Those who chose not to hear Him, the Lord hardened (blinded). Why haven't more come as yet? I believe...

Yes Jesus has already come but the Jews as a nation didn't accept Him ( aside from the remnant ). The passage about Jesus making a new covenenat with the Jew is the same as Romans 11:26 and is when He returns. The Jews are still blinded nationally and don't accept Jesus was Messiah.

YLT
2Co 3:12 Having, then, such hope, we use much freedom of speech,
2Co 3:13 and are not as Moses, who was putting a vail upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,
2Co 3:14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same vail at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn--which in Christ is being made useless--
2Co 3:15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a vail upon their heart doth lie,
2Co 3:16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the vail is taken away.

Remember how the Bereans searched the scripture to see if what Paul told them was true. They were searching the OT scriptures. They sought truth and their eyes were opened and their ears could hear and believe the Gospel that Paul preached. The Apostles used the OT scriptures a lot; that could only have been for the Jews in the crowd. Any Jew could be like a Berean Jew.

Just what I believe, now.

Yes any Jew can turn to Jesus and some have and do but this isn't the issue we are discussing. According to Paul because they rejected Jesus as a nation the unbelieving part was broken of and blinded until the full amount of Gentiles come in. Please don't mix individual salvation with what is happening to the groups.

What do you suggest the blinding of the Jews means and why did Yahweh do this ?

 

[Deborah13]

What do you think the good Olive Tree is ?

Romans 9-11 is about the national situation of the Jew and the Gentile ( as well as individual salvation ) .

Rom 9:3-5 KJV For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (4) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (5) Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

We can see here there can be no doubt when Paul is talking about Israel he means the Jew " my kinsmen according to the flesh" and he goes on to talk about the question "has God cast away His people ( Israel) " by explaining they were blinded for a time and salvation is offered nationally to the Gentiles.

Rom 11:1 KJV I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Again we can see Paul is talking about the Jew as a nation of people.

Rom 11:11 KJV I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Again Paul is talking about the Jew ( unbelieving ) as a group. Notice also he mentions the Gentiles as a group/nation.

Ok now here's something that doesn't fit Deb. Paul is distinctly talking about his kinsmen according to the flesh how could they be Gentiles ? The Gentiles are described as coming from a wild Olive Tree so this suggests they can't be the natural branches.

Rom 11:21 KJV For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

How can the Gentile be both a natural branch and a wild branch. Remember before Jesus came salvation wasn't corporately offered to the Gentile.

I wasn't suggesting that Gentiles are natural branches, just grafted in to the good Tree. I said,
"So some of the branches that remain on this Olive Tree are both natural branches are of the 12 tribes and Abraham, (Issac, Jacob, all natural Israel)
( while others, Gentiles, are just branches grafted into Abraham's seed by adoption.")
I should have said to be more clear, "while others, Gentiles, are just wild branches grafted into Abraham's seed by adoption, through Christ."
Does that make more sense?

The only time that I know of that salvation was offered to Israel corporately was under the old covenant. God kept up his end of the deal. They received all the land He had promised them. They broke the covenant several times. The last time was when they rejected their Messiah.
They were cutoff as a nation. Will they be accepted back as a nation, yes.

But I see this as the same way in the OT there were not whole nations of Gentiles accepted by God.
Now all nations are accepted. But that does not change the fact that Salvation is individual.
So have they been accepted back yet as a nation? I don't know but I think they have. But not because of the State of Israel being created in 1948.

Rom 11:11 KJV I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

The scriptures which talk about spiritual Israel are about the true Jew as per Romans 2. In Romans 9-11 there is a clear distinction between the Jew and the Gentile and the Gentile isn't called an Israelite. Abraham was the Father of the Israelite through Isaac and it's interesting there are passages which analogously consider Him to be an Israelite. ( if you insist I'll look for them but off the top of my head it's concerning the promise and the 430 years of captivity etc. ). Yes there is a distinction between the believing and unbelieving Jew but the Gentile is never called an Israelite. Of course we know one can be joined with Israel as a Gentile but this is a side bar. When we think of the believing Jew and the believing Gentile both having Abraham as a Father it's about Jesus as you've said but this isn't the point of contention.

A Jew who has a circumcised heart is a Christian. A Gentile who has a circumcised heart is a Christian. For in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, we are one. Does that make a Gentile an Israelite, no. In Christ, there is only one nation, His nation, and it's spiritual.
In Galatians 3:28 - a male is still a male, female is female, Jew is Jew, Greek still Greek (physical we are what we are, but in Christ (spiritually we are all the same).

Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Jesus being the root of the tree doesn't really fit because the passages are talking about Abraham as the beginning of the line of Faithful believers here. These passages are only addressing the line of salvation through Abraham. Like I said above salvation wasn't offered corporately to the Gentile until after Jesus came. The first fruit mentioned in Romans 11: 16 is likely the believing remnant from verse 5 with Abraham being the root from verse 1.

Rom 11:16 KJV For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

" The first fruit mentioned in Romans 11: 16 is likely the believing remnant from verse 5 with Abraham being the root from verse 1"

I can easily agree with this.

It can be seen in several places that the Jews will be restored to their physical land in the Bible and as shown above there is a corporate action upon the Jew and the Gentile so I'm not sure how we can suggest it's all about individuals. Romans tells us how this will happen when Jesus comes out of Sion. Do you accept Sion is Israel here ?

Rom 11:26 KJV And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

I don't know how the Lord is going to do this. But surely He will. I'm looking forward to it. The Church is not whole without them.

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Jn 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth

 

[Deborah13]

At that stage there was only one Nation who were Yahweh's people/light to the world eh. Ops you won't like that :biggrin I'm just tossing thoughts around concerning the 2 witnesses btw.

 

[Deborah13]

Here Deb you're comparing 2 sets of scriptures which are about about Israel.

Rom 11:1 KJV I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Isa 58:1 KJV Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

You just can't change them to mean the Church.



Again this is about Israel I'm not sure how you can change this.

Heb 8:8 KJV For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:



Yes Jesus has already come but the Jews as a nation didn't accept Him ( aside from the remnant ). The passage about Jesus making a new covenenat with the Jew is the same as Romans 11:26 and is when He returns. The Jews are still blinded nationally and don't accept Jesus was Messiah.



Yes any Jew can turn to Jesus and some have and do but this isn't the issue we are discussing. According to Paul because they rejected Jesus as a nation the unbelieving part was broken of and blinded until the full amount of Gentiles come in. Please don't mix individual salvation with what is happening to the groups.

What do you suggest the blinding of the Jews means and why did Yahweh do this ?

In the OT, there were Gentiles served God but not many. The Gentile nations were not in a covenant with God like Israel. Because of the nation of Israel rejecting the Messiah they ended up in the same position that the Gentiles had been in. But even so many Jews accepted Messiah and some have down through the yrs. The nation will be accepted again but I believe that they will come to righteousness (the Messiah) the same way the believing Jews always have by receiving Christ.

I quoted all scriptures about Israel, the Jews, and how I see they will be saved. I quoted what Paul said about their problem in receiving Christ.

I don't understand when you say I'm taking those scriptures and changing them to mean the Church.
Do you think I believe Replacement Theology? I don't, not at all. I don't even know anyone who does.

As far as I can tell the first members of the Church were the OT saints, then the Apostles, and other Jews, and then the Gentiles. The OT saints just had to wait awhile, looking forward to the cross.
I just believe that God has been busy the last almost 6000 yrs. building a holy nation, a peculiar people, for Himself.

 

[agua.]

Gday Deb my quote function doesn't seem to work this morning so I'll quickly reply and ask a couple of questions. So you seem to say you agree the natural branches are all Jews but there were already some wild branches on the good olive tree before the Cross is this right ? You agree that the natural branches are Paul's "kinsmen according to the flesh" ?

When the Bible talks about Gentiles as a nation concerning salvation it means everyone who isn't a Jew or attached to His chosen people. This is the concept we're talking about. You say God offered salvation to Israel as a group and that he will again and this is precisely what Paul is talking about. The method seems to be the thing you don't accept in that salvation was only offered corporately to the Gentiles ( ie. they could be saved without attachment to Israel in the passages we are discussin ) and you haven't addressed this yet.

What do you suggest the blinding of the Jews means and why did Yahweh do this ?

Israel's formation in 1948 isn't the time of Romans 11:26 I haven't suggested that. It could be the pre-emptive reforming before this time though imo.

I'm not sure why you keep talking about salvation through Jesus as if I'm suggesting the Jew will have it in another way. Actually it's the usual non relevant replies I get for some reason and it only shows we don't understand each other.

We are discussing the methods Yahweh has used to bring the Jew and the Gentile to Him and you quote scriptures specifically about the Jew and apply them to non Jews from I can see. This is replacement theology.

 

[jasonc]

Believing Jews are the natural branches so you don't worry yourself. I think you don't understand my doctrine but that's ok it seems most don't. Maybe I don't explain things properly i should leave it to Paul everyone understand him :D

I understand your doctrine fully, just well where will the church be ? in the rapture? where will the believing jews be in that? heaven? ok so if im in heaven until the end the 1000 years. where is isreal literaly. oh gone. it was destroyed with the earth. hmm that is my point.

 

[Deborah13]

Gday Deb my quote function doesn't seem to work this morning so I'll quickly reply and ask a couple of questions. So you seem to say you agree the natural branches are all Jews but there were already some wild branches on the good olive tree before the Cross is this right ? You agree that the natural branches are Paul's "kinsmen according to the flesh" ?

I don't think people like Ruth, Rehab, etc. would be considered wild branches, but maybe they would.
They were proselytes, faithful Jews by choice so I don't know. But certainly almost all would be natural, genetic Jews.

When the Bible talks about Gentiles as a nation concerning salvation it means everyone who isn't a Jew or attached to His chosen people. This is the concept we're talking about. You say God offered salvation to Israel as a group and that he will again and this is precisely what Paul is talking about. The method seems to be the thing you don't accept in that salvation was only offered corporately to the Gentiles ( ie. they could be saved without attachment to Israel in the passages we are discussin ) and you haven't addressed this yet.

It just dawned on me that maybe we have a different understanding of who the nation of Israel was before the cross. God called them out first and foremost to bring the light of the world, the Messiah.
Even before the cross I see a nation Israel that was and still is a natural "kinsmen in the flesh" people.
But I also see a spiritual group of people, the Remnant if you will. These were/are the chosen, peculiar people, the holy people of God. I see the 'Israel of God' Galatians 6:16 as the peculiar, holy people.
1 Peter 2:9, as having began with the old testament saints most of them Jewish and continuing on to the bringing in of the Gentiles and ending with many Jews coming in. Jesus said He had two flocks those two flocks will be one.
When the Gospel was take to the Gentiles it grew and grew, there were true revivals down through the yrs. That is what I think is going to happen with the Jews. I see the Messianic Movement growing even in Israel where so many are against them. The Orthodox Jews tell their people not to shop in their stores, etc. For the sake of the forefathers God said.

What do you suggest the blinding of the Jews means and why did Yahweh do this ?

Israel's formation in 1948 isn't the time of Romans 11:26 I haven't suggested that. It could be the pre-emptive reforming before this time though imo.

I'm not sure why you keep talking about salvation through Jesus as if I'm suggesting the Jew will have it in another way. Actually it's the usual non relevant replies I get for some reason and it only shows we don't understand each other.

We are discussing the methods Yahweh has used to bring the Jew and the Gentile to Him and you quote scriptures specifically about the Jew and apply them to non Jews from I can see. This is replacement theology.

I'm sorry I keep misunderstanding you. Maybe you can see what I am saying this time, it is not Replacement Theology at all. In fact, some Messianic Jews believe almost exactly like I do.
I tried to figure out a way to look at things from the corp. view as you said. But I guess you will have to do that with someone that can get it. I tried going at it a couple different ways but it just got too complicated. :neutral
Blessings agua, thanks for the attempt.

 

[jasonc]

in exodus whom were the mixed multitudes that agreed with the torah? HMM? they weren't Hebrews, Joseph's sons were what? Egyptians? moses married a what? an ethopian. the midianites are ethopians and the kenites aren't exactly Hebrews at all.