Bible Study CALLING ALL BIBLE STUDY ENTHUSIASTS! Come and join us for an indepth study of the Book of Deut.

[TOG]

You said, "Most Jews today believe that this only refers to converts to Judaism, and this was probably the case in Jesus' time as well."

I think there are Christians who think the same way as these Jews, that it is only Christians who a worthy of their kindness. ​

I'm afraid you're right. Many people seem to think that only they or their nation/race/group deserves God's grace. The fact is that he loved us while we were "foreigners", before we had done anything to deserve it (not that we've done anything since then either).

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

Young's Literal Translation
Deu 11:14 that I have given the rain of your land in its season--sprinkling and gathered--and thou hast gathered thy corn, and thy new wine, and thine oil,
Joe 2:23 And ye sons of Zion, joy and rejoice, In Jehovah your God, For He hath given to you the Teacher for righteousness, And causeth to come down to you a shower, Sprinkling and gathered--in the beginning.
Jas 5:7 Be patient, then, brethren, till the presence of the Lord; lo, the husbandman doth expect the precious fruit of the earth, being patient for it, till he may receive rain--early and latter;

KJV
Psa 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
Psa 104:15 And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
Psa 104:16 The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;

 

[Deborah13]

gah, discussing the Torah and someone is using Yahweh. gah. its just a me thing.

of course the Hebrews were to love the goy. its in this book chapter 4 is the first allusion to that.

What do you suggest I do?

 

[reba]

I guess it must count. I looked it up on acronymfinder.com, and that's the first thing I found that made sense here. Let me take another look...

Pepole killer? I hope not!... Pain Killer? Are you in that band? Hm.... Peacekeeper? That sounds good... Wait... That's a missile, so that's probably not it... Oh... Here's one, right down at the bottom of the list... Pastor's Kid?

The TOG​

Sorry TOG the term is so normal to me i thought you were being silly.... Yup preachers kid...

 

[jasonc]

What do you suggest I do?

nothing its just a personal deal. Yahweh=Jehovah. neither are bad but aren't really the Name(Heshem). Imean we don't know the vowels.

 

[TOG]

Sorry TOG the term is so normal to me i thought you were being silly.... Yup preachers kid...

I was being silly. I did have to look it up, but I saw "Preacher's Kid" right away. I just also saw some other possible meanings and decided to have some fun with it. I hope you didn't mind.

The TOG​

 

[jasonc]

lol more like the "peace keeper" with that rolling pin


HEY

 

[TOG]

lol more like the "peace keeper" with that rolling pin

Good point.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

nothing its just a personal deal. Yahweh=Jehovah. neither are bad but aren't really the Name(Heshem). Imean we don't know the vowels.

Yes, I've read that the Massoretes Jewish scholars around 900 BC came up the system of dots and dashes to represent the vowel sounds. They used the vowels from Adonai and Elohim and added them to YHWH. They were afraid that the Hebrew language would be lost with no one knowing how to pronounce the words correctly. I think it is Jewish tradition that not speaking His name is to give respect, thus HaShem? Yud Hey Vav Hey oy vey!

 

[jasonc]

Yes, I've read that the Massoretes Jewish scholars around 900 BC came up the system of dots and dashes to represent the vowel sounds. They used the vowels from Adonai and Elohim and added them to YHWH. They were afraid that the Hebrew language would be lost with no one knowing how to pronounce the words correctly. I think it is Jewish tradition that not speaking His name is to give respect, thus HaShem? Yud Hey Vav Hey oy vey!

that is a first as the chassidics never mention the vowel and they do say YHWH on yom kippur. but the original vowels aren't from the Hebrew for Lord and god.

 

[ezrider]

Chopper, as you move along in your study of the book of Deuteronomy, I would like to call to your remembrance the scripture that says: until this day the veil remains in place when reading the old testament, but when it shall turn to Christ, the veil shall be taken away. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16

Deuteronomy 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the Lord your God giveth you.

We come into our rest and our inheritance when we shall turn to Christ. (Hebrews 4:9-10, Ephesians 1:11)

Deuteronomy 12:11 Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the Lord.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God was the place that the Lord chose to cause his name to dwell there.

Deuteronomy 12:14-16 But in the place which the Lord shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee. Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the Lord thy God which he hath given thee:the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart. Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.

So now we come to a place in the law, that says when you have have come to the place the Lord has chosen from one of the tribes, when you have come to Jesus Christ, that you may eat according to the blessings of the Lord, the clean and the unclean alike. This passage reminds me so much of Peters vision.

Acts 10:11-16 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. This was done thrice:and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Now thinking back to 2 Corinthians 3:12, because of the veil they are not able to see to the end of that which is abolished. It reminds me of the story when the Lord appeared over the mount in a cloud of fire. The children of Israel where commanded to make themselves ready for three day, and they should not touch the mountain or they would surely die; but on the third day when the trumpet blows long, then you shall come up to the mountain, and I will write my laws into your hearts. But on the third day when the trumpet blew long, and the Lord appeared in a cloud of fire over the mountain, the children of Israel would not go up for fear of the commandment that the mountain was not to be touched. When it turns to Christ, the veil shall be taken away.

 

[TOG]

Chopper, as you move along in your study of the book of Deuteronomy, I would like to call to your remembrance the scripture that says: until this day the veil remains in place when reading the old testament, but when it shall turn to Christ, the veil shall be taken away. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16

Deuteronomy 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the Lord your God giveth you.

We come into our rest and our inheritance when we shall turn to Christ. (Hebrews 4:9-10, Ephesians 1:11)

Deuteronomy 12:11 Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the Lord.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God was the place that the Lord chose to cause his name to dwell there.

Deuteronomy 12:14-16 But in the place which the Lord shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee. Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the Lord thy God which he hath given thee:the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart. Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.

So now we come to a place in the law, that says when you have have come to the place the Lord has chosen from one of the tribes, when you have come to Jesus Christ, that you may eat according to the blessings of the Lord, the clean and the unclean alike. This passage reminds me so much of Peters vision.

Acts 10:11-16 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. This was done thrice:and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Now thinking back to 2 Corinthians 3:12, because of the veil they are not able to see to the end of that which is abolished. It reminds me of the story when the Lord appeared over the mount in a cloud of fire. The children of Israel where commanded to make themselves ready for three day, and they should not touch the mountain or they would surely die; but on the third day when the trumpet blows long, then you shall come up to the mountain, and I will write my laws into your hearts. But on the third day when the trumpet blew long, and the Lord appeared in a cloud of fire over the mountain, the children of Israel would not go up for fear of the commandment that the mountain was not to be touched. When it turns to Christ, the veil shall be taken away.

I'm at work now, so I don't have time to answer this properly. I'll do that when I get home. There is one question I'd like to ask, though. How does "the unclean and the clean may eat thereof" equate to "you may eat... the clean and the unclean alike". Deuteronomy is talking about who could eat, not what people could eat. This is not a debate forum, so I won't go into Peter's vision. There have been plenty of other threads about that. I hope it will be okay to talk about the veil though.

The TOG​

 

[Chopper]

I'm at work now, so I don't have time to answer this properly. I'll do that when I get home. There is one question I'd like to ask, though. How does "the unclean and the clean may eat thereof" equate to "you may eat... the clean and the unclean alike". Deuteronomy is talking about who could eat, not what people could eat. This is not a debate forum, so I won't go into Peter's vision. There have been plenty of other threads about that. I hope it will be okay to talk about the veil though.

The TOG​

Thanks TOG, I was trying to figure out what was happening here, whether it was people or food.

 

[Chopper]

Chapter 12 It was important that as Israel dispossess each nation, they were to utterly destroy their places of idol worship along with the idol figure and any object used in that worship. Israel was not to even ask or question those heathen practices, they were to disappear like the cities and people.

Israel, on the other hand was to worship the living God in one place, as compared to the may places of the heathen. They were to bring their objects of sacrifice to that one location. I understand that the first location would be Shiloh.

Now we come to the blood of the animal sacrifices. I see the importance that our mighty God places on blood. The origin of blood has its beginning with God. It is not man made in which he is the architect and can do what he pleases with it, but God is the architect and must return to Him of His choosing. Sprinkled on the altar of sacrifice, or spilled on the ground. The cross of Jesus Christ became the final altar of sacrifice of which the precious Lamb of God would be sacrificed and His precious blood would not only be sprinkled on that cruel old wooden cross altar, but poured out on the ground beneath it. That would be the final sacrifice that our Great God and His Son, the Lamb of God, would require for the sins of all mankind. The question now is, who will receive this Savior and His own sacrifice for the forgiveness of original sin and those which man has committed.

 

[reba]

1Th_5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

 

[TOG]

I said I was going to post something about the veil that ezrider brought up, but when I started writing it, it quickly got too long and off topic for this thread. I started a new thread about it, if anyone is interested.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

Deuteronomy 12 both starts and ends with the same commandment.

You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. You shall tear down their altars and dash in pieces their pillars and burn their Asherim with fire. You shall chop down the carved images of their gods and destroy their name out of that place. You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way. (Deu. 12:2-4 ESV)

When the Lord your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deu. 12:29-31 ESV)
​

When something is repeated in Scripture, it is often to emphasize a point. What is being emphasized here? We are told elsewhere that we are to worship the Lord and Him alone. Christians don't usually have a problem accepting that. But here we are told that it not only matters that we worship God, but it also matters how we worship Him. Most Christians (at least most that I know) have a much harder time accepting that our method of worship or worship style matters. We are told not to copy the practices of the Pagans and say we are doing them for YHWH. Yet, most of what we do in church (but not most of what we believe) is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Not all of it is Pagan in origin, but much of it is. Worshiping on Sunday rather than the Sabbath, "sanctified" Pagan festivals instead of the Feasts of the Lord and even the way our church buildings are designed (based on a combination of Roman government buildings and Pagan temples) are all violations of the commandment in this chapter to not learn the ways of the Pagans and "not worship the Lord your God in their way".

Like I said earlier, this is not a debate forum and I don't want to start a debate about this issue. I present this as my understanding of these verses. Others may present their understanding and I won't debate it. But whatever views we may have, these verses give us a reason to think about the way we worship God.

The TOG​

 

[reba]

TOG

Like I said earlier, this is not a debate forum and I don't want to start a debate about this issue. I present this as my understanding of these verses. Others may present their understanding and I won't debate it.

 

[jasonc]

Chapter 12 It was important that as Israel dispossess each nation, they were to utterly destroy their places of idol worship along with the idol figure and any object used in that worship. Israel was not to even ask or question those heathen practices, they were to disappear like the cities and people.

Israel, on the other hand was to worship the living God in one place, as compared to the may places of the heathen. They were to bring their objects of sacrifice to that one location. I understand that the first location would be Shiloh.

Now we come to the blood of the animal sacrifices. I see the importance that our mighty God places on blood. The origin of blood has its beginning with God. It is not man made in which he is the architect and can do what he pleases with it, but God is the architect and must return to Him of His choosing. Sprinkled on the altar of sacrifice, or spilled on the ground. The cross of Jesus Christ became the final altar of sacrifice of which the precious Lamb of God would be sacrificed and His precious blood would not only be sprinkled on that cruel old wooden cross altar, but poured out on the ground beneath it. That would be the final sacrifice that our Great God and His Son, the Lamb of God, would require for the sins of all mankind. The question now is, who will receive this Savior and His own sacrifice for the forgiveness of original sin and those which man has committed.

wherever the Holy of Holies was, not just shiloh or Jerusalem until that city had its temple. a Hebrew could worship god anywhere but to get close to God he had to go to the tabernacle or the temple and then offer those sacrifices.which in Hebrew means literally to draw near.

 

[ezrider]

I'm at work now, so I don't have time to answer this properly. I'll do that when I get home. There is one question I'd like to ask, though. How does "the unclean and the clean may eat thereof" equate to "you may eat... the clean and the unclean alike". Deuteronomy is talking about who could eat, not what people could eat. This is not a debate forum, so I won't go into Peter's vision. There have been plenty of other threads about that. I hope it will be okay to talk about the veil though.

The TOG​

TOG, Chopper, I will agree with you that this is not a debate forum, and If we wish I suppose we could start a new thread about food laws, but I'm afraid it would do no good, and we would only hold to our own positions. But if we only hold to our own understanding, how will we ever learn to listen to the Spirit instruct us? All I can tell you is that I look at the scripture in its simplicity; And in it simplicity Deuteronomy 12:14-16 says that you may kill and eat what so ever your soul lusts after according to the blessing of the Lord, you may kill and eat the clean and the unclean alike, only do not eat the blood. I don't think the lord is telling me to beware of vampires. No.

Now I will share a thought with you that came to my mind as I started this response. All scripture in its simplicity. From the beginning to the end. In the beginning the Lord gave a commandment that said: Of all the trees in the garden, you may freely eat, but of the three of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat. Of all the trees in the garden you may eat; go, kill and eat what ever you soul lusts after according to the blessing of the Lord. But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat; You may eat of the clean and the unclean alike, only you shall not eat the blood. And in its simplicity, the similarities are simply amazing. When we look at Deuteronomy 12:11 and see that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, was the place the Lord chose to make his name dwell there. And by the death and resurrection of Jesus, we have come to a new heaven and a new earth, and we are a new creation made in his image. And just like back in the garden, the first commandment issued for the kingdom of the Son of God, is basically saying, of all the trees in the garden you may eat freely, what ever your soul lusts after. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, or you shall surely die. For life is in the blood, and the way of the tree of knowledge demands blood.