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savedbygrace57
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Thats fine,it is God's will for you to..
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Calvinism---Why bother to evangelize
- Thread starter Grubal Muruch
- Start date
Thats fine,it is God's will for you to..
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savedbygrace57
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Grubal Muruch
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Gazelle
Member
My point is this: can we really know exactly how the Holy Spirit works when he woos someone to find Christ? I say no. With all we study about the Holy Spirit, I find no definitive verses that speak to the exact HOW --the exact method--that the Holy Spirit uses when he convicts someone.
We do all agree, I think, that it is with HIS power that we come under conviction. But can we say that HIS will, HIS thoughts, HIS understanding of our need for Christ is NOT done by "entering" our mind to influence us? Wouldn't that be considered a type of "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit? I say yes.
I would like to hear why it makes a difference as to the HOW the Holy Spirit does His work. Whether from totally external influences, or from some internal influences, why would that matter?
AND what does it matter whether we fully understand this process? Is that part of the "mind of Christ" that we are to have, know?
Don't we all agree that it takes the Holy Spirit to do this? Don't we all agree that it takes the person's positive response to complete it? (For surely no is saying that there is no man's free will to refuse once the Holy Spirit is convicting, right? Is that what this is all about???)
The subject line re: Calvinism--Why bother to evangelize.
Is the argument you two are having over whether or not a Calvinist believes he does it all on his own, or all on the Holy Spirit's power solely?
I'd like to benefit from your discussions, but without knowing each of your premise (and why it's in this thread, alas) you're just confusing me. :eyebrow
We do all agree, I think, that it is with HIS power that we come under conviction. But can we say that HIS will, HIS thoughts, HIS understanding of our need for Christ is NOT done by "entering" our mind to influence us? Wouldn't that be considered a type of "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit? I say yes.
I would like to hear why it makes a difference as to the HOW the Holy Spirit does His work. Whether from totally external influences, or from some internal influences, why would that matter?
AND what does it matter whether we fully understand this process? Is that part of the "mind of Christ" that we are to have, know?
Don't we all agree that it takes the Holy Spirit to do this? Don't we all agree that it takes the person's positive response to complete it? (For surely no is saying that there is no man's free will to refuse once the Holy Spirit is convicting, right? Is that what this is all about???)
The subject line re: Calvinism--Why bother to evangelize.
Is the argument you two are having over whether or not a Calvinist believes he does it all on his own, or all on the Holy Spirit's power solely?
I'd like to benefit from your discussions, but without knowing each of your premise (and why it's in this thread, alas) you're just confusing me. :eyebrow
Grubal Muruch
Member
My point is this: can we really know exactly how the Holy Spirit works when he woos someone to find Christ? I say no. With all we study about the Holy Spirit, I find no definitive verses that speak to the exact HOW --the exact method--that the Holy Spirit uses when he convicts someone.
We do all agree, I think, that it is with HIS power that we come under conviction. But can we say that HIS will, HIS thoughts, HIS understanding of our need for Christ is NOT done by "entering" our mind to influence us? Wouldn't that be considered a type of "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit? I say yes.
I would like to hear why it makes a difference as to the HOW the Holy Spirit does His work. Whether from totally external influences, or from some internal influences, why would that matter?
AND what does it matter whether we fully understand this process? Is that part of the "mind of Christ" that we are to have, know?
Don't we all agree that it takes the Holy Spirit to do this? Don't we all agree that it takes the person's positive response to complete it? (For surely no is saying that there is no man's free will to refuse once the Holy Spirit is convicting, right? Is that what this is all about???)
The subject line re: Calvinism--Why bother to evangelize.
Is the argument you two are having over whether or not a Calvinist believes he does it all on his own, or all on the Holy Spirit's power solely?
I'd like to benefit from your discussions, but without knowing each of your premise (and why it's in this thread, alas) you're just confusing me. :eyebrow
Hi. The disagreement involves, whether we are "predestined by God before the foundation of the world,to be chosen (called the elect) for Salvation and eternal life with God, and damned the rest to Hell (some people won't acknowledge this part of it but it's only logical to bring it up) or God gave man a "free-will" to receive Christ as Savior or reject Him... It's either, mans choice or God chose to save some and thereby, deny others.
Firstly, and more importantly it should be pointed out again, the OP doesn't understand what Calvin taught on this subject or frankly any other so I wont bother trying to untie the mess here.
We evangelize first because the scripture tells us to...Matthew 28:18-20
Secondly, the scripture is the source of both the believer's and unbeliever's rebuke, teaching, and training in holy living...2 Timothy 3:15-17
I'm confident most on this forum understand the mandate, as did Calvin
We evangelize first because the scripture tells us to...Matthew 28:18-20
Secondly, the scripture is the source of both the believer's and unbeliever's rebuke, teaching, and training in holy living...2 Timothy 3:15-17
I'm confident most on this forum understand the mandate, as did Calvin
S
savedbygrace57
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grub
All Elect men. The Gospel is a witness to all men, but its not for all men to be good news of their salvation. Salvation is limited to God's Elect to obtain 2 Tim 2:10
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
For all others The Gospel is sent to be a Savour of death unto death 2 Cor 2:16
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
God sends the Gospel to the non elect in order for them to reject it, disbelieve it, and then He will be Just in the day of Judgment to condemn them for it, for they made Him a Liar..
All Elect men. The Gospel is a witness to all men, but its not for all men to be good news of their salvation. Salvation is limited to God's Elect to obtain 2 Tim 2:10
10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
For all others The Gospel is sent to be a Savour of death unto death 2 Cor 2:16
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
God sends the Gospel to the non elect in order for them to reject it, disbelieve it, and then He will be Just in the day of Judgment to condemn them for it, for they made Him a Liar..
Grubal Muruch
Member
Than, are you saying that God is using a loophole which clears Him of being unjust??? God sends forth His Gospel to a world of lost sinners who are in need of a Savior.
God can not be anything but Godly.
In our human minds/hearts maybe we cant grasp that what ever He does does is Godly.... The starving folks around the world He could speak and food be supplied. He does not He is Godly. He could heal all manor of sickness He chooses not to, He is Godly. He created hell ( what ever you believe hell to be) He is Godly. He could speak and 'save' all of mankind. If God was to set on a cloud and play a harp He would still be Godly.
I have never studied Calvin or any of the old guys. Most folks here will label me a Calvinist, because of what i see/read in Scripture.
The reason to evangelize is straight forward...He says too
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
In our human minds/hearts maybe we cant grasp that what ever He does does is Godly.... The starving folks around the world He could speak and food be supplied. He does not He is Godly. He could heal all manor of sickness He chooses not to, He is Godly. He created hell ( what ever you believe hell to be) He is Godly. He could speak and 'save' all of mankind. If God was to set on a cloud and play a harp He would still be Godly.
I have never studied Calvin or any of the old guys. Most folks here will label me a Calvinist, because of what i see/read in Scripture.
The reason to evangelize is straight forward...He says too
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
A very thought provoking post. I like the insight into exactly what men expect of God for Him to be Godly. I know Job was quick to acknowledge his foolishness at the sight of him. I've never studied Calvin either. I figure since God reveals to mere children what He hides from the learned and scholarly, I might as well just ask Him to show me and figure He will give me what I need to know.
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savedbygrace57
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grub
I am saying what I posted. Read it again post 87
I am saying what I posted. Read it again post 87
I find it interesting that we centuries after Calvin lived try to explain what he thought. We must be very careful not interpret only what is left of his writings and thoughts because we can only get a sense of what he was thinking as opposed to knowing what he was thinking.
Predestination brings so much controversy and I find the simplest definition for me is that we misinterpret the word to mean pre-determined which implies God choses who would be saved as opposed to "pre" being before and/or planned and destination being a course or journey that is to be achieved. If the destination is heaven and eternity and pre is that God planned it, He therefore planned that we would all have the opportunity to achieve that destination (we also can all choose to not accept it).
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
God is all knowing and therefore He knows because He sees the beginning from the end that many will not choose life, they choose death He only observes the decision for He will not override our decision (He will intercede and provide a means of escape BUT He will not make the choice for us).
To sum up Calvin observed a truth with the perspective of a man. Did he get it clear? I think not but remember He was trying to explain to himself why many choose not the life God offers and why others choose it but later walk away from that choice. Our concern should not be whether Calvin is right or wrong or whether we have interpreted his thoughts correctly our thoughts should be to those perishing unless they have an opportunity to hear the gospel of hope.
How many of us responded the first time to God's call to repentance? Most of us would say we grasped many times at this concept before revelation arose and we were redeemed.
Weight up not the light matters such as Calvinism:true or false but the heavy matters such as whether the next person we see is going to have eternal life or eternal death.
So often we Christians ask the wrong question and Calvinism is it true or is it false? is the wrong question.
John O
Predestination brings so much controversy and I find the simplest definition for me is that we misinterpret the word to mean pre-determined which implies God choses who would be saved as opposed to "pre" being before and/or planned and destination being a course or journey that is to be achieved. If the destination is heaven and eternity and pre is that God planned it, He therefore planned that we would all have the opportunity to achieve that destination (we also can all choose to not accept it).
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
God is all knowing and therefore He knows because He sees the beginning from the end that many will not choose life, they choose death He only observes the decision for He will not override our decision (He will intercede and provide a means of escape BUT He will not make the choice for us).
To sum up Calvin observed a truth with the perspective of a man. Did he get it clear? I think not but remember He was trying to explain to himself why many choose not the life God offers and why others choose it but later walk away from that choice. Our concern should not be whether Calvin is right or wrong or whether we have interpreted his thoughts correctly our thoughts should be to those perishing unless they have an opportunity to hear the gospel of hope.
How many of us responded the first time to God's call to repentance? Most of us would say we grasped many times at this concept before revelation arose and we were redeemed.
Weight up not the light matters such as Calvinism:true or false but the heavy matters such as whether the next person we see is going to have eternal life or eternal death.
So often we Christians ask the wrong question and Calvinism is it true or is it false? is the wrong question.
John O