Calvinism and the Nicene Creed

[Walpole]

To Walpole.

Thankyou fir the link connecting homosexuality to the issue. I read the abstract and will try to read the rest of the report to see if I agree with the conclusions. None the less it is a consideration that has information I wouldn't have access to before, so I'll have to consider it.

On the matter of celibacy, I disagree with your conclusions entirely. Paul said that it would be better to remain unmarried if a person was able to, but not to try if they couldn't and would burn with lust.

This isn't a condition to becoming a deacon, an elder, or a priest. It is however the opposite to the conditions Paul gave for making a person an elder of a church. If I remember right one of the conditions Paul wrote to Timothy or to Titus about, was that an elder had to have a family in good order to judge if he could manage The church.

Jesus seems to say something along the same lines when talking about marriage to the desciples. After hearing what He taught about adultry, the disciples concluded that it was better to not marry at all. Jesus replied that only those God has made that way can follow that path but it's not mandated is is not a rule to follow.

Bibically speaking, the rule to forbid marriage to priests doesn't exist, and is actually unbiblical.

Paul was celibate, as was our Blessed Lord.

Marriage was never a condition to becoming a priest in the early Church. If Paul stated such (he didn't), then he violated his own condition as he was celibate.

“Now I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with sexual desire.“ (1 Cor 7:8-9)

Celibate = unmarried

 

[Walpole]

Being "the husband of one wife" would preclude certain church officials from being celibate.

Being the "husband of one wife" does not mean one must be married. Rather, the Apostle is stating that those clergy who are married MUST BE THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, i.e., they cannot be divorced and remarried, which is a state of adultery.


Trying to make this instruction mean marriage itself is a requirement for the clerical state is self-refuting, since St. Paul was celibate, as was Timothy. The Apostle would be contradicting his own teaching, as well as instructing Timothy to violate the teaching as well.

 

[GodsGrace]

ive been (re)considering the rcc, too. i dunno. perfect? no. the fullest, most genuine expression of The Good News available to...me? probably. to most people? that, I don't know.

i kinda think the 19th century Quakers were fairly awesome, but...yeah...about that...where are they now?

i dont know if the celibacy deal is what's led to a lot of the probs in the rcc. this is going to sound...self-loathing, i guess is the current pop psych term...coming from a recovering gay dude....

i think letting men who are homosexual and/or have deeply rooted, strong homosexual tendencies become priests--not just here and there, but apparently lots of them, all over-has been a bad thing for the rcc. not that gay=pedophile, but...

again, im glad I'm a Christian, I'm glad this is a Christian site....the gay community covers up a lot of illegal and barely legal stuff. somehow, i was spared a lot of it, probably because i lived in a bubble and all, but...

there's lots of exploitation, running along the lines of power (age, social class, overall clout), more so in ongoing relationships than in (the far more common) stuff. anyway...

there's also the issue of pride...oh, and self-love and rebellion...that seems to come with the 'queer sensibility.' i dunno what to make of it, honestly. im nearly 7 years into a genuine walk with The Lord, and I think...

I'm personally, just now getting down to the business of some much needed Christian character development and overall maturation. i dont hang out with any gay dudes, now, but...

-sigh- i dont think homosexual men should lead churches or be in positions of authority over congregants. its not just the sex scandals, either. its...ill advised, I think. and i think that was once rcc policy, right? or not?

Hi CE,
It wasn't catholic policy to hire gay priests, if that's what you mean.
Remember, that in the past it was don't ask- don't tell.
The "condition" was kept under wraps...and if it was discovered while seminary of after, well - it was too late and priests were in demand.

I think the cover ups were the worst thing of all....
It was like a conspiracy. I must say, however, that this happens in the Protestant church too....where there are men,,,there is sin.

As you your believing that homosexuals should not be put in a position of authority in a church setting... Well, I'm with you but in a different way: I'm a female, and I DO NOT believe females should be put in a position of authority; or at least 99% of them.
It just isn't cut out for women,,the reasons are plentiful.

So, yeah, we agree.

 

[Niblo]

To Niblo

I honestly had no idea about these letters and declarations, and am relieved greatly by them. It has been my impression that Islamic leaders and scholars did nothing against ISIS while their rampage reigned. This is one thing I am very glad to see I was wrong about.

You asked why I didn't know though. My answer would have to be that I had not heard these things in the news and didn't know where to turn to look them up. If I can ask, where did you find these letters and declarations given and agreed on by Islamic leaders andvIslamic scholars? Was it because it was in your news and you heard about it as it was being reported? Or did you have somewhere to look it up? If it was the second, I ask that you let me know how you found this information. That way I can search for it myself when in the future something happens and I neither see nor hear a response from Muslim leaders.

In the past I've seen news reports about violence and vandalism done against Muslims or against a mosque. When I see this I'm ashamed by the people who've done the acts, but I also usually see a statement from local churches and local governors or mayors offering support to the victims of these crimes and speak about a message of tolerance towards Islam. These are usually reported in the news. I have no response to know why Islamic responses against terrorism has not been reported by the news sources that I see. I didn't know there were a negitive responses to terrorism, couldn't answer why they weren't reported.

(Continued)

Hello again. Sorry for the delayed reply.

The complete letter (I’ve posted only a section) can be read on: www.lettertobaghdadi.com

As to the source of my knowledge……I have books. Books on Islam; books on Christianity. Lots of books! I also have around sixty years of study. Here are some Islamic scholars whose works are relevant to this topic:

Abul Aʿlā Mawdūdī, a conservative Islamic philosopher, jurist and imam; Shaykh Hussain Madani, former Deputy Head of Jam’iat Ahl-e-Hadith, Hyderabad and United AP; Muhhamad Asad; Qasim Rashid; Salah Al-Ansari, Senior Researcher in Theology and a lecturer in Islamic studies Muslim College London; Usama Hasan; and Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi, Syrian Islamic scholar and religious leader (a Sufi):

And my favourites:

Muhammad Abdel Haleem, OBE; King Fahd Professor of Islamic Studies at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, and one of the world’s leading authorities in Qur’anic studies. His works:

‘The Qur’an’

‘Understanding the Qur’an: Themes and Style’

‘Exploring the Qur’an – Context and Impact’

And Khaled Abou El Fadl; Professor of Law at the UCLA School of Law. His works:

‘The Search for Beauty in Islam – A Conference of the Books’

‘The Great Theft - Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’

I would especially recommend these books. If you can get only one (apart from Haleem’s ‘The Qur’an’) then make it ‘The Great Theft - Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’.

May the Exalted bless you, and bring you to Himself.

 

[Niblo]

There will always be a remnant... I believe ( in part) that the church is shrinking so that the true believers will gather.
For two long, and i can really only speak for America, but for two long has the church been at war with it's brother. Wolves scatter, and they have certainly scattered the flock with their division to where it has become a stench to onlookers. Outside looking in, Christianity has been it's own worst enemy fighting amongst ourselves and calling each other heretics. It's no wonder membership is in decline and the world wants nothing to do with us. In America, it's become political and politics drive the "Christian" believe, not Christ.

Hi Steve.

Why is it that terrorists (regardless of their ethnic origins, or religious affiliations) can kill so readily all those who disagree with them? Noam Chomsky and Andre Vltchek provide an answer:

‘George Orwell had a term for it: “unpeople.” The world is divided into people like us, and unpeople – everyone else who do not matter. Orwell was talking about a future totalitarian society, but it applies quite well to us. There is a fine young British diplomatic historian, Mark Curtis, who uses the term unpeople in his study of the post-World War II depredations of the British Empire. We are not concerned with what happens to them.’ (‘On Western Terrorism - New Edition: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare’).

Islam rejects utterly the notion that certain individuals or nations are ‘unpeople’. Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us:

‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13).

Not only are human beings created as equals, they are given different paths to follow:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

The message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.

What is also clear from the Qur’an is that Christianity is intended to be – and to remain – one of the assigned paths. It says this about Christians (and Jews):

‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. God is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8).

The Exalted promises paradise to those Christians who believe in Him, and who do good deeds. He does not renege on His promises. His promise is there for all to see. How can anyone deny it?

Khaled M. Abou El Fadl writes:

‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?

‘According to moderates, God’s light is not owned by anyone, and so Muslims and non-Muslims can step into the light together. They can share a partnership in which they come to know one another. In the process, they can cooperate to establish virtue and mercy on this earth - they can cooperate to prevent the corruption of the earth through the ugliness of ignorance, hate, war, and destruction. Moderates believe that supremacy belongs only to God. Therefore, when they come to invite the other to step into the light, they do so with utter humility - the humility of knowing that it is impossible to avoid corrupting the earth, and also impossible to achieve any degree of Godliness on this earth, unless they can come to know the other. It is this, the knowledge of the other, that is the requisite for the Divine gift of peace.

‘In the modern age, it would seem that terrorism is the quintessential crime of corrupting the earth. When violence is committed against the defenseless, by stealth and without warning, the net effect is to spread fear and horror among God’s people. Whether one calls the crime hiraba or terrorism, it is fundamentally the same thing. Those who are familiar with the classical tradition will find the parallels between what were described as crimes of hiraba and what is often called terrorism today nothing short of remarkable. The classical jurists considered crimes such as assassinations, setting fires, or poisoning water wells – that could indiscriminately kill the innocent – as offenses of hiraba. Furthermore, hijacking methods of transportation or crucifying people in order to spread fear and terror are also crimes of hiraba. Importantly, Islamic law strictly prohibited the taking of hostages, the mutilation of corpses, and torture.’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).

In another work he writes (my emphasis):

‘The highest stage of submission is to love God more than any other, even more than oneself, and for those who achieve this lofty position of loving God absolutely and completely, they become God’s beloved, endowed with true perception, wisdom, and compassion. For human beings to love God necessarily means that they must love all that God has created and represents. It would make little sense to love God but hate God’s creatures and creation. To truly love God, one must love all human beings, whether Muslim or not, and love all living beings as well as all of God’s nature. To truly love God means that one must also detest the destruction of what God has created. For those who reach the lofty stature of being God’s beloved, their hearts will be full with love for justice, and full of compassion and love for all. As the classical scholars used to put it, if you find a man full of anger, resentment, hate, and cruelty toward human beings, animals, or nature, then know that the love of God has not entered his heart. In short, it is impossible to love God or be beloved by God and not to exhibit the characteristics of Godliness.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).

God bless you.

 

[Truthfrees]

Hi Steve.

Why is it that terrorists (regardless of their ethnic origins, or religious affiliations) can kill so readily all those who disagree with them? Noam Chomsky and Andre Vltchek provide an answer:

‘George Orwell had a term for it: “unpeople.” The world is divided into people like us, and unpeople – everyone else who do not matter. Orwell was talking about a future totalitarian society, but it applies quite well to us. There is a fine young British diplomatic historian, Mark Curtis, who uses the term unpeople in his study of the post-World War II depredations of the British Empire. We are not concerned with what happens to them.’ (‘On Western Terrorism - New Edition: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare’).

Islam rejects utterly the notion that certain individuals or nations are ‘unpeople’. Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us:

‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13).

Not only are human beings created as equals, they are given different paths to follow:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

The message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.

What is also clear from the Qur’an is that Christianity is intended to be – and to remain – one of the assigned paths. It says this about Christians (and Jews):

‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. God is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8).

The Exalted promises paradise to those Christians who believe in Him, and who do good deeds. He does not renege on His promises. His promise is there for all to see. How can anyone deny it?

Khaled M. Abou El Fadl writes:

‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?

‘According to moderates, God’s light is not owned by anyone, and so Muslims and non-Muslims can step into the light together. They can share a partnership in which they come to know one another. In the process, they can cooperate to establish virtue and mercy on this earth - they can cooperate to prevent the corruption of the earth through the ugliness of ignorance, hate, war, and destruction. Moderates believe that supremacy belongs only to God. Therefore, when they come to invite the other to step into the light, they do so with utter humility - the humility of knowing that it is impossible to avoid corrupting the earth, and also impossible to achieve any degree of Godliness on this earth, unless they can come to know the other. It is this, the knowledge of the other, that is the requisite for the Divine gift of peace.

‘In the modern age, it would seem that terrorism is the quintessential crime of corrupting the earth. When violence is committed against the defenseless, by stealth and without warning, the net effect is to spread fear and horror among God’s people. Whether one calls the crime hiraba or terrorism, it is fundamentally the same thing. Those who are familiar with the classical tradition will find the parallels between what were described as crimes of hiraba and what is often called terrorism today nothing short of remarkable. The classical jurists considered crimes such as assassinations, setting fires, or poisoning water wells – that could indiscriminately kill the innocent – as offenses of hiraba. Furthermore, hijacking methods of transportation or crucifying people in order to spread fear and terror are also crimes of hiraba. Importantly, Islamic law strictly prohibited the taking of hostages, the mutilation of corpses, and torture.’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).

In another work he writes (my emphasis):

‘The highest stage of submission is to love God more than any other, even more than oneself, and for those who achieve this lofty position of loving God absolutely and completely, they become God’s beloved, endowed with true perception, wisdom, and compassion. For human beings to love God necessarily means that they must love all that God has created and represents. It would make little sense to love God but hate God’s creatures and creation. To truly love God, one must love all human beings, whether Muslim or not, and love all living beings as well as all of God’s nature. To truly love God means that one must also detest the destruction of what God has created. For those who reach the lofty stature of being God’s beloved, their hearts will be full with love for justice, and full of compassion and love for all. As the classical scholars used to put it, if you find a man full of anger, resentment, hate, and cruelty toward human beings, animals, or nature, then know that the love of God has not entered his heart. In short, it is impossible to love God or be beloved by God and not to exhibit the characteristics of Godliness.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).

God bless you.

it's interesting your post ends with wrestling islam from the extremists - that may be a valid point but funny how we hear of no islamic groups condemning terrorism and actively working to wrestle islam from terrorism

Proof?

proofs for lying /deceiving infidels
1. https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

2. https://www.meforum.org/3181/tawriya-creative-lying-islam

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya -

4. http://www.muslimfact.com/bm/terror...ts-lying-to-deceive-unbelievers-and-bri.shtml

5. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Lying_and_Deception

6. https://www.politicalislam.com/sacred-deception-taqiyya/

if you want more proof then i suggest you do a search as you claim 60 years of study on islam and other religions - also search for testimonies of ex-muslims - this might round out your study

 

[Truthfrees]

If is a bit of a tangent, but is anyone safe from people lying to advance their cause? My first thought when someone says they are Christian and own a business is if this is either a scam or just a way to get Christians to offer more trust or support. This is my fist thought because it's what I saw happen to my grandmother bring taken advantage of. Numerous times by Christians who weren't that Christian.

I think in Romans 3 Paul questioned whether or not a person can lose their place with God if they are unfaithful, and his answer is that we are all sinners, but God is true. Or at least in a sense, saying let all men be liars and God be true.

This applies to all of us. A seat of caution for ourselves, for our brothers and sisters in Jesus, as well as Muslims and anyone else. The fact that there is a verse in their scripture that makes it ok to decieve only makes it worse and adds more caution to them.

What do we do then, with eachother? What do we do with fellow Christians and nonchristians in all matters of life, whether it's business, personal, or otherwise? We don't shut down because everyone could be a liar. We still have great relationship with all kinds of people. What we do is probabley different depending on who you are. For me I think trust should be given out freely (in small doses) that way a person can prove whether they can be trusted more so, or we need to watch our back around this person or not.

I don't know if that makes sense or not, but for me based on the deeds I see and am aware of, I am a lot more cautious around a Muslim. I don't think they are all evil and out to spread a deseise of hate though. So even them that are taught to lie sometimes should be allowed to show if they can be trusted as much as anyone else is.

true - deceivers are everywhere in all religions - christianity and judaism command us to NOT lie - islam teaches that it is permitted to lie to infidels to advance islam

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Steve.

Why is it that terrorists (regardless of their ethnic origins, or religious affiliations) can kill so readily all those who disagree with them? Noam Chomsky and Andre Vltchek provide an answer:

‘George Orwell had a term for it: “unpeople.” The world is divided into people like us, and unpeople – everyone else who do not matter. Orwell was talking about a future totalitarian society, but it applies quite well to us. There is a fine young British diplomatic historian, Mark Curtis, who uses the term unpeople in his study of the post-World War II depredations of the British Empire. We are not concerned with what happens to them.’ (‘On Western Terrorism - New Edition: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare’).

Islam rejects utterly the notion that certain individuals or nations are ‘unpeople’. Allāh (subḥānahu ūta'āla) created human beings as equals, who are to be distinguished from each other only on the basis of their faith and piety. He tells us:

‘People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should know one another. In Allāh’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: Allāh is all knowing, all aware.’ (Al-Hujurat: 13).

Not only are human beings created as equals, they are given different paths to follow:

‘We have assigned a law and a path to each of you. If Allāh had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to Allāh and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.’ (Al-Ma’ida: 48).

The message is clear: Whatever path we happen to be on – whatever law we happen to follow – we are each of us called to do good.

What is also clear from the Qur’an is that Christianity is intended to be – and to remain – one of the assigned paths. It says this about Christians (and Jews):

‘Those who believe, and do good deeds, are the best of creation. Their reward with their Lord is everlasting Gardens graced with flowing streams, where they will stay forever. God is well pleased with them and they with Him. All this is for those who stand in awe of their Lord.’ (Al-Bayyina: 7-8).

The Exalted promises paradise to those Christians who believe in Him, and who do good deeds. He does not renege on His promises. His promise is there for all to see. How can anyone deny it?

Khaled M. Abou El Fadl writes:

‘What type of arrogance permits a people to name themselves God’s soldiers and then usurp His authority? What type of arrogance empowers a people to inject their insecurities and hatred into the Book of God, and then fancy themselves the divine protectors? Of all the sins of this world, what can be more revolting than usurping God’s Word, and then misrepresenting God’s meticulous Speech?

‘According to moderates, God’s light is not owned by anyone, and so Muslims and non-Muslims can step into the light together. They can share a partnership in which they come to know one another. In the process, they can cooperate to establish virtue and mercy on this earth - they can cooperate to prevent the corruption of the earth through the ugliness of ignorance, hate, war, and destruction. Moderates believe that supremacy belongs only to God. Therefore, when they come to invite the other to step into the light, they do so with utter humility - the humility of knowing that it is impossible to avoid corrupting the earth, and also impossible to achieve any degree of Godliness on this earth, unless they can come to know the other. It is this, the knowledge of the other, that is the requisite for the Divine gift of peace.

‘In the modern age, it would seem that terrorism is the quintessential crime of corrupting the earth. When violence is committed against the defenseless, by stealth and without warning, the net effect is to spread fear and horror among God’s people. Whether one calls the crime hiraba or terrorism, it is fundamentally the same thing. Those who are familiar with the classical tradition will find the parallels between what were described as crimes of hiraba and what is often called terrorism today nothing short of remarkable. The classical jurists considered crimes such as assassinations, setting fires, or poisoning water wells – that could indiscriminately kill the innocent – as offenses of hiraba. Furthermore, hijacking methods of transportation or crucifying people in order to spread fear and terror are also crimes of hiraba. Importantly, Islamic law strictly prohibited the taking of hostages, the mutilation of corpses, and torture.’ (‘The Search for Beauty in Islam: A Conference of the Books’).

In another work he writes (my emphasis):

‘The highest stage of submission is to love God more than any other, even more than oneself, and for those who achieve this lofty position of loving God absolutely and completely, they become God’s beloved, endowed with true perception, wisdom, and compassion. For human beings to love God necessarily means that they must love all that God has created and represents. It would make little sense to love God but hate God’s creatures and creation. To truly love God, one must love all human beings, whether Muslim or not, and love all living beings as well as all of God’s nature. To truly love God means that one must also detest the destruction of what God has created. For those who reach the lofty stature of being God’s beloved, their hearts will be full with love for justice, and full of compassion and love for all. As the classical scholars used to put it, if you find a man full of anger, resentment, hate, and cruelty toward human beings, animals, or nature, then know that the love of God has not entered his heart. In short, it is impossible to love God or be beloved by God and not to exhibit the characteristics of Godliness.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).

God bless you.

The crosswearers are unpeople.

Return to Christianity where you belong.

 

[GodsGrace]

it's interesting your post ends with wrestling islam from the extremists - that may be a valid point but funny how we hear of no islamic groups condemning terrorism and actively working to wrestle islam from terrorism

proofs for lying /deceiving infidels
1. https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

2. https://www.meforum.org/3181/tawriya-creative-lying-islam

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya -

4. http://www.muslimfact.com/bm/terror...ts-lying-to-deceive-unbelievers-and-bri.shtml

5. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Lying_and_Deception

6. https://www.politicalislam.com/sacred-deception-taqiyya/

if you want more proof then i suggest you do a search as you claim 60 years of study on islam and other religions - also search for testimonies of ex-muslims - this might round out your study

One letter here or there does not rejection make.
And why would any Islamic group REALLY reject terrorism?
Because THEY are just as much afraid of their own "brethren" as those of us are that understand what is happening.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Steve.

edit

‘The highest stage of submission is to love God more than any other, even more than oneself, and for those who achieve this lofty position of loving God absolutely and completely, they become God’s beloved, endowed with true perception, wisdom, and compassion. For human beings to love God necessarily means that they must love all that God has created and represents. It would make little sense to love God but hate God’s creatures and creation. To truly love God, one must love all human beings, whether Muslim or not, and love all living beings as well as all of God’s nature. To truly love God means that one must also detest the destruction of what God has created. For those who reach the lofty stature of being God’s beloved, their hearts will be full with love for justice, and full of compassion and love for all. As the classical scholars used to put it, if you find a man full of anger, resentment, hate, and cruelty toward human beings, animals, or nature, then know that the love of God has not entered his heart. In short, it is impossible to love God or be beloved by God and not to exhibit the characteristics of Godliness.’ (‘The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists’).

God bless you.

You read George Orwell?
What did you learn from him....
Did you learn that it's a GOOD THING for people to be monitored and controlled in their every movement and thought?

Or did you learn that freedom is to be treasured?

WHO is the man full of anger, resentment, hate and cruielty toward human beings?
You're right...God's love is not in these men....

Perhaps you could personally exhibit these acts of love you speak of to your muslim brethren...these characteristics of Godliness. Do you think it would do any good? Would it change them?



The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim
The Beltway Snipers were Muslims
The Fort Hood Shooter was a Muslim
The underwear Bomber was a Muslim
The U-S.S. Cole Bombers were Muslims
The Madrid Train Bombers were Muslims
The Bali Nightclub Bombers were Muslims
The London Subway Bombers were Muslims
The Moscow Theater Attackers were Muslims
The Boston Marathon Bombers were Muslims
The Pan-Am flight #93 Bombers were Muslims
The Air France Entebbe Hijackers were Muslims
The Iranian Embassy Takeover, was by Muslims
The Beirut U.S. Embassy bombers were Muslims
The Libyan U.S. Embassy Attack was by Muslims
The Buenos Aires Suicide Bombers were Muslims
The Israeli Olympic Team Attackers were Muslims
The Kenyan U.S, Embassy Bombers were Muslims
The Saudi, Khobar Towers Bombers were Muslims
The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims
The Beslan Russian School Attackers were Muslims
The first World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims
The Bombay & Mumbai India Attackers were Muslims
The Achille Lauro Cruise Ship Hijackers were Muslims
The September 11th 2001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims' the list since then has tripled..in many countries and continents here are some cities it affected Paris Istanbul, Brussels. ,Jerusalem and yes today in Tel Aviv Israel who have Indore Arab terror since the early 19 hundreds. any surprise ?
Think of it:
Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Christians = No Problem
Hindus living with Jews = No Problem
Christians living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem
Confucians living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'i's living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem
Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Christians = No Problem
Christians living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem
Confucians living with Hindus = No Problem
Muslims living with Hindus = Problem
Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem
Muslims living with Christians = Problem
Muslims living with Jews = Problem
Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem
Muslims living with Baha'i's = Problem
Muslims living with Shintos = Problem
Muslims living with Atheists = Problem
MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM
**********SO THIS LEAD TO *****************
They’re not happy in Gaza
They're not happy in Egypt
They're not happy in Libya
They're not happy in Morocco
They're not happy in Iran
They're not happy in Iraq
They're not happy in Yemen
They're not happy in Afghanistan
They're not happy in Pakistan
They're not happy in Syria
They're not happy in Lebanon
They're not happy in Nigeria
They're not happy in Kenya
They're not happy in Sudan
******** So, where are they happy? **********
They're happy in Australia
They're happy in England
They're happy in Belgium
They're happy in France
They're happy in Italy
They're happy in Germany
They're happy in Sweden
They're happy in the USA & Canada
They're happy in Norway & India
They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic! And who do they blame? Not Islam... Not their leadership... Not themselves... THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!! And they want to change the countries they're happy in, to be like the countries they came from where they were unhappy and finally they will be get hammered
!!!!
Islamic Jihad: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
ISIS: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Qaeda: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Taliban: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hamas: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hezbollah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Boko Haram: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Nusra: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abu Sayyaf: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Badr: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Muslim Brotherhood: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Lashkar-e-Taiba: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Palestine Liberation Front: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Ansaru: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Jemaah Islamiyah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abdullah Azzam Brigades: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

source: https://247sports.com/college/michigan-state/Board/97/Contents/

 

[Truthfrees]

You read George Orwell?
What did you learn from him....
Did you learn that it's a GOOD THING for people to be monitored and controlled in their every movement and thought?

Or did you learn that freedom is to be treasured?

WHO is the man full of anger, resentment, hate and cruielty toward human beings?
You're right...God's love is not in these men....

Perhaps you could personally exhibit these acts of love you speak of to your muslim brethren...these characteristics of Godliness. Do you think it would do any good? Would it change them?



The Shoe Bomber was a Muslim
The Beltway Snipers were Muslims
The Fort Hood Shooter was a Muslim
The underwear Bomber was a Muslim
The U-S.S. Cole Bombers were Muslims
The Madrid Train Bombers were Muslims
The Bali Nightclub Bombers were Muslims
The London Subway Bombers were Muslims
The Moscow Theater Attackers were Muslims
The Boston Marathon Bombers were Muslims
The Pan-Am flight #93 Bombers were Muslims
The Air France Entebbe Hijackers were Muslims
The Iranian Embassy Takeover, was by Muslims
The Beirut U.S. Embassy bombers were Muslims
The Libyan U.S. Embassy Attack was by Muslims
The Buenos Aires Suicide Bombers were Muslims
The Israeli Olympic Team Attackers were Muslims
The Kenyan U.S, Embassy Bombers were Muslims
The Saudi, Khobar Towers Bombers were Muslims
The Beirut Marine Barracks bombers were Muslims
The Beslan Russian School Attackers were Muslims
The first World Trade Center Bombers were Muslims
The Bombay & Mumbai India Attackers were Muslims
The Achille Lauro Cruise Ship Hijackers were Muslims
The September 11th 2001 Airline Hijackers were Muslims' the list since then has tripled..in many countries and continents here are some cities it affected Paris Istanbul, Brussels. ,Jerusalem and yes today in Tel Aviv Israel who have Indore Arab terror since the early 19 hundreds. any surprise ?
Think of it:
Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Christians = No Problem
Hindus living with Jews = No Problem
Christians living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem
Confucians living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'i's living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem
Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem
Hindus living with Baha'is = No Problem
Baha'is living with Christians = No Problem
Christians living with Jews = No Problem
Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem
Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem
Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem
Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem
Confucians living with Hindus = No Problem
Muslims living with Hindus = Problem
Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem
Muslims living with Christians = Problem
Muslims living with Jews = Problem
Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem
Muslims living with Baha'i's = Problem
Muslims living with Shintos = Problem
Muslims living with Atheists = Problem
MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM
**********SO THIS LEAD TO *****************
They’re not happy in Gaza
They're not happy in Egypt
They're not happy in Libya
They're not happy in Morocco
They're not happy in Iran
They're not happy in Iraq
They're not happy in Yemen
They're not happy in Afghanistan
They're not happy in Pakistan
They're not happy in Syria
They're not happy in Lebanon
They're not happy in Nigeria
They're not happy in Kenya
They're not happy in Sudan
******** So, where are they happy? **********
They're happy in Australia
They're happy in England
They're happy in Belgium
They're happy in France
They're happy in Italy
They're happy in Germany
They're happy in Sweden
They're happy in the USA & Canada
They're happy in Norway & India
They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic! And who do they blame? Not Islam... Not their leadership... Not themselves... THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!! And they want to change the countries they're happy in, to be like the countries they came from where they were unhappy and finally they will be get hammered
!!!!
Islamic Jihad: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
ISIS: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Qaeda: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Taliban: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hamas: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Hezbollah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Boko Haram: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Nusra: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abu Sayyaf: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Al-Badr: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Muslim Brotherhood: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Lashkar-e-Taiba: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Palestine Liberation Front: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Ansaru: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Jemaah Islamiyah: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION
Abdullah Azzam Brigades: AN ISLAMIC TERROR ORGANIZATION

source: https://247sports.com/college/michigan-state/Board/97/Contents/

excellent post - clear articulation of the real issues

 

[stovebolts]

true - 85% of all muslims who are murdered are murdered by muslims

Most Terrorist Victims Are Muslim

The Christchurch shooting continues a global pattern: Around the world, the majority of victims of terrorist attacks are Muslim.

psmag.com

Has it occurred to either you or wondering that the Muslims being killed are peaceful Muslims who do not hold to radical Islam?

I'm curious what the true answer is. Perhaps either of you can give a viable explanation for this.

Ironically, more people die in the US from internal terrorism ( not related to Islam) than from exterior terrorism, including Islam.

 

[GodsGrace]

Has it occurred to either you or wondering that the Muslims being killed are peaceful Muslims who do not hold to radical Islam?

I'm curious what the true answer is. Perhaps either of you can give a viable explanation for this.

Ironically, more people die in the US from internal terrorism ( not related to Islam) than from exterior terrorism, including Islam.

Most black persons are killed by black persons.
So why do they get so upset when a white person kills a black person?

Because it's the fact that one comes FROM THE OUTSIDE and INVADES a country AND causes problems that is very much resented.

I could have an argument with my husband...but my neighbor cannot come into my home and have an argument with my husband. It's the same. There was always some crime here but between Italians. NOW the crime has increased and it's mostly those from other countries...this is resented because strangers have changed the way of life here.

The problem is that they do not want to be a part of ITALY...they want to CHANGE Italy and bring it back hundreds, if not thousands of years.

We are seen as the enemy....
The women are seen as harlots...

A father here murdered his daughter because she was dating an Italian.

I don't like to go by the news...I go by what I see.
They demand the removal of crosses....even in cemetaries.
They cause problems in the city when the time for prayer comes...5X per day. They just stop wherever they are and put their prayer carpet down.

When in Rome, you do as the Romans do...they don't know about this.

They rule in Deerborn Michigan.
Is Deerborn still a part of the U.S?

There are black persons here..chinese, polynesian...
why are they not rejected?
there must surely be a reason.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To Niblo.

Thankyou, I hope you find God too. However I don't think I can find God through Islam. I doubt you can either. I'm sorry if that's harsh, but it's how I see it. The views here in this discussion are a small part of that reason, but there are others, based on the few things I've gathered about Muslim teaching (whether they are from the Quaran or from a culture and Islamic theology, I couldn't say, but there are red flags in it that I can's cross). Most of that is outside of the scope of this discussion. Either way thankyou for wishing me to find God. May you find Him and His love as well.

The books sound like scholarly work more then modern responses. I have read inspiring stories of Muslims protecting Christians against extreemists, and then I've heard reports of Muslims turning extreemist in their views, as if there's an ongoing plague in Islam bent towards evil. It's frightening to hear that terrorist groups seek to recruit through prisons and convert convicts to Islamic extremism. It's worse when you hear they can reach people who are already Muslim who volunteer to become domestic terrorists in their home countries radicalized through the Internet. Far away from the terrorists strongholds.

To say it in another way, an open letter to Bagdad is not enough. It's a nice and refreshing start, that gives some hope. But to quote another person earlier. Islam has a lot of in house cleaning to do.

Sorry for the bluntness. You seem like a well meaning person and are holding your tone well in a conversation very critical of Islam. Thank you for that.

One last thing to consider. Jesus forgave sinners and told them to sin no more. He did this several times throughout the gospels. The question, can Jesus be in the place to forgive sins like that? The biggest issue I have in Islam isn't in the violence done in it's name; but that to accept Muslim teachings you have to reject so much written in the gospels multiple times in order to conclude Jesus was who Islam say he was. Including that Jesus died on the cross, and that He was God's son, able to speak on God's behalf, even to forgive sins.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

true - deceivers are everywhere in all religions - christianity and judaism command us to NOT lie - islam teaches that it is permitted to lie to infidels to advance islam

Yeah, that is one reason once I heard about it, that make me say to keep a close eye of Islam like you would a panther or a snake. The other real reason is the violence that is started like a wildfire in Muslim states and Islamic communities. That combination is .... Very troubling.

None the less I worked with a guy who was a very nice Muslim, and I don't want to be strained by a poison to hate and detest Muslims. The only real way I know of doing this is to love them like you love anyone else. Both Christians and any other nonchristians. Added suspicion and anger is a poison against following through Jesus's teachings of loving your neighbor, loving your enemy, of the good Samaritan, and that our enemies aren't flesh and blood.

Standing against Islam I agree with, but standing against Muslims, there's a poison in there that I think would do me (and you, and anyone else) a lot of harm in following Jesus, or even remembering His teachings.

 

[stovebolts]

Most black persons are killed by black persons.
So why do they get so upset when a white person kills a black person?

Because it's the fact that one comes FROM THE OUTSIDE and INVADES a country AND causes problems that is very much resented.

I could have an argument with my husband...but my neighbor cannot come into my home and have an argument with my husband. It's the same. There was always some crime here but between Italians. NOW the crime has increased and it's mostly those from other countries...this is resented because strangers have changed the way of life here.

The problem is that they do not want to be a part of ITALY...they want to CHANGE Italy and bring it back hundreds, if not thousands of years.

We are seen as the enemy....
The women are seen as harlots...

A father here murdered his daughter because she was dating an Italian.

I don't like to go by the news...I go by what I see.
They demand the removal of crosses....even in cemetaries.
They cause problems in the city when the time for prayer comes...5X per day. They just stop wherever they are and put their prayer carpet down.

When in Rome, you do as the Romans do...they don't know about this.

They rule in Deerborn Michigan.
Is Deerborn still a part of the U.S?

There are black persons here..chinese, polynesian...
why are they not rejected?
there must surely be a reason.

Well, so far Dearborn hasn't caused anymore nor any less trouble than neighboring Detroit Suburbs.

I read Truthfrees article, and what I gathered was that the majority of terrorist attacks are against Muslims, but not necessarily by Muslims. The article starts with Churchill, and discussed the amount of terrorism against Muslims in Europe as you brought up.

Why America doesn't have the issues Europe has I don't really understand.

But, if I understand your post, you seem to think terrorism against Muslims in Europe is justified, and if your attitude reflects that of your European brethren, then perhaps that can give us some insight why European terrorism against Muslims is so high.

Regardless, I joined this thread not to discuss the atrocities radical Islam is clearly guilty of, but rather I posted because the Spirit really pushed me to live out my faith.

You may not agree, but I have given my view of the good Samaritan, and how it applies to everyone, regardless of their religious belief and regardless what those with differing religious beliefs have persecuted my religious belief. I stand unwavering that not all atheists or Muslims or any other beliefs that have persecuted my belief are bad people. Instead, Jesus teaches me to look beyond the stigma, and look at the person.

Part of love I hope, and I will not lose my hope because when one looses their hope, then we risk becoming blind and we can't see our neighbor when they are next to us. And if we lose sight of who our neighbor is, then don't we falsely accuse them and fail to live out one of the greatest commandments.

Please do not misunderstand me. I do not deny, not do I support the atrocities radical Islam is guilty of and the last thing I want anyone to think is that I am minimizing their atrocities or ignoring the issues within Islam, radical or not.

As Christians, our thoughts and actions are to be wrapped in scripture and scripture tells us how to treat our enemies. If we look back to the time of Nero, his rhetoric against Christians was so hateful that Christians got blamed for things they were not guilty of. History has a habit of repeating and we see similar rhetoric against the Jews as Hitler slaughters them.

You see, when we stop looking at people as individuals and we demonize them, they no longer are viewed as humans with any worth. As Christians, Jesus tells us to be wise as serpents, but gentle as doves. This means we don't stick our head in the sand to the atrocities around us, but unlike the world, we live out our faith and point the way to Christ.

I believe Romans 13 or 14 address this as well.

 

[atpollard]

Proof?

“Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers.
. . .
Allah said next, (unless you indeed fear a danger from them) meaning, except those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them. Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.”
The Prohibition of Supporting the Disbelievers
Tafsir Ibn Kathir

[Tafsir Ibn Kathir is one of the Most Comprehensive and Complete Explanation and Commentary of The Noble Quran. The 30th part of Tafsir Ibn Kathir is comprehensive in interpretation. ... Google Books]

 

[Walpole]

ive been (re)considering the rcc, too. i dunno. perfect? no. the fullest, most genuine expression of The Good News available to...me? probably. to most people? that, I don't know.

i kinda think the 19th century Quakers were fairly awesome, but...yeah...about that...where are they now?

i dont know if the celibacy deal is what's led to a lot of the probs in the rcc. this is going to sound...self-loathing, i guess is the current pop psych term...coming from a recovering gay dude....

i think letting men who are homosexual and/or have deeply rooted, strong homosexual tendencies become priests--not just here and there, but apparently lots of them, all over-has been a bad thing for the rcc. not that gay=pedophile, but...

again, im glad I'm a Christian, I'm glad this is a Christian site....the gay community covers up a lot of illegal and barely legal stuff. somehow, i was spared a lot of it, probably because i lived in a bubble and all, but...

there's lots of exploitation, running along the lines of power (age, social class, overall clout), more so in ongoing relationships than in (the far more common) stuff. anyway...

there's also the issue of pride...oh, and self-love and rebellion...that seems to come with the 'queer sensibility.' i dunno what to make of it, honestly. im nearly 7 years into a genuine walk with The Lord, and I think...

I'm personally, just now getting down to the business of some much needed Christian character development and overall maturation. i dont hang out with any gay dudes, now, but...

-sigh- i dont think homosexual men should lead churches or be in positions of authority over congregants. its not just the sex scandals, either. its...ill advised, I think. and i think that was once rcc policy, right? or not?

The Church and her priests succumbed to the general moral decline of the 1960's, 70's and 80's. It can be empirically shown that the early 1980's saw the largest influx of homosexuals to the priesthood (1 in 4 ordained). Those priests are now 60+ years old and many have become leaders and bishops in the Church. There is now a large number of bishops today who are homosexual and the problem in the Church - pederasty, not pedophilia - is not going away until these guys die, as they will continue to cover up for each other and homosexual priests.

The younger priests are not this way. However, it will take another 20-30 years before there is no longer a top-heavy homosexual episcopate in the Church, as it will take that long before the current priests make their way up the hierarchy.

You can read all about it in great detail here ---> Clergy Sex Abuse Report

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, so far Dearborn hasn't caused anymore nor any less trouble than neighboring Detroit Suburbs.

I read Truthfrees article, and what I gathered was that the majority of terrorist attacks are against Muslims, but not necessarily by Muslims. The article starts with Churchill, and discussed the amount of terrorism against Muslims in Europe as you brought up.

Why America doesn't have the issues Europe has I don't really understand.

But, if I understand your post, you seem to think terrorism against Muslims in Europe is justified, and if your attitude reflects that of your European brethren, then perhaps that can give us some insight why European terrorism against Muslims is so high.

Regardless, I joined this thread not to discuss the atrocities radical Islam is clearly guilty of, but rather I posted because the Spirit really pushed me to live out my faith.

You may not agree, but I have given my view of the good Samaritan, and how it applies to everyone, regardless of their religious belief and regardless what those with differing religious beliefs have persecuted my religious belief. I stand unwavering that not all atheists or Muslims or any other beliefs that have persecuted my belief are bad people. Instead, Jesus teaches me to look beyond the stigma, and look at the person.

Part of love I hope, and I will not lose my hope because when one looses their hope, then we risk becoming blind and we can't see our neighbor when they are next to us. And if we lose sight of who our neighbor is, then don't we falsely accuse them and fail to live out one of the greatest commandments.

Please do not misunderstand me. I do not deny, not do I support the atrocities radical Islam is guilty of and the last thing I want anyone to think is that I am minimizing their atrocities or ignoring the issues within Islam, radical or not.

As Christians, our thoughts and actions are to be wrapped in scripture and scripture tells us how to treat our enemies. If we look back to the time of Nero, his rhetoric against Christians was so hateful that Christians got blamed for things they were not guilty of. History has a habit of repeating and we see similar rhetoric against the Jews as Hitler slaughters them.

You see, when we stop looking at people as individuals and we demonize them, they no longer are viewed as humans with any worth. As Christians, Jesus tells us to be wise as serpents, but gentle as doves. This means we don't stick our head in the sand to the atrocities around us, but unlike the world, we live out our faith and point the way to Christ.

I believe Romans 13 or 14 address this as well.

Hey SB,,,I think we should stop talking about this.
For one, older posts become forgotten
and two...it's gone on long enough for me.

I'm afraid I'm being misunderstood....I said in a previous post that I look upon each person as a separate human being. I don't make of all the hay one bundle.

I don't hate muslims,,,I just don't agree with their religion or their Book...the Qur'an.
The bible should have ended with Revelation...this is what happens when scripture is added to...
Ditto for Joseph Smith and all the others that had their own vision and added to scripture -- it always ends up being wrong.

Is the Mafia Italian?
Yes.
Are all Italians Mafiosi?
No.

Does this take away that the Mafia is Italian?
No.

What is true is true and cannot be denied.
Jihad is Islamic.
Isis is Islamic.

Not every Muslim is in favor of violence....
This does not mean that Muslims are causing the terrorism in all parts of the world.

The Qur'an is not an inspired book.
It does not teach as God would.
It's worse than THE LAW in the O.T.
It tells Muslims how to behave in every situation of their life...
Every situation, even the private ones.

If Islam did not exist...would we have terrorism?
An act here and there,,,but not a concerted effort, to which most agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

Walpole

Hi W,
Just want you to know that I'm getting an alert of a response from you,,,
but then it doesn't come up.

Don't want you to think I'm not responding to it..
This never happened before...