CAN A MAN RAPE HIS WIFE?

[D-D-W]

It says the opposite.
It says a womans' body belongs to the man and V V.

The problem with that viewpoint is that biblical authority and submission ALWAYS is from the bottom up; and NEVER from the top down:

Matthew 20:25
But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,

Our Lord specifically contrasted His kingdom way of things as opposed to Rome's heavy handed authoritarian rule.

 

[D-D-W]

Are you really saying that 1 Corinthians supports rape?? There must be some misunderstanding here.

I remember the debate about that during the 1970s.
Most evangelical groups said there could be no such thing as marital rape, and based it on 1 Cor 7.4 and Eph 5.22.

But again they were assuming the "lord it over" gentile pattern of leadership our Lord said to avoid.

"Man wants sex and wife MUST submit to her husband." That is entirely wrong IMO.

 

[D-D-W]

I'd hate to see a marriage where the two spouses have to resort to raping one another.

Um - you do realize that a woman raping a man is physically impossible? Or do you not know that the term "rape" means forcible penetration?

Our word comes from the name of a particular type of dueling sword called a "rapier." It is heavier and more sturdy than the fencing foils you usually see. To be raped was to be run thru with that sword.

Most states have changed their legal terminology to something like "criminal sexual conduct." (Michigan)

 

[D-D-W]

Marital rape is abuse.

I agree.

The woman being abused is allowed divorce, even in the Talmud.

Talmud - yes.
Christian scriptures - not so clear.

 

[D-D-W]

Wow this thread is taking off. From what I read Wondering isn't talking about rape. It's the authority of the husband over the Wife's body (and vice versa). Meaning she can't cut him off. The grey area is, is the man going to be a punk about it?

What no one realizes, is that Paul was coming from the opposite mindset in Corinth. Yes he specifically put in language to make it even between men and women. But the Jewish mindset that he grew up with, our Lord and all His disciples grew up with, and even the first converts in Corinth grew up with, was THIS:

SEX is a Wife's RIGHT and a husband's responsibility.

And NOT the other way around.

 

[Edward]

What no one realizes, is that Paul was coming from the opposite mindset in Corinth. Yes he specifically put in language to make it even between men and women. But the Jewish mindset that he grew up with, our Lord and all His disciples grew up with, and even the first converts in Corinth grew up with, was THIS:

SEX is a Wife's RIGHT and a husband's responsibility.

And NOT the other way around.

That could be. I'll need to ponder that one a wee bit.

Perhaps I answered that from a man's perspective and so got it wrong? Not having have ever felt it from a woman's perspective. I do know one thing though (from paying attention, lol.) That women's sex drive is at least as strong as a man's.

 

[Edward]

SEX is a Wife's RIGHT and a husband's responsibility.

Tell that to Leah!

 

[D-D-W]

Tell that to Leah!

Well, she demonstrated it by trying to get Jacob's attentions away from Rachel.

Centuries later a wife's "conjugal rights" were enshrined into Law in Exodus 21.10. One of the very few places the Bible says someone has "rights."

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I remember the debate about that during the 1970s.
Most evangelical groups said there could be no such thing as marital rape, and based it on 1 Cor 7.4 and Eph 5.22.

But again they were assuming the "lord it over" gentile pattern of leadership our Lord said to avoid.

"Man wants sex and wife MUST submit to her husband." That is entirely wrong IMO.

Not entirely.
God said, "be fruitful and multiply".
Women often don't want sex while the man's hormones are still driving him.
It's these driving hormones that bring about "be fruitful and multiply."
Some where there has to be some mutual agreement.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree.

Talmud - yes.
Christian scriptures - not so clear.

Not at all in Hebrew Holy Scriptures.
That's why it was addressed in the Talmud.
That is one of many reasons why the Tulmud has so much respect.

 

[crossnote]

Um - you do realize that a woman raping a man is physically impossible? Or do you not know that the term "rape" means forcible penetration?

Our word comes from the name of a particular type of dueling sword called a "rapier." It is heavier and more sturdy than the fencing foils you usually see. To be raped was to be run thru with that sword.

Most states have changed their legal terminology to something like "criminal sexual conduct." (Michigan)

Good one,
"I'd hate to see a marriage where the two spouses have to resort to "criminal sexual conduct."
(Somehow that doesn't come across as graphically poetical as I intended )

 

[D-D-W]

Not at all in Hebrew Holy Scriptures.
That's why it was addressed in the Talmud.
That is one of many reasons why the Tulmud has so much respect.

The Talmud has respect? Since when?

I know of very few Evangelical or Mainline pastors who ever even heard of the Talmud; and those that have heard of it, denounce it as anti-christian propaganda.

And even where you think it would have some respect, the Messianic community, it is a mixed bag. Some congregations dismiss it entirely; and others embrace it as much as the traditional Jews do. The majority are in the middle on it, finding the historical information and exegetical processes useful; but rejecting the parts that contradict our Lord's Messiahship.

And I think you refer to the Babylonian Talmud. The Jerusalem Talmud has only recently started to gain traction in the Orthodox Jewish community; and again, most christians are not even aware of its existence.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

A Christian commentary is almost the same as a Talmud.
But the Talmud adds to places that need adding.
I come across many Christians that don't know what the Talmud is.
Those same Christians don't know the story Samson and Dalilah.
Pastors that speak down about the Talmud are the same ones that know nothing that is in them.
As I have said before, the Talmud is expensive.
The average Joe can't afford one and as a Christian will never know what is in it.
I have reverence for the Talmud yet admit I know very little compared to a Jewish person who has been taught by it.
I've had enough Jewish friends in my life to know that it is a Holy Book.

 

[D-D-W]

Rollo Tamasi This is getting increasingly off topic. If you want to talk Talmud please start another thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

Rollo Tamasi This is getting increasingly off topic. If you want to talk Talmud please start another thread.

I grew up in NY and also had Jewish friends that studied the Talmud. If I remember correctly it covered parenting and marriage and every other aspect of life.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I grew up in NY and also had Jewish friends that studied the Talmud. If I remember correctly it covered parenting and marriage and every other aspect of life.

What would he know?

 

[GodsGrace]

What would he know?

Who?
Mr. Talmud or my friend?

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

MykeAkin

Rape is about control, lust and violance. DEFINETLY NOT ABOUT LOVE!!
Ephesians 5:25, " 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her."

Somehow, from this verse, I don't see Christ raping a woman.

 

[Edward]

Well, she demonstrated it by trying to get Jacob's attentions away from Rachel.

Centuries later a wife's "conjugal rights" were enshrined into Law in Exodus 21.10. One of the very few places the Bible says someone has "rights."

No I don't think she did. Rachel wanted some of Leah's Mandrakes and Leah told her go pound sand, but then Rachel said, I'll let Jacob sleep with you tonight...so the deal was made. So it was Rachel who was keeping Jacob away from her. Probably under threat, you know how women are, lol.

 

[D-D-W]

No I don't think she did. Rachel wanted some of Leah's Mandrakes and Leah told her go pound sand, but then Rachel said, I'll let Jacob sleep with you tonight...so the deal was made. So it was Rachel who was keeping Jacob away from her. Probably under threat, you know how women are, lol.

Mandrakes had a specific use in the ancient mid east. They were thought to increase sexual desire and fertility. The Hebrew word for mandrakes is dudaim, whose etymology might suggest a connection with dodim, "sexual love." The only other biblical mention is in Song of Solomon.

Song of Solomon 7:13a
The mandrakes have given forth fragrance,

Very similar to this:

Song of Solomon 4:16
“Awake, O north wind, And come, wind of the south; Make my garden breathe out fragrance, Let its spices be wafted abroad. May my beloved come into his garden And eat its choice fruits!”

Her "garden" was her genitals and the fragrance was that of arousal; sent out to entice Solomon to come to her.

So desiring mandrakes was an overtly sexual idea.