Call No Man Father

[donadams]

Much TOOOOO long of a post to be considered.

I will however respond to .......
"Ok answer the questions if it’s “faith alone” or provide some early church teachers that say what you do" but the rest I have to ignore.

1st of all, the idea that "Saved by faith alone" is not in the Bible and you as a Catholic hang your hat on that is laughable!!!!

The Immaculate Conception of Mary is not in the Bible but YOU believe it.
The Assumption of Mary id not in the Bible but you believe it.
The word POPE is not in the Bible but you believe it.
The teaching of the celibacy of priests is not in the Bible but you believe it.

The word here that you are not seeing is....."CONSISTANCY".

Now, as to "faith alone".......rejecting the doctrine of salvation by faith alone based James 2:24 has two major problems.

First, the context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

Second, the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

Example.....As a Catholic you believe in the Trinity but that word is also not in the Bible.
CONSISTANCY!

While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone.

Consider John 3:16 where it declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.”

Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”

See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other verses could be referenced in addition to these.

Having said that may I say to you that James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word.

James’s point is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do (James 2:18). Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement.

​

Now I hope that you understand that I am not specifically posting this to YOU, but to those who read these posts all over the world so that they can read the correct BIBLE doctrines and not just Catholic theology.

You forgot purgatory!

No Jn 3:16 is not “faith alone” but includes baptism and everything that Christ revealed and commanded by Christ to his church to teach all men. Matt 28:19

 

[Rodger]

You forgot purgatory!

No Jn 3:16 is not “faith alone” but includes baptism and everything that Christ revealed and commanded by Christ to his church to teach all men. Matt 28:19

Right!

You believe in Purgatory and it is not in the Bible.

Do you want me to post the other 6 dozen non-Biblical practices you believe?

 

[donadams]

Much TOOOOO long of a post to be considered.

I will however respond to .......
"Ok answer the questions if it’s “faith alone” or provide some early church teachers that say what you do" but the rest I have to ignore.

1st of all, the idea that "Saved by faith alone" is not in the Bible and you as a Catholic hang your hat on that is laughable!!!!

The Immaculate Conception of Mary is not in the Bible but YOU believe it.
The Assumption of Mary id not in the Bible but you believe it.
The word POPE is not in the Bible but you believe it.
The teaching of the celibacy of priests is not in the Bible but you believe it.

The word here that you are not seeing is....."CONSISTANCY".

Now, as to "faith alone".......rejecting the doctrine of salvation by faith alone based James 2:24 has two major problems.

First, the context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

Second, the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

Example.....As a Catholic you believe in the Trinity but that word is also not in the Bible.
CONSISTANCY!

While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone.

Consider John 3:16 where it declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.”

Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”

See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other verses could be referenced in addition to these.

Having said that may I say to you that James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word.

James’s point is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do (James 2:18). Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement.

​

Now I hope that you understand that I am not specifically posting this to YOU, but to those who read these posts all over the world so that they can read the correct BIBLE doctrines and not just Catholic theology.

Never alone! Always together!

Inseparable!

Romans 5:5

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.


Deut. 6:5
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

1 cor 13:2 all faith without charity avails nothing.

1 cor 13:12 now abide faith, hope, and charity, and the greatest of these is charity.

If salvation was by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!!!

If we are saved by faith alone then when we first believed we would be saved?

Romans 13:11
…our salvation nearer than when we believed.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

 

[donadams]

Scripture opposes the doctrine of “Faith alone”!

Mk 16:16 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 water & the spirit
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
acts 2:38-39 repentance & baptism
acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
acts 22:16 name of the Lord & baptism
rom 10:10 faith & confession
1 cor 13:2 faith & charity
1 cor 13:13 faith, hope, & charity
1 cor 16:22 love of Jesus Christ
Rom 8:17 faith and suffering
2 Timothy 2:12
1 thes 1:3 faith, love, patience / 2 thes 1:4 / 1 Tim 6:11 /
Col 1:24 sufferings
Philemon 1:5 love and faith
Phil 1:29 called to suffer not faith alone
Titus 2:2 faith, love, patience
James 2:24 faith & works
Heb 6:12 faith & patience / rev 13:10
Rev 2:19 works, charity, service, faith, patience
Rev 12:17 testimony of Jesus & commandments
Rev 2:19 & rev 13:10 & Rev 14:12 commandments & patience
Three things are eternal! 1 cor 13:13

Faith, Hope, & Charity!

 

[donadams]

Christ alone:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 4:24
But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Not Christ alone must also believe on the Father who sent Christ!

 

[donadams]

Christians receive glory:
1 cor 2:7
rom 8:30
2 thes 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints…
2 thes 2:14
Eph 3:16 His glory
1 pet 1:7 praise and honour and glory
1 pet 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1 pet 5:10
Romans 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Jn 17:22 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Now if one sola be false they all be false! Amen!

 

[donadams]

Verses of scripture that oppose Scripture alone


Matt 5:14 are the apostles the light (truth) of the world or “scripture alone”?
Matt 6:33 must we seek the truth in the kingdom or “scripture alone”?
Matt 13:11 do the apostles know these or “scripture alone”?
Matt 18:17 must we hear the church or “scripture alone”?
Matt 28:19 do the apostles have the truth they are commanded to teach or “scripture alone”?
Lk 1:4 are we to be instructed or search and make our own doctrine according to “scripture alone”?
Lk 10:16 is the teaching of the apostles the teaching of Christ or “scripture alone”?
Jn 1:18 revealed by Christ not scripture alone?

 

[donadams]

Jn 8:32 do the apostles know the truth or “scripture alone”?
Jn 16:13 apostles are lead into all truth or “scripture alone”?
Jn 20:21 do the apostles have the same authority as Christ or “scripture alone”?
Acts 1:8 are the apostles the witnesses of Christ or “scripture alone”?
Acts 2:42 believe the apostles doctrine or “scripture alone”?
Acts 8:26 did God send and apostle or “scripture alone”?
Acts 8:31 must a man teach or “scripture alone”?
Acts 18:25 was he instructed or just read “scripture alone”?
Rom 10:15 preaching of the apostles or “scripture alone”?
1 cor 11:23 handed down tradition or “scripture alone”?
2 thes 2:2 word, letter or “scripture alone”?
2 thes 2:15 tradition (oral and a scripture) or “scripture alone”?
*this one alone is enough to refute “sola scriptura “!
Col 2:7 taught or “scripture alone”?
Eph 4:5 the faith revealed by Christ or “scripture alone”?

 

[donadams]

Jn 8:32 do the apostles know the truth or “scripture alone”?
Jn 16:13 apostles are lead into all truth or “scripture alone”?
Jn 20:21 do the apostles have the same authority as Christ or “scripture alone”?
Acts 1:8 are the apostles the witnesses of Christ or “scripture alone”?
Acts 2:42 believe the apostles doctrine or “scripture alone”?
Acts 8:26 did God send and apostle or “scripture alone”?
Acts 8:31 must a man teach or “scripture alone”?
Acts 18:25 was he instructed or just read “scripture alone”?
Rom 10:15 preaching of the apostles or “scripture alone”?
1 cor 11:23 handed down tradition or “scripture alone”?
2 thes 2:2 word, letter or “scripture alone”?
2 thes 2:15 tradition (oral and a scripture) or “scripture alone”?
*this one alone is enough to refute “sola scriptura “!
Col 2:7 taught or “scripture alone”?
Eph 4:5 the faith revealed by Christ or “scripture alone”?

 

[donadams]

Heb 13:7 spoken the word of God or “scripture alone”?
Heb 13:17 do they teach you the faith or “scripture alone”?
1 Tim 3:15 is the church the pillar of truth or “scripture alone”?
1 Jn 1:3-5 declared unto you or you read “scripture alone”?
1 Jn 4:6 hear the apostles or “scripture alone”?
2 Jn 1:12 face to face with apostle or “scripture alone”?
Jude 1:3 the faith revealed by tradition (handed) to the apostles or “scripture alone”?

 

[donadams]

Much TOOOOO long of a post to be considered.

I will however respond to .......
"Ok answer the questions if it’s “faith alone” or provide some early church teachers that say what you do" but the rest I have to ignore.

1st of all, the idea that "Saved by faith alone" is not in the Bible and you as a Catholic hang your hat on that is laughable!!!!

The Immaculate Conception of Mary is not in the Bible but YOU believe it.
The Assumption of Mary id not in the Bible but you believe it.
The word POPE is not in the Bible but you believe it.
The teaching of the celibacy of priests is not in the Bible but you believe it.

The word here that you are not seeing is....."CONSISTANCY".

Now, as to "faith alone".......rejecting the doctrine of salvation by faith alone based James 2:24 has two major problems.

First, the context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

Second, the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone.

Example.....As a Catholic you believe in the Trinity but that word is also not in the Bible.
CONSISTANCY!

While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone.

Consider John 3:16 where it declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.”

Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”

See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other verses could be referenced in addition to these.

Having said that may I say to you that James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word.

James’s point is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do (James 2:18). Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement.

​

Now I hope that you understand that I am not specifically posting this to YOU, but to those who read these posts all over the world so that they can read the correct BIBLE doctrines and not just Catholic theology.

TMI
The nature is f apologetics is info and documentation

And they are big subjects
Baptism is the biggest of all and we have not even discussed infant baptism

Thks

 

[donadams]

You did not answer the question of where and when did Mary go into the wilderness????

Quoting Catholic theologians is not an answer.

In Rev. 12, the woman there is given the wings of an eagle to aid her in her escape.
When did that happen to Mary??????

Rev. 12 says that the serpent sweeps away that woman with a flood.
When did that happen to Mary????

Rev. 12 then says the earth opens up and swallows the river.
When did that happen to Mary??????

Rev. 12 Finally, of course, says she escapes into the wilderness, where she is nourished by her God.
When did that happen to Mary???????????

Can you supply any evidence that it reflects what Mary herself experienced in person????

However, you have used "Fath Alone: not being in the Bible often so then lets have you consider that Rev 12:2.

It is clearly not about the Virgin Mary. AS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE.

The facts are that in Rev. 12:2 we actually read “being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.”

The coming of the sinless one cannot defile anyone nor bring to the woman pain in childbearing, which is the curse of Eve’s sin. So, Rev 12:2 is clearly about Israel, who “having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise” (Heb 11:39) but endured painful persecution waiting for the coming of the Lord.

In short, Rev.12: 2 is a reference to persecutions before the time of Christ.

Rev 12 is Gen 3:15 writ large
Mary is Satan’s adversary!

 

[donadams]

My dear friend.....With all love and respect, Please consider what you said.

You said.....
"In post #444, you said baptism was the first act of obedience after we are saved.
Now you say it isn't a requirement to be saved."

Again, and I will try to make what I said clear and simpler......
baptism is what we should do after we are saved because it is what Jesus commanded us to do. Therefore IMHO it is a command. For 50 years I always insisted that a lost man coming to Christ follow up in believers baptism, NOT to be saved but because they were saved.

I DID NOT say it was a requirement! I said it was something we do because we have accepted Christ as our Saviour.

I led several men to Christ on the battle field and many more sick and infirmed on their death bed to Christ and they were not baptised but I will see them in heaven because they accepted Christ by faith before they died.

Christ says it is a requirement
Mk 16:16

 

[GodsGrace]

Right!

You believe in Purgatory and it is not in the Bible.

Do you want me to post the other 6 dozen non-Biblical practices you believe?

I don't really want to discuss this...
but a Catholic will tell you exactly where in the OT and NT you can fnd purgatory.

John says in Revelation that nothing impure will enter into heaven.
Why would he say that if he believed we're purified by Jesus sacrifice?

There's some considering to do here.

 

[GodsGrace]

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."
1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."

The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of "him who strengthens" us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth "fruits that befit repentance." These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.


So nice to speak to a Christian that understands Catholicism and speaks of it in a respectful tone.

I posted what the Catechism of the Catholic Church states about penance.
I'm not Catholic and won't bore you with details, but I do want to state that when I've gone to confession I was never given penance to do. The priest uses what he knows about the confessee (?) to try to help them understand the particular sin that is being discussed at the moment. Maybe it IS necessary for some personal action to take place...maybe not.

However, that action is not a CONDITION to being forgiven.
The person is forgiven as soon as absolution is performed by the words of the priest.

Also, I wouldn't say it's a work....
Maybe more like an offering....

Wonder if donadams would care to add anything....

Rodger

You never replied to the above (posts 351, 352, 353)

but it's OK. You're not required to.
And you're having a nice convo with donadams .

Proceed.

 

[donadams]

Right and wrong.

Phil 1;29 CONTEXTUALLY saying that those who work and witness for Christ WILL SUFFER.

I think it is better said that there are times when we suffer, at the hands of the world, because we are following the will of God.

Christians chose tiki sacrificial and suffer for Christ’s sake (the conversion of sinners)

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Thks

 

[donadams]

The Bible clearly says that we can not avoid sin and temptation.

Sin comes from being tempted and Satan never ever stops temping us.

We can resist, and we can overcome temptation but because we all have an inherited sin nature, we tend to give in at one time or another.

You are free to your opinion and some will say that they are strong and can fight Satan and not give in to temptation to sin.

However, it should be noted that if we break one tittle of God's Law, we are guilty of breaking all of them as that is SIN.

IMHO....NO ONE is that strong and able to resist.

It may be the picture of a woman that brings lust to your mind = SIN.
It may be a tax deduction that you did not think was important = SIN.
It may be a little white lie that you dont think hurts anyone = SIN.
It may be that you did not give honor to your parents as they age= SIN.

That’s why we watch and pray
We need God’s grace and helps and gifts of the spirit sacraments etc

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

 

[donadams]

The Bible clearly says that we can not avoid sin and temptation.

Sin comes from being tempted and Satan never ever stops temping us.

We can resist, and we can overcome temptation but because we all have an inherited sin nature, we tend to give in at one time or another.

You are free to your opinion and some will say that they are strong and can fight Satan and not give in to temptation to sin.

However, it should be noted that if we break one tittle of God's Law, we are guilty of breaking all of them as that is SIN.

IMHO....NO ONE is that strong and able to resist.

It may be the picture of a woman that brings lust to your mind = SIN.
It may be a tax deduction that you did not think was important = SIN.
It may be a little white lie that you dont think hurts anyone = SIN.
It may be that you did not give honor to your parents as they age= SIN.

Really we can’t keep the commandments?

 

[Hopeful 2]

My dear friend.....With all love and respect, Please consider what you said.

You said.....
"In post #444, you said baptism was the first act of obedience after we are saved.
Now you say it isn't a requirement to be saved."

Again, and I will try to make what I said clear and simpler......
baptism is what we should do after we are saved because it is what Jesus commanded us to do. Therefore IMHO it is a command. For 50 years I always insisted that a lost man coming to Christ follow up in believers baptism, NOT to be saved but because they were saved.

I DID NOT say it was a requirement! I said it was something we do because we have accepted Christ as our Saviour.

I led several men to Christ on the battle field and many more sick and infirmed on their death bed to Christ and they were not baptised but I will see them in heaven because they accepted Christ by faith before they died.

You infer that you are already saved.
But a day of judgement in coming where all will be judged.
How can you be so sure that you won't sin again before that day ?
Overconfidence can be a deadly trap.

 

[donadams]

Because the Scriptures say so my friend.............
1 Timoth 3:15............
"ALL Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,"

Since Protestants believe the Scriptures are God's Word we believe that the Word of God is authoritative.

Jesus is the Christ. He is the cornerstone of the church but the church itself is made up of sinners.

Paul himself said that "I am the chief of all sinners".

My friend, YOU are a sinner.
I am a sinner.
Mary was a sinner.
The Pope is a sinner.

Romans 3:23 is true and factual whether you believe it or not in that.........
"ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God"

THAT is whay Jesus died for us. He now stands between the Father and the sinner.

1 Tim 3:15 church is the pillar of truth
You meant 2 Tim 3:16
All scripture
But it does not say scripture alone