Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Call No Man Father

NO!

One reason it can not be Mary is tha Mary did not experience any of the things listed in Rev. 12.

Another reason why it will be impossible for the YOU as a Catholic to say Mary is that woman of Revelation chapter 12, is that verse 17 goes on to say that she has 'offspring' (seed) further to the male child born to her in heaven and snatched away to God's throne.

Now
If Christ was literally her 'seed', then how come she bore others, as 'the rest of her seed'?

Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 name four men called Jesus' brethren: James, Joses, Simon, and Judas called Jude. Verse 56 mentions that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named1. The brothers and sisters of the Lord are also mentioned in Matthew 12:46-50, Luke 8:19, John 2:12, 7:3, Acts 1:14, 1 Cor. 9:5, and Galatians 1:19.

The three major views have come to be known by the names of their fourth-century proponents:
Helvidius, Epiphanius and Jerome. The Helvidian view, which probably most modern exegetes, even including some Roman Catholic scholars, hold, is that the brothers were sons of Joseph and Mary, born after Jesus.
They of course would be His 1/2 brothers and sisters.

Source: J.P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, vol. 1 (New York: Doubleday, 1991), pp. 316–332; and ‘The Brothers and Sisters of Jesus in Ecumenical Perspective’, Catholic Biblical Quarterly 54 (1992), 1–28.
Rev 12:17
Spiritual children of a spiritual mother
 
Not following along very well....
But the CC does follow the teaching of Ephesians 2:8....

We are saved by God's grace.....
through our faith.

And all 3 are gifts:
Grace
Faith
Salvation
No sir that is incorrect.

The Catholic church says/teaches/believes that we are save through grace by faith PLUS water baptism and works that we must do.

1257 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

What this means is that the only ordinary means that the Church knows of by which a person is to be saved is the sacrament of baptism (CCC 1257).
Source:https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-baptism-necessary-for-salvation-or-not

The Council of Trent----Session 6, canon 1 says..........
“If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema” (Session 6: can. 9).
 
Rev 12:17
Spiritual children of a spiritual mother
Again....you are incorrect.

Revelation 12:17.......
" And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

There is not one single word in that Scripture that says..."Spiritual children of a spiritual mother".

Take time to read and study and investigate te literal words of that Scripture. When you do you will understand that This description is of the rest of the woman's PHYSICAL offspring and clearly identifies believers in Jesus. They may be a group of Jews, and possibly also Gentiles, who welcomed the message of the 144,000 identified in chapter 7. The tribulation period certainly leaves no room for wishy-washing professors of Christ. The severe trials of the tribulation will demonstrate genuine faith. As the apostle Peter explained, faith that is tried proves its genuineness and results in "praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:7).
 
The NT DOES state that baptism is necessary for entry into the New Covenant.
Jesus Himself ordered the Apostles to baptize in the Great Commission in Matthew 28:19.

Acts 2:38 states that we are to believe and be baptized.

Acts 22:16 states that we are to be baptized in order to wash away our sins.

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes AND is baptized will be saved


In Protestantism baptism is seen as a SIGN of something that is happening in the interior of man.
Catholics see every sacrament as being something real and given by God for a reason.

I tend to agree with the CC on this.
I think they have many concepts/teachings correct and we've watered them down.
My opinion.
I do not want to appear to be argumentitive with anyone, however...NO WHERE in the Bible does it sate that water baptism is required for a man to be saved.

All the Scriptures you posted actually say that baptism is something that a man who IS SAVED wants to do after he accepts Christ and NOT a part of the salvation process.

Acts 2:38 makes it clear that baptism is vitally important, and it certainly is. But other passages show repentance involves placing saving faith in Christ.

Acts 22:16--- As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Then, just as part of the learning process, may I say to you that the book of Acts presents a transition period where God’s focus turns from Israel to the Church. The 1st Church as well as ALL of the disciples were first Jews. The events recorded in Acts are not always normative. With regard to receiving the Holy Spirit, the norm is that a person receives and is permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. in the Lord Jesus Christ. Then, at a later time that person is encouraged to be baptized as an outward showing of an inward decision.
 
NO!

One reason it can not be Mary is tha Mary did not experience any of the things listed in Rev. 12.

Another reason why it will be impossible for the YOU as a Catholic to say Mary is that woman of Revelation chapter 12, is that verse 17 goes on to say that she has 'offspring' (seed) further to the male child born to her in heaven and snatched away to God's throne.

Now
If Christ was literally her 'seed', then how come she bore others, as 'the rest of her seed'?

Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 name four men called Jesus' brethren: James, Joses, Simon, and Judas called Jude. Verse 56 mentions that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named1. The brothers and sisters of the Lord are also mentioned in Matthew 12:46-50, Luke 8:19, John 2:12, 7:3, Acts 1:14, 1 Cor. 9:5, and Galatians 1:19.

The three major views have come to be known by the names of their fourth-century proponents:
Helvidius, Epiphanius and Jerome. The Helvidian view, which probably most modern exegetes, even including some Roman Catholic scholars, hold, is that the brothers were sons of Joseph and Mary, born after Jesus.
They of course would be His 1/2 brothers and sisters.

Source: J.P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, vol. 1 (New York: Doubleday, 1991), pp. 316–332; and ‘The Brothers and Sisters of Jesus in Ecumenical Perspective’, Catholic Biblical Quarterly 54 (1992), 1–28.
No way Mary is a perpetual virgin by apostolic authority that chirst endowed his church with verified by scripture Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18
No sex Lk 1:34

They may be brothers of Jesus but they may not be children of Mary!

Cousins: in Hebrew culture any close relative is called brother

NO!

One reason it can not be Mary is tha Mary did not experience any of the things listed in Rev. 12.

Another reason why it will be impossible for the YOU as a Catholic to say Mary is that woman of Revelation chapter 12, is that verse 17 goes on to say that she has 'offspring' (seed) further to the male child born to her in heaven and snatched away to God's throne.

Now
If Christ was literally her 'seed', then how come she bore others, as 'the rest of her seed'?

Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 name four men called Jesus' brethren: James, Joses, Simon, and Judas called Jude. Verse 56 mentions that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named1. The brothers and sisters of the Lord are also mentioned in Matthew 12:46-50, Luke 8:19, John 2:12, 7:3, Acts 1:14, 1 Cor. 9:5, and Galatians 1:19.

The three major views have come to be known by the names of their fourth-century proponents:
Helvidius, Epiphanius and Jerome. The Helvidian view, which probably most modern exegetes, even including some Roman Catholic scholars, hold, is that the brothers were sons of Joseph and Mary, born after Jesus.
They of course would be His 1/2 brothers and sisters.

Source: J.P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, vol. 1 (New York: Doubleday, 1991), pp. 316–332; and ‘The Brothers and Sisters of Jesus in Ecumenical Perspective’, Catholic Biblical Quarterly 54 (1992), 1–28.
No not children of mary

Any close relation in Hebrew culture can be called brothers

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Brothers of Jesus Not the children of Mary!

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

Acts 4:36
And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

(Cannot be Mary’s child, Mary was of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!) Lk 1:32-33

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

Lk 24:10 another mother of James not Mary the mother of Jesus Christ!

Mk 15:1 & Mk 15:47 mother of Joses not Mary the mother of Jesus Christ!


The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).

Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.

Only God can be born of a Virgin-mother!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!
 
1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."
1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."

The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of "him who strengthens" us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth "fruits that befit repentance." These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.



So nice to speak to a Christian that understands Catholicism and speaks of it in a respectful tone.

I posted what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states about penance.
I'm not Catholic and won't bore you with details, but I do want to state that when I've gone to confession I was never given penance to do. The priest uses what he knows about the confessee (?) to try to help them understand the particular sin that is being discussed at the moment. Maybe it IS necessary for some personal action to take place...maybe not.

However, that action is not a CONDITION to being forgiven.
The person is forgiven as soon as absolution is performed by the words of the priest.

Also, I wouldn't say it's a work....
Maybe more like an offering....

Wonder if donadams would care to add anything....
Thank you or the kind words. As I have said.....I do not argue and I only speak to what the Bible actually says.

I appreciate your post, however....the fact that a Catholic believe that a man can absolve their sins is the 1st problem.

Now lets talk facts. Penance is one of the sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church.
The fact is simply that It is used as a form of discipline or punishment imposed on a person to demonstrate repentance for his or her sins.

Fact is that usually, the act of penance as done and seen in the Catholic church takes the form of praying certain prayers a specified number of times, fasting, or spending time in front of an altar. Please understand that this is unbiblical. It is completely a Catholic church teaching.

Nowhere does Scripture teach that performing works or punishing oneself will make restitution for sin. The Bible does teach us to repent i Acts 11:18; Acts 20:21: Luke 15:7. To repent means to have a change of mind or a change in attitude toward God. Repentance of sin is accompanied by faith in Jesus Christ; they are inseparable and can not be added to.
 
Revelation:
Do not add to or take away from this book....

However, we absolutely can take that to mean ALL books in the bible..although I do believe John was referring to the NT.


(there was no NT at that time....I mean all the written letters that were circulating).
You are correct and I agree.

However, when we read Deuteronomy 4:2........."
"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you."

Now we can see that God's command applies to the whole, completed Word of God.

"Subtraction" is not the problem. "Addition" is the problem. When we ADD to what God said then we have crossed the line.

Addition to the Word of God include things such as.......
1. Baptism is need to be save.
2. Babies must be baptized to go to heaven.
3. Works are need to be saved.
4. Mary's conception was immacualte.
5. Mary was born without sin and never sinned.
6. Mary was a perpetual virgin.
7. The Pope is the vicar of Christ.
8. Apostles today.

I can go on and on but I think that the point is made.
 
You almost got it right.

Truth comes from Christ and was written in the Words of God and that Word was closed when the Last Apostle, John died.

An open canon would allow books or passages of Scripture to be added to the Bible through continued or ongoing revelation. By adding books to the canon, we would essentially be saying that the current Bible is incomplete, or lacking in some way.

Proverbs 30:5–6 cautions us not to add to God’s words:......
“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.”

Deuteronomy 4:2 warns us not to add or to take away from God’s commands:........
“Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you”.
But the authority of the apostles continues till Christ returns

Two edge sword to proclaim the truth & to condemn all errors!
 
No way Mary is a perpetual virgin by apostolic authority that chirst endowed his church with verified by scripture Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18
No sex Lk 1:34

They may be brothers of Jesus but they may not be children of Mary!

Cousins: in Hebrew culture any close relative is called brother


No not children of mary

Any close relation in Hebrew culture can be called brothers

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Brothers of Jesus Not the children of Mary!

Matthew 13:55
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Matthew 27:56
Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children.

Acts 4:36
And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

(Cannot be Mary’s child, Mary was of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!) Lk 1:32-33

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

Lk 24:10 another mother of James not Mary the mother of Jesus Christ!

Mk 15:1 & Mk 15:47 mother of Joses not Mary the mother of Jesus Christ!


The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).

Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.

Only God can be born of a Virgin-mother!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!
With all due respect, you are completely ignoring and changing the literal, actual words of the original Greek to make your point.

I totally understand that you MUST quote Catholic teachings given to you, however I only accept Bible Scriptures and what you have posted is all Catholic dogma.

Now, please understand....I am not trying to be a know-it-all and I am not trying to argue.

That being said, please allow me to teach you the Bible. In the Bible, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. Its normal, accepted and literal meaning is a physical brother. It does not mean or tanslate as "Cousin!"

Please understand that t
here is a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used!!!!

Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers.
 
You are a Catholic and you want me to explain what "Penance" is?????

OK.....Penance in the Catholic church is when you go to confession, and confess your sins to the priest and ask for absolution - which is forgiveness of your sin, the priest will put a condition on that forgiveness such as saying a certain number of prayers, or doing something to rectify the harm caused by the sin. For example, if you stole some money, the penence might be having to pay back what you stole.

Now This is unbiblical. Nowhere does Scripture teach that performing works or punishing oneself will make restitution for sin but of course I am sure you know that.

Luke 5:20 has nothing whatsoever to do with the Catholic teachings of Penance.

The Bible does teach us to repent. To repent means to have a change of mind or a change in attitude toward God. Repentance of sin is accompanied by faith in Jesus Christ; they are inseparable.

The Catholic teaching of “doing penance” as a means of atoning for sin or of appeasing God is nowhere taught in the Bible. It is not our works that make us right with God. In fact, our works are considered as nothing more than “filthy rags” in His eyes (Isaiah 64:6). It is the blood of Christ that makes us right.
And the grace to do penance is from Christ’s merits of his blood
The church does what Christ does
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

We participate with Christ in the redemption of the world
 
And the grace to do penance is from Christ’s merits of his blood
The church does what Christ does
Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

We participate with Christ in the redemption of the world
There is NO Biblical requirement too do anything to be forgiven of sin.

Penance is not Biblical!
 
No sir, that is not Biblically true.

"ALL" sin separates us from God.

You said.........
"You can teach me anything from scripture".
Thank you for that. It is all that I am trying to do.

Now that being said, may I knoe say to all who read this that All sins are the same in the sense that each renders a person guilty and worthy of God’s wrath.

Consider James 2:10.........
"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."

The root of all sin is autonomy and replacement of God with ourselves and what we want to do. However small a sin may seem, it is an assertion that the person is acting independently of God.

Remember, all Adam and Eve did was to eat a piece of fruit, however the Eating of the piece of fruit from a tree in the garden, might not seem immoral and may seem minor compared to other crimes, but it was an act of disobeying the Word of God that had grave consequences for the human race.

So then, according to the written Word of God, in terms of our legal standing before God, any one sin, even what may seem to be a very small one, makes us legally guilty before God and therefore worthy of eternal punishment. Even one sin against an infinitely holy God demands an infinite punishment.

What then is the wages of sin?????

Romans 6:23......."The wages of sin is death" and death in the Bible means = Eternal Seperation from God.
Then was is a sun. It unto death?
 
No sir, that is not correct Biblically.

Ephesians 2:8 has everything to do with accepting Christ.

Please read the Scripture......"You are saved by grace and not of yourselves".

The ONLY way to understand that is to grasp that "Saved" means we accept Christ and we are then saved from the judgment. Again...READ the Scripture!

Ther is my friend not one single Scripture that says water baptism is part of the salvation experience!

Please understand that quoting Catholic council products is meaningless!!!
How can it when it says plainly: “not of yourselves”?

I get scripture is your only authority but other things are illustrative

But even decrees of councils, creeds and dogma have authority from christ in scripture

Thks
 
They are self explanatory.
Matt 26...Peter was still unconverted, and walking in the flesh when Jesus gave that exhortation.
Gal 5...Gives us the means of identifying who is, or is not, true to God.
1 John 5...gives us the means to allow sinners to become non-sinners.
Already saved so you think

What about the beatitudes? Are they required for salvation or those who are saved?
 
NOPE!

There is NO Scripture that says Jesus appointed a pope. IN FACT THE WORD POPE is not found anywhere in the Bible.
Pope is papa from the Italian for father as Isa 22:21-22 says
 
Again......You are incorrect.

"ALL"..."ANY" sin seperates man from God!
You have failed to explain how there is sin that is not unto death?

1 Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
 
No sir that is incorrect.

The Catholic church says/teaches/believes that we are save through grace by faith PLUS water baptism and works that we must do.

1257 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

What this means is that the only ordinary means that the Church knows of by which a person is to be saved is the sacrament of baptism (CCC 1257).
Source:https://www.catholic.com/qa/is-baptism-necessary-for-salvation-or-not

The Council of Trent----Session 6, canon 1 says..........
“If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema” (Session 6: can. 9).
Mk 16:16 faith and baptism
Eph 4:5 faith and baptism
Acts 8:36 faith and baptism
(How did the eunuch know about baptism if Philip preached faith alone?)
Acts 22:16 wash away sin in baptism
1 pet 3:20/21 baptism saves

Thks
 
Back
Top