Call No Man Father

[Rodger]

It’s a comparison not an accusation

Nope.

It was YOU saying/suggesting something I did not say or suggest.

 

[Rodger]

Christ is not just a doctrine to be believed by faith alone!

He is also a divine person who became man and died for us men and our salvation as a propitiatory sacrifice who’s merits must be applied to our spiritual souls to be cleansed from all sin. (Sacraments of grace)
Also He is the mediator of the covenant requiring union with Him & His grace! (New covenant church)

Christ is God in the flesh and His actions and work on the cross are to be believed by faith to be saved.

The rest of your post is correct except grace IS NOT a Sacrament.

 

[Rodger]

It also says Son carpenters don why don’t you answer?

Is Jesus the son of Joseph?
Scripture says so in at least three verses
Matt 13:55
Lk 2:48
Jn 1:45

NO. Jesus is not the carpenters son

He is the Son of God.

So by your question, you as a good Catholic are IMPLYING that Jesus is the son of Joseph and not the Son of God.
Do you think that your priest is going to approve of your position?

 

[Rodger]

"It also says Son carpenters don why don’t you answer" .

That makes NO sense. Want to clify it.

Your question actually show your lack of Bible knowledge OR you are intentionally trying to make the Bible say something it does not say. WHich is it?

The Scriptures you are twisting show that the people asking those question 2000 years ago they're dismissive, even sarcastic. The tone of their response is along the lines of saying, "who does Jesus think He is? We know this guy. Where did He come up with all of this?" Their response to Jesus is to ignore what's happening by saying, "oh, I already know what I think about Him."

As in Mark's gospel, the townspeople point out that they saw Jesus growing up. Most likely, both Jesus and Joseph worked as craftsmen in that region (Mark 6:3). Historians suggest there might have been high demand for masons and carpenters in Nazareth when Jesus was growing up to rebuild a nearby city that had burned. Joseph's adopted son Jesus likely worked in the same profession before beginning His public ministry and moving away. It's possible that Joseph has died by this time, but the people still remember him.

In the same way, the people declare that they know Jesus' family. They know Him as the son Mary and brother to her other sons, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas. Jesus is normally described as a half-brother to those four, since He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18) and the others were born in normal fashion to Joseph and Mary.

In short, the townspeople declare that since they already know who Jesus is—a carpenter's son and normal resident—there is no reason to think He could be anything else. Certainly, it's not possible He could be powerful or important. Whether it is this same visit or not, Luke describes a moment when the people of Nazareth attempt to kill Jesus, in part, for claiming to be the Messiah (Luke 4:16–29).

No matter how powerful His preaching or miracles might be, Jesus will never be accepted by those who insist they know better. Even today, believers and non-believers alike often cling to inaccurate ideas about Christ. In their minds, they "already know" Jesus, and have nothing to learn.

Does that familiar?

 

[donadams]

Now, I have posted the Scriptures from the Bible 3 times for you about the 1.2 brothers and sisters of Jesus. WHY do you ask me to do that again?????

The Father of Jesus if God. The mother of Jesus is the virgin Mary. Joseph is Mary's earthly husband.
Now.....do you need for me to post those Scriptures for you as well?

Matthew 12:46 (ESV)
"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him."

Luke 8:19.....(ESV)
"Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd."

Mark 3:31....(ESV)
"Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him because of the crowd."

Matt. 13:55...(ESV)
"Is not this the carpenter 's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

Matt. 13:56 (ESV)
" And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

John 7:1-4 (ESV)
"After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. 2 Now the Jews ' Feast of Booths was at hand. 3 So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing."

Acts 1:14
"All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers."

Galatians 1:19......
"But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord 's brother."

Now, YOU as a Roman Catholic will claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins.
However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used and it literally means PHYSICAL BROTHER!. The Greek word for "cousin" is a totally different word!.

Now you will not accept these Scriptures and we both know that. Further, just to make your explination even more impossible.........if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother?

There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers.

Now, again, we already know that since your argument has been proven wrong by the Word of God, you will now go to the Catholic explination and use the excuse that Jesus’ brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage.

Please, when you try to do that, make sure you understand that the entire theory of Joseph’s being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented without any biblical basis or historical documentation..

The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary’s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: “But he [Joseph] had no union with her [Mary] until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God’s Word.

So is Lk 1:34 and Matt 16:18-19 all Christians are bound by the councils that declare the dogmas of Mary!

My point was that scripture does not use your 1/2 figure

And Joseph is the father of Jesus Christ and the virgin birth is also true cos Joseph is the legal father of Jesus.

Thks

 

[donadams]

We agreed on John 14:6 because that is what we read in the Scriptures.

Ok next Christ is our teacher yes?

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things by, by whom also he made the worlds;

Light of the world: Jn 8:12
Light means truth
Must Hear Christ: Matt 17:5 acts 3:22

Still good?

 

[donadams]

According to what you have been taught, only Catholics go to heaven.

According to what God says....All who accept the Lord Jesus as the Christ go to heaven.

The church is of great importance, yet the Bible is clear that the way to heaven is by faith in Christ alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 notes there are no works involved in earning our way to heaven: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Going to church is a good thing, but it is not meritorious—it does not merit eternal life.

A person's church involvement does not determine entrance into heaven. Going to church doesn't make a person saved. However, the Bible does emphasize the importance of Christian fellowship in a local church. The word translated "church" is the Greek word ekklesia, a reference to an assembly meaning "called out." The church is not a building, but rather the "called out" ones of God, the gathering of people with faith in Jesus Christ.

If belonging to the Catholic church is a requirement of salvation and makes a lost man saved.......
then if I go and stand in my garage, then I am a car.

That in essence is what your theology is telling you!

Your concept of the church is a Bible study with coffee and dognuts!

In reality it is a covenant!

So objectively there are restrictions and requirements.

Including grace and the supernatural virtue of faith.

Thks

 

[donadams]

According to what you have been taught, only Catholics go to heaven.

According to what God says....All who accept the Lord Jesus as the Christ go to heaven.

The church is of great importance, yet the Bible is clear that the way to heaven is by faith in Christ alone. Ephesians 2:8-9 notes there are no works involved in earning our way to heaven: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Going to church is a good thing, but it is not meritorious—it does not merit eternal life.

A person's church involvement does not determine entrance into heaven. Going to church doesn't make a person saved. However, the Bible does emphasize the importance of Christian fellowship in a local church. The word translated "church" is the Greek word ekklesia, a reference to an assembly meaning "called out." The church is not a building, but rather the "called out" ones of God, the gathering of people with faith in Jesus Christ.

If belonging to the Catholic church is a requirement of salvation and makes a lost man saved.......
then if I go and stand in my garage, then I am a car.

That in essence is what your theology is telling you!

What does eph 2:8 have to with our accepting Christ or giving our heart to Christ or whatever catchy phrase the campus crusade for Christ has come up with these days?

 

[Rodger]

What does eph 2:8 have to with our accepting Christ or giving our heart to Christ or whatever catchy phrase the campus crusade for Christ has come up with these days?

Everything.

"We are save by grace through faith and not of yourselves".

As a good Catholic why would I have to explain it to you as it is at the heart of the Christian religion. ????

The statement has three parts— salvation, grace, and faith—and they are equally important. The three together constitute a basic tenet of Christianity.

However, YOU asked so that means you actually do not know. The word salvation is defined as “the act of being delivered, redeemed, or rescued.”

As a reader of the Bible and a teacher as well, I have read and understood that the Bible tells us that, since the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, each person is born in sin inherited from Adam.

Romans 5:12 says..............
“Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned”.

Sin is what causes all of us to die. Sin separates us from God, and sin destines each person to eternal separation from Him in hell. What each of us needs is to be delivered from that fate. In other words, we need salvation from sin and its penalty. So then everu human being needs to be saved from the judgment of God on sin.

So then, How are we saved from sin you ask?

Most religions throughout history, and especially the Catholic church have taught that salvation is achieved by good works. Others teach that acts of contrition (saying we are sorry) along with living a moral life is the way to atone for our sin.

Some add water baptism to salvation and again, that is the Catholic church. Sorrow over sin is certainly valuable and necessary, but that alone will not save us from sin. We may repent of our sins, also valuable and necessary, and determine to never sin again, but salvation is not the result of good intentions. The road to hell, as the saying goes, is paved with good intentions. We may fill our lives with good works, but even one sin makes us a sinner in practice, and we are already sinners by nature. No matter how well-intentioned or “good” we may be, the fact is that we simply do not have the power or the goodness to overcome the sin nature we have inherited from Adam. We need something more powerful, and this is where grace comes in.

The grace of God is His undeserved favor bestowed on those He has called to salvation through His love (Ephesians 2:4–5). It is His grace that saves us from sin.

We are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24).

Being justified, we are vindicated and determined to be sinless in the eyes of God. Our sin no longer separates us from Him and no longer sentences us to hell. Grace is not earned by any effort on our part; otherwise, it could not be called grace. Grace is free. If our good works earned salvation, then God would be obligated to pay us our due. But no one can earn heaven, and God’s blessings are not His obligation; they flow from His goodness and love. No matter how diligently we pursue works to earn God’s favor, we will fail. Our sin trips us up every time. “By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight” (Romans 3:20, NKJV).

The means God has chosen to bestow His grace upon us is through faith. as stated in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Also Heb. 11:1.......
“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see”.

Salvation is obtained by faith in God’s Son, Jesus Christ, in what He has done—specifically, His death on the cross and His resurrection. But even faith is not something we generate on our own. Faith, as well as grace, is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). He bestows saving faith and saving grace upon us in order to redeem us from sin and deliver us from its consequences. So God saves us by His grace through the faith He gives us. Both grace and faith are gifts. “Salvation belongs to the LORD” (Psalm 3:8, ESV).

By grace, we receive the faith that enables us to believe that He has sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross and provide the salvation we cannot achieve on our own. Jesus, as God in flesh, is the “author and perfecter of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2).

Just like the author of a book creates it from scratch, Jesus Christ wrote the story of our redemption from beginning to end. “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves” (Ephesians 1:4–6). The Lord died for our sins and rose for our justification, and He forgives, freely and fully, those who accept His gift of grace in Christ—and that acceptance comes through faith. This is the meaning of salvation by grace through faith that YOU asked about in Ephesians 2:8!.

Thanks for asking!

 

[Rodger]

Your concept of the church is a Bible study with coffee and dognuts!

In reality it is a covenant!

So objectively there are restrictions and requirements.

Including grace and the supernatural virtue of faith.

Thks

My concept of the Church is exactly what the Bible says that it is.....

So is Lk 1:34 and Matt 16:18-19 all Christians are bound by the councils that declare the dogmas of Mary!

My point was that scripture does not use your 1/2 figure

And Joseph is the father of Jesus Christ and the virgin birth is also true cos Joseph is the legal father of Jesus.

Thks

Of course not and I did not say that it did.

"I" stated that as a biological fact. Mary is the mother of Jesus. God is His Father.

Mary and Joseph had at least 6 children which would be HALF SIBLINGS of Jesus.

 

[Rodger]

Ok next Christ is our teacher yes?

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things by, by whom also he made the worlds;

Light of the world: Jn 8:12
Light means truth
Must Hear Christ: Matt 17:5 acts 3:22

Still good?

YES.

Some say that he was a teacher.

I say that He was God.

 

[Rodger]

So is Lk 1:34 and Matt 16:18-19 all Christians are bound by the councils that declare the dogmas of Mary!

My point was that scripture does not use your 1/2 figure

And Joseph is the father of Jesus Christ and the virgin birth is also true cos Joseph is the legal father of Jesus.

Thks

I should not have to tell you this but Joseph is not Jesus' genetic birth father.

Joseph's legal role as Jesus' father is the basis for Matthew's claim that Jesus is legally descended from Abraham and David. Joseph is said to be the husband of Mary, a legal relationship giving him parental status of Jesus, and giving Jesus legal rights as Joseph's heir. Jesus is said to have been born of Mary and called "Christ," which means "anointed." Matthew's first-century Jewish readers would likely have understood the name to be a title which meant "Messiah."

 

[Rodger]

These apostles teach baptism

Augustine ok


A) "It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas

B) "Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose

C) "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent

D)
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE

E) “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR

TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.

St. AUGUSTINE
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).


Dogma

174. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
175. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water.
176. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
177. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal.
178. Even if it be unworthily received, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an
indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot
be repeated.
179. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary
for all men without exception, for salvation.
180. Baptism can be validly administered by anyone.
181. Baptism can be received by any person in the wayfaring state who is not already baptised.
182. The Baptism of young children is valid and licit.

It all depends of what is defined as "They teach baptism".

If you are saying the Apostles taught that water baptism was NEEDED TO BE SAVED, then you are wrong.

If you are saying the Apostles taught they believers should follow their acceptance of Jesus as the Christ in believers baptism, then you would be correct.

 

[Rodger]

Being obedient Mary became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race.”!
St. Irenaeus

Yes?

NOPE!

Again you are incorrect and there is NOT ONE single Scripture to support that.

Mary needed to be saved because she was a sinner. She was in fact saved because she accepted Jesus as the Christ both by observation and faith.

 

[donadams]

It depends entirely on what you think revealed truth is dosent it!

Does the Bible explain how to do brain surgery.....NO. Is brain surgery done....YES!
Does the Bible explain how to build a Car.................NO..Do you drive a car..........YES!
Does the Bible explain how to play baseball.............NO..Have you seen basball played...YES.

As far as how a man is saved, the Bible and only the Bible gives that explination and it is only by faith in Jesus as the Christ for the payment of YOUR sins.

It is clearly worded and unequivocal in Ephesians 2:8-9 ....
“It is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”

It is a waste of my time to post these Scriptures as you have already said that you do not accept the Word of God but Other passages that clearly teach salvation through faith alone include Acts 16:31; Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9.

We are justified by God by grace alone; on the basis of Christ’s blood and righteousness alone; through the means, or instrument, of faith alone; for the ultimate glory of God alone; as taught with final and decisive authority in Scripture alone.”

All five phrases of SOLA serve to modify God’s work of justification — how sinners gain a right standing with God so that he is one hundred percent for us and not against us.

Jn 3:16 ((believe in Christ))
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 1 cor 16:13 gal 3:27 ((union with Christ by faith & baptism))
Jn 15:4 ((we must abide in Christ))
1 cor 13:2 (( charity & not by faith alone))
Phil 1:29 ((suffering not by faith alone))
Matt 25 Jn 15:5 phil 4:13 ((grace vivifies our works to be meritorious and salutary))
Matt 24:13 ((endure to the end to be saved))
Jn 5:29 ((good unto life & evil unto death))
Romans 8:17 2 Tim 2:12 ((glorified with Christ if we suffer with Him))
Rom 2:6 Rev 2: 19 ((reward for good works done in Christ & grace))

 

[donadams]

Now YOU are getting really desperate. I hate to say that as we have been having a really good discussion, but YOU have now CHANGED the Word of God to make it say what you want it to say to match Catholic dogma.

1 Timothy 2:15 that you just posted says.........
" Yet she will be saved through childbearing — if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."

Now, either by hook or crook, what YOU posted was............
"Notwithstanding she shall be saved inchildbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Somehow, through got changed to IN.

We all wonder HOW that happened?????

Romans 10:9 stands as posted. It witth the mouth that confession is made from the conviction made IN the heart.

I would think that the ethics of this site would motivate you to correct or explain how this happened.

I know that if it was "ME" how this happened to, you would be demanding an explination.....Correct?

Just asking about scripture don’t have spell

I would also ask about Jn 5:29 and Matt 25

 

[donadams]

TOOOOO long of a post to respond except the 1st two thing you said which was............

"Member of the church is not required for salvation!"
That is 100% correct and it is Biblical....congratulations. However, that is not Catholic doctrine.

#2.
You are actually saying: “the boat of Noah was not required to save Noah and his family from the flood”!

Now, again, that is totally disingenuous. I did not say that and It is a concern why you would place words into my mouth.

Anyone, who has read the Bible at all would know that what you state dis not true and it begs the question....
why would you suggest such a thing.

In fact, the Ark is a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. All those IN the Ark were saved. All who are in Christ are saved but nowhere is there anything said that "ALL those who are in the church are saved".

No the ark is a type of baptism according to scripture 1 pet 3:20-21

Baptism makes us a member of Christ and his church which is absolutely necessary for salvation

 

[donadams]

NO.

Why no?

Did I say Mary was the first or primary cause?

 

[donadams]

NO.

Do you not have to believe and obey acts 1:8? And acts 2:42?

 

[donadams]

I meat and mean that they are ALIVE at the time of the Resurrection.

Paul had a face to face meeting with the risen Lord and Paul was alive at the time of the Resurrection.

The Holy Spirit teaches and guides and we are saved through the Word of God.

Sacraments do not save anyone.

Did d Paul see Christ or was he blind and cried out who art thou Lord?

Is baptism a true sacrament!
Mk 16:16 he who believes and receives the sacrament shall be saved
1 pet 3:21 baptism (sacrament) now saves you!

No?