By His Stripes we are Healed !

[follower of Christ]

Just a little study and info on this thorn in Pauls flesh for the READERS here.

Heres the passage...

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(2 Corinthians 12:7-9 KJV)

Firstly notice that it is a 'thorn' supposedly in Pauls flesh.
Sounds like something within Pauls body, quite frankly.

A point of note is this...Christ told Paul "for my strength is made perfect in weakness'
The word 'weakness' there is this;

G769
????????
astheneia
as-then'-i-ah
From G772; feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.

Doesnt seem to imply anything that would have been Pauls 'experiences' or a 'demon' as C seems to believe, but lets look and see how this word is rendered elsewhere to get a broader feel for it, shall we

Here are the occurances from the concordance...

G769
????????
astheneia
Total KJV Occurrences: 24

infirmities, 10
Mat_8:17, Luk_5:15, Luk_8:2, Rom_8:26, 2Co_11:30, 2Co_12:5, 2Co_12:9-10 (2), 1Ti_5:23, Heb_4:15

infirmity, 7
Luk_13:11-12 (2), Joh_5:5, Rom_6:19, Gal_4:13, Heb_5:2, Heb_7:28

weakness, 5
1Co_2:3, 1Co_15:43, 2Co_12:9, 2Co_13:4, Heb_11:34

diseases, 1
Act_28:9

sickness, 1
Joh_11:4

Now lets start examining these and see if they seem to be more about ailments or demons....I wont bother with ones that are so vague that nothing can be determined one way or another, since that is the problem we're already dealing with.

But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities.
(Luke 5:15 KJV)

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
(Matthew 8:17 KJV)

This next one is VERY interesting as it makes distinction between demons and 'infirmities'.

And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,
(Luke 8:2 KJV)

...ie they probably arent the same exact thing as C seems to be claiming.

And here we have Timothy's stomach issue that uses the same word...

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
(1 Timothy 5:23 KJV)

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
(Hebrews 4:15 KJV)

Here it seems to be talking about 'weakness'..ie to temptation and sin, based on the verse as a whole.
I guess we could say Pauls 'thorn' was 'sin', could we not ?
I mean, Jesus did say 'my grace is sufficient'....what does grace do but cover sinfulness.
This is the only other argument that Ive come across concerning Pauls 'thorn' that would tend to fit all of the details...including Pauls struggling with his flesh nature in Romans 7.

Heres a good one as it IS about an infirmity CAUSED BY a spirit of some sort.

And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and she was bent over and was not able to straighten herself up.
(Luke 13:11 EMTV)

Hmmm....could be that Pauls eyesight WAS his 'thorn' since demons can cause physical ailments.

To be continued....

 

[shad]

So there you have it in black and white. A demon, even if you find that hard to believe

C,

I agree that we should strive to obey everything that Jesus commands and teaches. But you seem to be reading the Bible out of context about healing and speaking in tongues. We are all reading and quoting the Scriptures. You are not the only one, friend.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Of course we can get sick. The Bible says that we do. But God heals us too. He is the Healer.

Huh.
So then your god likes to play a game with you by taunting you with sickness then healing you of it?
Seems to me that if your doctrine were true youd be immune to sickness and amputation....

Yep,definitely says that God is the One who puts the diseases upon us.

Exd 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee.

Sorry but while I know God CAN do so, youre leaving out facts from scripture friend.

So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
(Job 2:7 KJV)

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Yep again, it says so right here.

Assuming that THIS IS literal (tho your 'wine' excuse isnt ;) ) then it is VERY feasible that this 'demon' had caused some PHYSICAL ailment in Paul.
You seem to think YOU have some insight that NO one else has, for whatever reason, C.
Ive read a ton of actual SCHOLARS of the bible in the matter and they are all over the board on what this 'thorn' actually is.

God really sent Paul a demon .

In YOUR opinion...

You do know what a messenger (angelos /angel ) of Satan is , don't you?

I know when to make sure not to jump onto the 'literal' thing without a good reason ;)
There is no good reason for Jesus to have set a demon loose on His chosen apostles to the gentiles.

2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Not a good enough reason for Jesus to have turned Paul over to satan, Im afraid....which is reserved for willful sinners in the church.

So there you have it in black and white. A demon, even if you find that hard to believe

What I find very EASY to believe is that you take something very literal when it suits YOUR needs, even tho that literal understanding makes our Lord look like a monster who'd turn His own OBEDIENT children over to demons...then when it suits your needs again you'll distort something meant VERY literally into fantasy just to keep from accepting the facts...ie 'use a little wine for your stomach'.... ;)

.

 

[Cornelius]

Firstly notice that it is a 'thorn' supposedly in Pauls flesh.
Sounds like something within Pauls body, quite frankly.

.

That is correct . It cannot dwell in Paul's spirit.Demons dwell in the flesh (out court) and cannot come into the holy place , the spirit of the believer. But it can definitely come into your flesh.

 

[Cornelius]

Firstly notice that it is a 'thorn' supposedly in Pauls flesh.
Sounds like something within Pauls body, quite frankly.

.

That is correct . It cannot dwell in Paul's spirit.Demons dwell in the flesh (out court) and cannot come into the holy place , the spirit of the believer. But it can definitely come into your flesh.

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes , even amputated legs. I told you before, that this has already happened.

Yeah, yeah, yeah....in some third world country where it cant be confirmed by anyone whom we could actually believe.
Well..isnt that convenient .....its always in some backwater where we cant get a medical analysis and confirmation ;)

Check out the history of the church in Korea, where God grew back the legs (BOTH) of an amputee.

Tell ya what, I'll play along and pretend I believe the story.
Is it your claim that Koreans are the ONLY believing people in the faith then ?

It took time, because pastor Cho did not have faith in the beginning that it would happen, but in the end God did just that ......the legs grew back.

We'll see... ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

Firstly notice that it is a 'thorn' supposedly in Pauls flesh.
Sounds like something within Pauls body, quite frankly.

.

That is correct . It cannot dwell in Paul's spirit.Demons dwell in the flesh (out court) and cannot come into the holy place , the spirit of the believer. But it can definitely come into your flesh.

Something inside me wants to play cat and mouse with this comment and draw you out into contradicting yourself, C.
Is it worth the warning it will certainly bring. Hmmmmm...

 

[Cornelius]

I hope you realize that I am not posting to convince you I cannot do that , that is God's work in us. I am posting so that people can be informed about the Word. Those who can think for themselves are also reading this. But , some are so indoctrinated that they will not be able to see. That I can nothing about.

The Bible says Paul had a demon that was sent to keep him humble. God uses demons as the Bible shows clearly:
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Here as well:

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

 

[Cornelius]

Something inside me .

Its called "the flesh"

 

[follower of Christ]

.
for the READERS of this thread.


And here we have a bit more about Pauls eyesight....
Remember Paul had said this

Gal 6:11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!

We believe that Paul had poor eyesight, possibly resulting from the 'scales' over his eyes in Acts.

Its pretty much confirmed that Paul DID have poor eyesight.

Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
(Galatians 4:13-15 KJV)

So Paul writes with big letters as someone with horrible eyesight might do.
Why would Paul say this about the Galatians plucking out their own eyes to GIVE to him unless they empathized with some eye problem of Pauls ???
Notice the word 'infirmity' as its the same greek word used when Paul speaks about his 'weakness' in the following...

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(2 Corinthians 12:7-9 KJV)

It is VERY likely that Pauls 'thorn' in his flesh was simply his poor eyesight.

But of course, we DONT know and WONT know, so Im not even going to pretend that I know anything for certain because there ISNT enough evidence TO know...even if C seems to think hes got it all figured out. the BEST of scholars admit that we simply dont have enough evidence to know factually what this 'thorn' was.

What we DO know is that Paul asked Jesus THREE times to help him with it and Christ rejected the request.
Why ?
Because it suited HIS purpose for Pauls life.

"healing' of ANY nature is GODS decision to carry out.
It has nothing to do with our failing to have faith.

.
.

 

[follower of Christ]

Something inside me .

Its called "the flesh"

yeah...maybe its a 'thorn' in there...

 

[follower of Christ]

I hope you realize that I am not posting to convince you I cannot do that , that is God's work in us.

Youre right...you cant.
and seeing how much you are grasping I doubt youre going to convince anyone else either.

I am posting so that people can be informed about the Word. Those who can think for themselves are also reading this. But , some are so indoctrinated that they will not be able to see. That I can nothing about.

I seriously doubt that no one who isnt already caught up in this vending machine god fallacy is interested, C.

The Bible says Paul had a demon that was sent to keep him humble.

Again, you make THIS literal when it seems HIGHLY unlikely that Jesus turned an OBEDIENT apostle over to a demon (because it suits your needs), then make something very easily discerned AS literal into allegory (Timothy's wine)..again, because it suits your needs.

Just not buying it, C
No offense.

God uses demons as the Bible shows clearly:
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Here as well:

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

I know all about those passages, friend....those and more.
They have little to do with the issue at hand because, for instance, in Kings there the lying spirit was given because the man seemingly WANTED to hear a lie.

And all the prophets prophesied so, saying, Go up to Ramoth-gilead and be blessed. For Jehovah shall deliver it into the king's hand. And the messenger who went to call Micaiah spoke to him, saying, Behold, the words of the prophets declare good to the king with one mouth, and please let your word be like one of theirs, and speak good.
(2 Chronicles 18:11-12 MKJV)

How about posting the REST of the passage so WE can see the CONTEXT for ourselves, C ? ;)
When men WANT a lie, God WILL give them a lie.
Simple enough.


Paul was an OBEDIENT apostle once Christ came to him.
There was NO need to send him lying spirits or turn him over to Satan/demons as you seem to believe.

.

 

[Cornelius]

Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Christians are the most difficult people to tell about God's power ?

Its like when I tell Christians that God placed a numeric pattern in the original so we can be sure about which words are correct. They go " Oh No, Oh no, that cannot be" LOL Like they are SO disturbed about something that can possibly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Word is indeed the Word of God. No, they do not run to that knowledge, they shout you down, like unbelievers.

Now come to Christians with the Good News about the curse being removed and "No, No, No, that cannot be"

LOL we sure live in a crazy world, don't we. Christians working so hard at proving the Bible is not saying, what it is saying.

C

 

[Cornelius]

Paul was an OBEDIENT apostle once Christ came to him.
There was NO need to send him lying spirits or turn him over to Satan/demons as you seem to believe.

.

Man, am I living on a different planet or what ? LOL

Paul TELLS us the reason for the messenger of Satan. 2Cr 12:7 ¶ And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Paul said it twice so that you will not miss it. And it succeeded too in keeping him humble. Paul said so himself. So God knew exactly what He was doing.

 

[follower of Christ]

Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Christians are the most difficult people to tell about God's power ?

What I find interesting is that some Christians really pervert and distort Gods word so horribly.

Its like when I tell Christians that God placed a numeric pattern in the original so we can be sure about which words are correct. They go " Oh No, Oh no, that cannot be" LOL Like they are SO disturbed about something that can possibly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Word is indeed the Word of God. No, they do not run to that knowledge, they shout you down, like unbelievers.

oh boy....here we go...

Now come to Christians with the Good News about the curse being removed and "No, No, No, that cannot be"

Youre not bringing good news to those whom God has chosen NOT to heal, poster....the ONLY thing your godless error does to those ones is cause them to LOSE faith and think God has forsaken them.

LOL we sure live in a crazy world, don't we. Christians working so hard at proving the Bible is not saying, what it is saying.

C

Right...so WHY are you doing it, C ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Man, am I living on a different planet or what ? LOL

Must be.
I just posted above that this 'weakness' that Paul had that was his 'thorn' was very likely meant as his poor eyesight...

Paul TELLS us the reason for the messenger of Satan.

That doesnt mean that it WASNT simply his EYESIGHT, friend.
Ive shown conclusively that EVEN IF our Lord DID turn Paul over to Satan as you believe that it was VERY likely to simply be Pauls poor eyesight.

 

[follower of Christ]

For anyone who missed it the first time....


.
for the READERS of this thread.


And here we have a bit more about Pauls eyesight....
Remember Paul had said this

Gal 6:11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!

We believe that Paul had poor eyesight, possibly resulting from the 'scales' over his eyes in Acts.

Its pretty much confirmed that Paul DID have poor eyesight.

Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.
(Galatians 4:13-15 KJV)

So Paul writes with big letters as someone with horrible eyesight might do.
Why would Paul say this about the Galatians plucking out their own eyes to GIVE to him unless they empathized with some eye problem of Pauls ???
Notice the word 'infirmity' as its the same greek word used when Paul speaks about his 'weakness' in the following...

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
(2 Corinthians 12:7-9 KJV)

It is VERY likely that Pauls 'thorn' in his flesh was simply his poor eyesight.

But of course, we DONT know and WONT know, so Im not even going to pretend that I know anything for certain because there ISNT enough evidence TO know...even if C seems to think hes got it all figured out. the BEST of scholars admit that we simply dont have enough evidence to know factually what this 'thorn' was.

What we DO know is that Paul asked Jesus THREE times to help him with it and Christ rejected the request.
Why ?
Because it suited HIS purpose for Pauls life.

"healing' of ANY nature is GODS decision to carry out.
It has nothing to do with our failing to have faith.

.
.

 

[Cornelius]

Brother, there are many Christians who find themselves in a situation, where they are faced with a situation regarding their health, that seems to them impossible. Genetic , or something that happened like a lost limb or something else that seems to be just too large for God to handle. Then we start seeking for a way to go around the healing scriptures, because we think that if we do not get healed, we will be doomed and showed to have no real faith.

That is a lie from the devil.

We are not measured by the manifestation of that faith. We are called just to have faith . Simple faith in that with God all is indeed possible.I am not going to tell you that if you have faith, your situation will change tomorrow. It might, but it might stay the same until the Lord comes. In which case, if you believed, then at least you would have been found IN faith. That is to your credit. Believing God is accredited as righteousness. You know that.

I also have to deal with some things that was delivered to my through my human father. An impossibility in the eyes of those who only see the flesh. But for me, I rejoice , because in Him, I have been perfected, healed, set free . I believe Him, when He said :It is finished ! He came to set the captives free and deliver us all from the curse. He came, He did what He came to do, then said: It is finished.

Do my eyes see this 100%. No they do not My flesh testifies to the opposite, but my spiritual eyes see the perfection that He brought and bought through His blood. I see myself in the mirror of faith and thank Him for my perfection that is a gift. I thank Him for my healing, BEFORE I can see it, just simply because that is what He promised me. I praise Him in faith, that this will manifest in my life. I see the "end from the beginning" knowing that nothing is impossible for our Father.He can grow a leg, put back an eye, restore a mind, take away AIDS, clean leapers , open blind eyes, take away diabetes, cure livers, take away addictions etc . Nothing is impossible for those who believe that what God has promised, HE is well capable of bringing to reality.

Our God reigns , even over the curse. So rather be encouraged in your faith and know, that with Him, all things are possible.

 

[follower of Christ]

Brother, there are many Christians who find themselves in a situation, where they are faced with a situation regarding their health, that seems to them impossible. Genetic , or something that happened like a lost limb or something else that seems to be just too large for God to handle.

Are you building a strawman to tear down here, C?
Not sure how many times you need to be told that WE BELIEVE that God heals.
We simply do NOT by your fallacy that God WILL heal everyone.

Then we start seeking for a way to go around the healing scriptures, because we think that if we do not get healed, we will be doomed and showed to have no real faith.

Sorry gent but those scriptures DONT SAY that ALL WILL be healed.

That is a lie from the devil.

Your preaching a lie from the devil.
And it will certainly cause someones faith to fail when they arent healed when YOU promised them they would be if only they had faith.

We are not measured by the manifestation of that faith. We are called just to have faith . Simple faith in that with God all is indeed possible.

Faith is what we need...healing or not...

I am not going to tell you that if you have faith, your situation will change tomorrow. It might, but it might stay the same until the Lord comes.

My situation will never change, friend.
My disease was given to me for a purpose. Which flies in the face of your fallacy, whether you understand that fact or not.

Do my eyes see this 100%. No they do not

nuff said ;)

My flesh testifies to the opposite, but my spiritual eyes see the perfection that He brought and bought through His blood.

And now for the allegory and deflection...

He can ...

"can" I agree with..."will" is your own addition...

Our God reigns , even over the curse. So rather be encouraged in your faith and know, that with Him, all things are possible.

All things ARE possible.
That says nothing about all things coming to pass.

We done here ?