Grubal Muruch
Member
For those who prescribe to "Calvinism," does it make any sense to try and evangelize, if "The Elect" were chosen before the foundation of the world, and the rest were chosen for eternal damnation?
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Calvinism---Why bother to evangelize
- Thread starter Grubal Muruch
- Start date
jasoncran
Member
dont confuse hyper calvinism with calvin did say.
ONLY god knows who will come and he will use his serveants to do his will. so therefore that is why they witness.
btw i am not a calvinist but closer to arminism.
Grubal Muruch
Member
According to the, TULIP system regarding Calvin's teachings, "The U stands for "Unconditional Election." This is the concept of predestination: that God has divided humanity into two groups. One group is "the elected." It includes all those whom God has chosen to make knowledgeable about himself. The rest will remain ignorant of God, and the Gospel. They are damned and will spend eternity in Hell without any hope of mercy or cessation of the extreme tortures. God made this selection before the universe was created, and thus before any humans existed. The ground or grounds that God uses to select the lucky few is unknown. What is known is that it is not through any good works on the part of the individual. It is not that he extends knowledge to some in order to find out who will accept salvation and who will not.
Christ_empowered
Member
From what I've read, lots of great preachers and evangelists have been Calvinists. The hyper-Calvinists might refrain from evangelizing the masses, but Calvinists will preach to anyone who will listen because you never know who is Elect and who just might become a great Christian. Calvinism isn't about letting God do all our work; its about recognizing God's sovereignty and mighty hand at work in Salvation.
handy
Member
I used to be a part of a Calvinist church. While I no longer agree with their doctrine, they can answer this question with Scripture:
Romans 10:12-17 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.†How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!â€
However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?†So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Calvinists believe that evangelism is God's method of gathering in the elect.
Romans 10:12-17 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.†How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!â€
However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?†So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Calvinists believe that evangelism is God's method of gathering in the elect.
craigmn3
Member
To accept the fact that God created some people to be damned, with no voice, no choice, no will involved......
"Sorry you will suffer eternally, because you didn't win the Lotto"
Betrays the very nature of God. That is not God!
John 3:16For God so loved the world, that WHOSOEVER would believe, shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Predestination hinges on God's foreknowlege of our choice of faith.....knowing that we will choose Him, God predestines our life to bring us to the moment of that choice.....but the choice, is all ours.
Romans 8: 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Time and time again the bible tells us that those who believe, those who call on his name, those who repent (choices) will be saved.
I try not to speak in too many absolutes, because I don't know nearly as much as I think I know
But Calvinism is a lie.
"Sorry you will suffer eternally, because you didn't win the Lotto"
Betrays the very nature of God. That is not God!
John 3:16For God so loved the world, that WHOSOEVER would believe, shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Predestination hinges on God's foreknowlege of our choice of faith.....knowing that we will choose Him, God predestines our life to bring us to the moment of that choice.....but the choice, is all ours.
Romans 8: 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Time and time again the bible tells us that those who believe, those who call on his name, those who repent (choices) will be saved.
I try not to speak in too many absolutes, because I don't know nearly as much as I think I know
But Calvinism is a lie.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ed the Ned
Member
The above comments don't make sense to me. I do not see myself as a calvanist. I believe in God as an absolute, I believe in Christ as an absolute. I believe in the Bible as an absolute. My whole existence as a Christian has to be based on absolutes. It is when we remove absolutes from our faith that we allow deception to take hold.
One thing I do agree with in the above comment is that we don't know as much as we think we know. We live under Gods grace (another absolute).
jasoncran
Member
i fully understand the basics of five point calvinism. i listen to a calvinist pastor.handy answered it best with God uses men to do his evangalism. calvinists themselves will disagree with you and call what you say hypercalvanism.
i have a hyper calvinist church in my town. they dont witness nor invite members to church. ever heard of the primitive baptists?
H
Hitch
Guest
Because one does not go fishing in a bathtub, one will attempt to cast his line where fish are present.
I believe in a absolute and all things are in degrees relative to that absolute.
Grubal Muruch
Member
Grubal Muruch
Member
AMEN!!! It's good to see such a truthful and bold comment. I believe God wants, ALL men to be saved. However, not all, will receive His free gift. I believe John 3:16 includes all, who will receive God's gift... Good for you!!!!
"Romans 10:12-17 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.†How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!â€
However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?†So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. "
The above text shows that 'calling on the name of the Lord' is necessary for salvation. This process can only happen by someone preaching so they can hear. Thus salvation is contingent on the message being heard. If the message is not heard, the person cannot be saved, or God saves them in their ignorance. Thus using this verse to promote Calvinism makes no sense. If God has already saved the elect, then their salvation being contingent on hearing the gospel being preached is not predestination.
This all makes sense when we see that the NT writers did NOT preach Calvinism. It is an Arminian message despite the few texts that seem to give the impression the other way.
However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?†So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. "
The above text shows that 'calling on the name of the Lord' is necessary for salvation. This process can only happen by someone preaching so they can hear. Thus salvation is contingent on the message being heard. If the message is not heard, the person cannot be saved, or God saves them in their ignorance. Thus using this verse to promote Calvinism makes no sense. If God has already saved the elect, then their salvation being contingent on hearing the gospel being preached is not predestination.
This all makes sense when we see that the NT writers did NOT preach Calvinism. It is an Arminian message despite the few texts that seem to give the impression the other way.
Nick
Member
I go to a church that teaches calvinism, and this is true.
It is the hyper-calvinists that don't believe we should evangelise.
Grubal Muruch
Member
AMEN to that...
I do not presume to speak for Calvinism as I know nothing of their teachings other than what I have heard through hearsay, but I was drawn to this question.
A very common question. Answered in bold:
1 Corinthians 1:21-31
King James Version (KJV)
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
handy
Member
It is not God, but neither is it Calvinism. Calvinist writers do not say God created some to be damned. He created Adam sinless, perfect, but Adam fell, and original sin passed upon the human race.
Neither do Calvinists say that God created people with "no voice, no choice, and no will involved...." I cannot begin to count the number of times I have heard different Calvinists talk about subjects like "Choice" and "will." I have repeatedly heard Calvinists speak of mans will as fallen, and that man loves his sin. Concerning choice, Calvinists over and over have taught that man uses his well to rebel because man is a sinner and loves his sin. And the idea that Calvinists say men have no "voice" is of course a total straw man.
Of course when those who oppose Calvinist say the same things over and over and over, even if Calvinists do not teach such things, they can convince themselves that Calvinist do teach these things. My guess is that you have yet to read your very first paragraph of what Calvinists wrote on the subject of the will or choice.
I cannot be sure how you understand the term "WHOSOEVER." But if you like so many, they attach concepts of total liberatarian free will to the extent of a denial of original sin. In other words, the will of man stands has the same characteristics as Adam had before the fall. Actually the term carries no concept of free will at all. I could go into the greek construction, but I am guessing you cannot read greek.
In any case, the word is pas and it is attached to a participle. In english that would be like saying "whosoever is in this house right now will not die in a nuclear holocaust." The term "whosoever" in that sentence is speaking of a definite group. This is not referring to free will, or to the whole population of the planet, and not to all men everywhere in all times. It speaks only of a particular group inside the house at a particular time. The context of John 3:16 is the same. The particular group is the believing ones. It could be translated "all the believing ones." In fact, Tyndale did translate it that way in his version of middle english.
This is a total misunderstanding of the biblical concept of foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is not something God uses to see what decisions you will make, or to look into the future to see what things you will do or say. In foreknowledge, God knows you. Certainly God knows all things that will come to pass, but that is not biblically associated with the word "foreknowlede." Just as Adam knew Eve in her life, God foreknew Eve in the same way. He loves those whom foreknows. God does not foreknow the reprobate. That does not mean he does not know what decision they will make, but he has no experiential loving knowledge of the reprobate.
LOL, you try not to speak in absolutes, but Calvinism is a lie? Can you be honest enough to admit you don't really know what Calvinism teaches and you have misrepresented what they say. Maybe being honest with Calvinism is not a requirement for dealing with Calvinists? Just so you express some sort of hatred? Is that the way it works?
Mondar, are you familiar with Calvinist teaching? I have heard so many bad things about Calvinism. Not that I care but often times I am left unable to comment on what Calvinism represents. In fact I detest such labels. The New Testament is for men to know God for themselves not through any other man except the Christ. Why all the division?