By His Stripes we are Healed !

[GodspromisesRyes]

The thorn in pauls flesh was without a doubt not his eye sight. thorn in the flesh is a biblical ot term that God used to warn the Israelites and the word of God itself tells us its meaning.

The meaning of having a thorn in the side or in the flesh is the people who they failed to remove from their promised land would forever be a thorn in their side or their flesh.

Paul says that the thorn in His flesh was a MESSENGER OF SATAN.- messenger is the same word for ANGEL.- So this was an ANGEL OF SATAN given to be a thorn in pauls flesh(just as in the OT it was physical people who were in their physical promised land.) This angel was given to BUFFET him.

If we would JUST READ THE CONTEXT Paul tells us what this " messenger of satan" caused!

2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

This is not anything to do with eye sight, it is about the constant persecutions Paul was under everywhere he went.

Paul said this is what happened to BUFFET Him,- The same thing happened to Christ Jesus, He was buffetted through persecutiuon.
Mar 14:65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.

this is what the word for buffet means in greek-1) to strike with the fist, give one a blow with the fist

2) to maltreat, treat with violence and contumely

Paul talks about this elsewhere when he says:

1Cr 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;


1Cr 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:


1Cr 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, [and are] the offscouring of all things unto this day.



So it was not a curse of health that paul was under that God did not remove- it was the constant persecutions that God placed upon him through an angel of satan to keep him buffetted so paul would be weak and God could be His strength.

God is faithful to His promises. Healing is a promise given to all who will BELIEVE. But to be hated and persecuted is what we are called to.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I will require scripture that says or shows directly that there are faithful disciples of God that God wills NOT to heal or apply His promises to.

There is no scriptural example of this, there is no one who believed who was told sorry its not Gods will, There is no doctrine that says God wills to heal some faithful but not other faithful.

We need to stand on the word of God by which our faith grows. Not on what we have seen or heard or have not seen or heard from men.

It is very sad that today so many christians believe that men are more faithful than God. That it is safer to see men about your health and take their tests and medicines and surgeries, than to trust our saviour, creator, beloved,Lord,and God.

That the works of men are to be trusted and that it is foolish to not seek them.

But that Gods promises could just willy nilly be given out and not be firm or faithful or true, or maybe He just doesnt care about us to fulfill them for some of us even if we fulfill His requirements for them, maybe He just isnt really paying attention, isnt concerned if His faithful beloved suffers under the curse He died to free us of, or is to busy to care if we die early even though we have kept His commandments that come with the promise of long life and health. Maybe His arm is shortened or His power was left 2000 yrs ago.


This is truly a sad state. The word of God is full of hundreds of promises and examples on physical healing by the will of God to faithful repentant forgiving belivers.- While it contains not one example of a faithful person asking for healing and being told NO it is not Gods will to ever heal you. And still people throwing away those hundreds to strive to find any hint that those hundreds may be wrong and in the mean time working to speak against the will of God, the promises of God, the word of God, the work of the blood of Christ, to break down the faith of the faithful who desire to cast all cares upon Him and let Him be their salvation.


Now I am not saying never go to a doctor- If you do not yet have faith then go to men but do not be content to that end, do not be against the word of God but fill yourself with it so your faith will become full and you can mature in the Lord to walk in a deeper bolder stronger faith day by day. Trust Him first with something not dangerous, and fight the good fight of faith. Do not be content to trust in men, and do not be against the brethern who do not wish to trsut in men at all.

We are told that Gods promises are YES and AMEN- they are NOT YEA AND NAY!!!!!


2Cr 1:20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.


He is faithful amen

 

[glorydaz]

There are a lot of things more important than our physical healing.
I've seen people suffer from the condemnation of their fellow believers who have questioned their faith because they weren't healed. I've seen false claims of healing in order to avoid being judged lacking in faith. God certainly can heal, but many times He doesn't. And why? A lack of faith? No, but for higher purposes. God's purposes are many...a few of which are these....

That we may share in Christ's suffering.

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

So we can draw closer to the Lord.

My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

So the Lord can work patience in our hearts.

My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

So we can be a testimony of God's mercy when we trust in Him in spite of our infirmity.

Shew me a token for good; that they which hate me may see it, and be ashamed: because thou, LORD, hast holpen me, and comforted me.

 

[toddm]

I guess we could say Pauls 'thorn' was 'sin', could we not ?

I would say "not". Paul would not boast in sin. I do affirm that it was LIKELY a physical ailment. The word used for "torment" in "a messenger of Satan sent to torment me" is the Greek word "kolaphidze" which literally means "to strike w/ a fist". Interesting, eh?

 

[follower of Christ]

The thorn in pauls flesh was without a doubt not his eye sight.

Thats pretty funny.
So YOURE right and some scholars are wrong.
I hardly think you can say 'without a doubt' in the matter, friend ;)

thorn in the flesh is a biblical ot term that God used to warn the Israelites and the word of God itself tells us its meaning.The meaning of having a thorn in the side or in the flesh is the people who they failed to remove from their promised land would forever be a thorn in their side or their flesh.

Huh...really ?
Any actual scriptural evidence for this theory ?

Paul says that the thorn in His flesh was a MESSENGER OF SATAN.- messenger is the same word for ANGEL.-

Irrelevant. The INTENT could be metaphor...you know, a figure of speech ;)

So this was an ANGEL OF SATAN given to be a thorn in pauls flesh(just as in the OT it was physical people who were in their physical promised land.) This angel was given to BUFFET him.

Poor eyesight would 'fight against' Paul in that day and age.

If we would JUST READ THE CONTEXT Paul tells us what this " messenger of satan" caused!

2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

And THERE you go...'infirmities'...and 'weakness' which I ALREADY detailed out in this thread not once but twice

This is not anything to do with eye sight,

In your opinion it isnt.

it is about the constant persecutions Paul was under everywhere he went.

Wrong.
Paul mentions 'infirmities' and 'weakness' which I presented already is the same wording as when Paul speaks about his eyes.

Paul said this is what happened to BUFFET Him,- The same thing happened to Christ Jesus, He was buffetted through persecutiuon.

Hmmm....and did Christ also have a 'thorn' in His flesh

 

[follower of Christ]

I will require scripture that says or shows directly that there are faithful disciples of God that God wills NOT to heal or apply His promises to.

There is no scriptural example of this, there is no one who believed who was told sorry its not Gods will, There is no doctrine that says God wills to heal some faithful but not other faithful.

OH PLEASE !
You KNOW you are placing UNREASONABLE DEMANDS on the texts, friend.
My guess is that is precisely your objective.

It doesnt matter what YOU require, G....WE READ Gods word to understand it as a WHOLE.
It is IRRELEVANT if that whole doesnt SAY in exact words 'NOT ALL WILL BE HEALED'.
The FACT IS that we CAN SEE those in the church who HAVE NOT BEEN HEALED with OUR own eyes.

good grief. The desperation is evident here.

 

[Cornelius]

There are a lot of things more important than our physical healing.

We cannot use a statement like that to argue against God healing.

GodspromisesRyes confirmed what I wrote about Paul's thorn. We can all read it for ourselves that indeed it was a demon (angel) of Satan that came against him all the time, to keep him humble and weak.

 

[follower of Christ]

We need to stand on the word of God by which our faith grows. Not on what we have seen or heard or have not seen or heard from men.

Youre right.
And GODS word does NOT make promises that ALL will be healed.
That is YOUR addition to the text, Im afraid and the burden of proof is on YOU to show that ALL will be healed.

It is very sad that today so many christians believe that men are more faithful than God.
That it is safer to see men about your health and take their tests and medicines and surgeries, than to trust our saviour, creator, beloved,Lord,and God.

And here we go with the ad hominems. :bigfrown

But that Gods promises could just willy nilly

Hardly.
GOD simply has NOT promised what YOU and C claim He has....sorry, but do YOU have a passage that says 'God WILL HEAL ALL who have faith' ?
;)

 

[follower of Christ]

There are a lot of things more important than our physical healing.

We cannot use a statement like that to argue against God healing.

GodspromisesRyes confirmed what I wrote about Paul's thorn. We can all read it for ourselves that indeed it was a demon (angel) of Satan that came against him all the time, to keep him humble and weak.

No friend, G may have agreed with YOUR view, but so what ? Its apparent G agrees with your error to begin with.

 

[glorydaz]

There are a lot of things more important than our physical healing.

We cannot use a statement like that to argue against God healing.

GodspromisesRyes confirmed what I wrote about Paul's thorn. We can all read it for ourselves that indeed it was a demon (angel) of Satan that came against him all the time, to keep him humble and weak.

Yes, he did...but I'm not buying it.

And, I wasn't arguing against God's healing...I was pointing out that healing is only one of God's options. He cares more for our eternal soul than he does about these temporary tents we live in.

 

[glorydaz]

The thorn in pauls flesh was without a doubt not his eye sight.

Thats pretty funny.
So YOURE right and some scholars are wrong.
I hardly think you can say 'without a doubt' in the matter, friend ;)

thorn in the flesh is a biblical ot term that God used to warn the Israelites and the word of God itself tells us its meaning.The meaning of having a thorn in the side or in the flesh is the people who they failed to remove from their promised land would forever be a thorn in their side or their flesh.

Huh...really ?
Any actual scriptural evidence for this theory ?

[quote:1m7gw90v]Paul says that the thorn in His flesh was a MESSENGER OF SATAN.- messenger is the same word for ANGEL.-

Irrelevant. The INTENT could be metaphor...you know, a figure of speech ;)

So this was an ANGEL OF SATAN given to be a thorn in pauls flesh(just as in the OT it was physical people who were in their physical promised land.) This angel was given to BUFFET him.

Poor eyesight would 'fight against' Paul in that day and age.

If we would JUST READ THE CONTEXT Paul tells us what this " messenger of satan" caused!

2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

And THERE you go...'infirmities'...and 'weakness' which I ALREADY detailed out in this thread not once but twice

This is not anything to do with eye sight,

In your opinion it isnt.

it is about the constant persecutions Paul was under everywhere he went.

Wrong.
Paul mentions 'infirmities' and 'weakness' which I presented already is the same wording as when Paul speaks about his eyes.

Paul said this is what happened to BUFFET Him,- The same thing happened to Christ Jesus, He was buffetted through persecutiuon.

Hmmm....and did Christ also have a 'thorn' in His flesh [/quote:1m7gw90v]
I totally agree with you...especially after the evidence you presented.
His eyesight makes the most sense of anything I've heard.

 

[follower of Christ]

Maybe His arm is shortened or His power was left 2000 yrs ago.

no...not at all.
He just has some of His followers making promises for Him that HE never made

This is truly a sad state.

Youre right...it IS a sad state when we create godless fallacy that destroys the faith of those who arent healed.

The word of God is full of hundreds of promises

Ok then.
SHOW US WHERE IT SAYS 'ALL WILL BE HEALED', poster..and then we will believe...*IF* it actually says in context what we demand it say

and examples on physical healing by the will of God to faithful repentant forgiving belivers.

And there are examples of seas being parted.....does that mean we ALL will part the seas ????

We are told that Gods promises are YES and AMEN- they are NOT YEA AND NAY!!!!!

Show is the money, G....WHERE is this promise that God WILL heal ALL of us ?????

2Cr 1:20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.


He is faithful amen

He IS faithful to keep HIS promises....NOT the promises YOU made for HIm

.

 

[follower of Christ]

I totally agree with you...especially after the evidence you presented.
His eyesight makes the most sense of anything I've heard.

Bear in mind its just a thought and by no means am I saying its the case.
Not even scholars who dedicated their lives to the study of scripture will make an absolute claim about this thorn...at least not the honest ones who can admit that we simply are guessing at best.

What I dont believe is that Jesus turned Paul over to a demon as some here believe.
Its more likely, given ALL of the details, that Paul was fighting against his own body....ie his eyesight....rather than believing that Paul was given over to demons by Christ.

Also, 'grace' is something that is applied to sin. Jesus saying 'my grace is sufficient' also brings other theories into view, especially given that Paul tells us of his battle with his flesh in Romans 7.
Again, just theories....

 

[Cornelius]

And, I wasn't arguing against God's healing...I was pointing out that healing is only one of God's options. He cares more for our eternal soul than he does about these temporary tents we live in.

So which other parts of the curse did Jesus fail to take away, when He took it upon Himself? You have now proved He failed to conquer the curse regarding health. I would just like to cut out the other irrelevant promises as well.

I must now wonder if the promise of salvation is maybe also in doubt. Why did He procure us that, if He failed in something that is more simple than that? I think this whole gospel thing might be a lot of junk. What do you think You seem to agree.

 

[follower of Christ]

So which other parts of the curse did Jesus fail to take away, when He took it upon Himself?

Are you SERIOUS, C ?>

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

When did 'death' enter the picture, C?

For since by a man death came, also by a Man comes the resurrection of the dead.
(1 Corinthians 15:21 EMTV)


And to Adam He said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it! The ground is cursed for your sake. In pain shall you eat of it all the days of your life. It shall also bring forth thorns and thistles to you, and you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.
(Genesis 3:17-19 MKJV)

Seems like someone forgot something there, friend ;)


.

 

[follower of Christ]

I must now wonder if the promise of salvation is maybe also in doubt.

Ah yes, it is inevitable that when someone preaching fallacy isnt agreed with that they turn to exaggeration for shock value.

I have already shown that the 'power' of the God is the gospel to salvation.
Salvation IS the REASON for the good news. We hardly cast doubt on THAT fact simply because we refuse to agree with heresies.

 

[Cornelius]

I have already shown that the 'power' of the God is the gospel to salvation.
Salvation IS the REASON for the good news. We hardly cast doubt on THAT fact simply because we refuse to agree with heresies.

What salvation? Saved from what? Do you believe in salvation? Why? Because you cannot see it? Why is it real? It written in the same book that writes about healing. If the healing scriptures are bunk, then so is your salvation scriptures.

 

[follower of Christ]

What salvation? Saved from what?

Oh good grief, C....is THIS where this is headed ? Playing games to distract ?
I think we ALL know here what we are being saved 'from'. ;)

Do you believe in salvation? Why? Because you cannot see it? Why is it real? It written in the same book that writes about healing. If the healing scriptures are bunk, then so is your salvation scriptures.

Ugh....
Sorry chap, but NO ONE HERE said that healing passages are 'bunk'.
Could you try to be any more intellectually dishonest in this discussion ?

We simply do NOT agree to YOUR distortions and ADDITIONS that ALL WILL be healed..
Is this clear enough yet ?

 

[Cornelius]

We simply do NOT agree to YOUR distortions and ADDITIONS that ALL WILL be healed..
Is this clear enough yet ?

Yes it is clear now. Not all Christians have been delivered from the curse, so not all will be healed. Only some have been delivered from the curse and THEY will be healed. Am I getting it now? This is what you are saying ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes it is clear now. Not all Christians have been delivered from the curse, so not all will be healed.

And so to make your claims consistent with scripture we have to believe that your error states that you ALSO have been 'delivered' from the 'curse' of physical death, yet scripture shows that ALL are appointed once to die...

One thing I LOVE about false doctrines. They cannot help but foul themselves up.

Only some have been delivered from the curse and THEY will be healed. Am I getting it now? This is what you are saying ?

Apparently youre leaving some of the components of the curse, chap...which is death.

Oddly we see that part of the ACTUAL curse is death...and we also see that we ALL are still appointed once to die....so VERY clearly something about YOUR version of the 'curse' is VERY wrong ;)

we done here ?

.