Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[glorydaz]

Why do I have to deal with them? I believe every word in the Bible, including the ones I posted. Many are called...God draws all men. Few are chosen because not all are willing to forsake all and follow Him. Of course Jesus knew who would come...He's God. Repentance was granted because He saw into our heart. We may fool ourselves, but we can't fool God. He chose us because He's known our hearts from our conception. He knew we would choose Him before we knew we would choose Him. That still does not negate our choosing. I have never claimed God is not greater than man...He knows all things. But that does not negate man's free will. All men are called to repentance...He is not willing that any should perish but come to repentance. You would think, with your natural understanding that all would come to repentance if that was God's will. There's that strange thing that pits God's sovereignty against man's free will. They both exist.

But how can we in our ownselves choose God if the natural man does not receive the things of God?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If God were to wait until mankind chooses him none would... Romans 3:10-11

God doesn't wait....God controls all the external circumstances of man...He draws all...not just some as the Calvanists claim.

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The grace of God, as well, as been extended to all. Notice how the grace of God bringeth salvation.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

It is through God's grace and the power of the Gospel message that the "natural" man is able to respond to the Holy Spirit. God prepares our heart to receive His grace and mercy. Then it up to man to resist or accept. If that weren't the case, then man could not be held accountable for his sin...which he is, for the wages of sin is death.

So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

God's plan from the beginning was for man to have free will. God's sovereignty and man's free will are not incompatible...He created us for a relationship of love. Love must be freely given.

That's the point of spreading the Gospel...the Gospel has power to convince us of our sin. At that point, man must choose good or evil...he must choose to go on living his life as usual or trusting in God.

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

 

[archangel_300]

Did God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau for no apparent reason? The Almighty knows what we are going to be before we are born. So God is telling us to love when he himself hate without a reason. What kind of God is that? I thought God was love.

No one is saying that you can obtain salvation from works but faith without works is dead. No one has more faith than Jesus but he also show us his work by keeping God's law.

I really don't know... that's something only God knows. I can't answer the question why God chooses some and leaves others in sin for them to perish. Honestly to me it does seem a little unfair, but that's what the Bible states and I have to stand by God's Word. Perhaps I have a flawed interpretation of this verse... How do you interpret this verse?
God doesn't hate with out a reason. God is love but remember that we are all sinners.
When Judgment Day comes we will be judged according to our works whether or not they are good or evil. The penalty we experience will be perfectly just. "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth".

 

[archangel_300]

Archangel wrote,

"No one is ever going to come to the Judgment throne of God and say "I truly wanted you and desired for salvation but I was not chosen by you". Every single person that is judged by God and ends up in hell never wants Christ anyway."

Well, what about the poor souls who cry "Lord, Lord" on judgement day, and hear "I never kmew you.'"?

And then there are the "By this we know's" scattered through scripture. What I'm trying to say is, the question, "What must I do to be saved?" seems honored by the Spirit. The question could be rhetorical, but that's a big gamble to take. It could actually mean that I not only have to choose salvation, but I must do what I must to see it through, i.e. pursue holiness. We know that liars are rejected. What if I say "I believe" but am lying? And am in denial or confused and don't know that I'm lying?

Fortunately, His sheep know His voice, and can ask Him about all this. In fact, since we are saved through faith, which comes from hearing, asking Him how we are doing seems like a pretty good idea.

truthlover

Again... I have stand by God's Word and the promise He makes.

Jeremiah 29:13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

 

[archangel_300]

God doesn't wait....God controls all the external circumstances of man...He draws all...not just some as the Calvanists claim.

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

I think what is meant by this verse is that he will draw all men meaning both Jews and Gentiles and from every nation on earth to Him. But this cannot mean every single individual. How about those who are in a remote tribe who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ. How can they be drawn to Him if they were never exposed to the gospel in the first place?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how
shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[h]
Who bring glad tidings of good things!â€

The scriptures state that God will judge those who do not know God on the last day. Those people who never head of the gospel will be judged according to their works. So if someone never had the chance to hear the gospel in their life it just means that they were not a part of God's election program in the first place.

Notice what the scriptures state here...

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?â€
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a]heal them.’

It is through God's grace and the power of the Gospel message that the "natural" man is able to respond to the Holy Spirit. God prepares our heart to receive His grace and mercy. Then it up to man to resist or accept. If that weren't the case, then man could not be held accountable for his sin...which he is, for the wages of sin is death.

I would disagree, I don't think the natural can respond unless God gives him/her "ears to hear and eyes to see"... Only God can do that for us. Christ heals the blind and gives deaf ears the ability to hear.
The Word of God is the breath of God and as God breathed into Adam to give him physical life, the gospel breathes spiritual life into us so that we realize God is real and He is the Lord Jesus Christ.

An atheist is a primary example of a "natural" man. You can preach to them the gospel of Jesus Christ and they will reject you time and time again. What eventually turns them around if they do turn around and believe in Jesus Christ? How do they suddenly realize that Christ is Lord? It's because of the power of God's Word alone, I don't think it's because they decided to choose to believe. Something convinced them in their heart to believe and they can't choose to believe unless the Word of God and the Holy Spririt work within them first.

 

[glorydaz]

Did God chose to love Jacob and hate Esau for no apparent reason? The Almighty knows what we are going to be before we are born. So God is telling us to love when he himself hate without a reason. What kind of God is that? I thought God was love.

No one is saying that you can obtain salvation from works but faith without works is dead. No one has more faith than Jesus but he also show us his work by keeping God's law.

I really don't know... that's something only God knows. I can't answer the question why God chooses some and leaves others in sin for them to perish. Honestly to me it does seem a little unfair, but that's what the Bible states and I have to stand by God's Word. Perhaps I have a flawed interpretation of this verse... How do you interpret this verse?
God doesn't hate with out a reason. God is love but remember that we are all sinners.
When Judgment Day comes we will be judged according to our works whether or not they are good or evil. The penalty we experience will be perfectly just. "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth".

In this verse, Paul is referring back to Malachi....They are speaking of Esau ( as father of the Edomites) being rejected and Jacob (Israel) being chosen for the Promise.

The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

God doesn't hate anyone, as we know the term...He doesn't even hate the Edomite as we can see here.

Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy brother: thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian; because thou wast a stranger in his land.

God hates sin..not people.

 

[archangel_300]

In this verse, Paul is referring back to Malachi....They are speaking of Esau ( as father of the Edomites) being rejected and Jacob (Israel) being chosen for the Promise.

The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

God doesn't hate anyone, as we know the term...He doesn't even hate the Edomite as we can see here.
[quote="Deuteronomy 23:7":2ohtuku5]Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy brother: thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian; because thou wast a stranger in his land.

God hates sin..not people.[/quote:2ohtuku5]

Correct this was referring to Jacob who was chosen for the Promise, but this was used as an example of God's election program. Down a few verses we read God states "I will have compassion on whom I have compassion and I will have mercy on who I have mercy". and another example is used and that is Pharaoh. It is not of him who wills nor of him who runs but of God who shows mercy.

Romans 9 is a tough pill to swallow but it's God's Word and I really don't know how else to interpret it.

 

[glorydaz]

God doesn't wait....God controls all the external circumstances of man...He draws all...not just some as the Calvanists claim.
[quote="John 12:31-33":3rvzveia] Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

I think what is meant by this verse is that he will draw all men meaning both Jews and Gentiles and from every nation on earth to Him. But this cannot mean every single individual. How about those who are in a remote tribe who never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ. How can they be drawn to Him if they were never exposed to the gospel in the first place? [/quote:3rvzveia]
The scripture says God draws all men. Romans 2 tells us man is without excuse for the eternal law of God is written on the heart...He gives us each a conscience, and we see the glory of God in the world around us. Since God knows, by His foreknowledge, who will come, I have no doubt He will see the Gospel preached to those who will. The Gospel was preached to the whole world during the times of the Apostles and it's been preached since then to all nations.

The scriptures state that God will judge those who do not know God on the last day. Those people who never head of the gospel will be judged according to their works. So if someone never had the chance to hear the gospel in their life it just means that they were not a part of God's election program in the first place.

God's love extends to everyone. His "election program" simply means He knows who are His and whosoever will come shall be saved.

Notice what the scriptures state here...

Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?â€
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘ Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a]heal them.’

Yes, and notice God sees into the heart. "Their hearts have grown dull."

It is through God's grace and the power of the Gospel message that the "natural" man is able to respond to the Holy Spirit. God prepares our heart to receive His grace and mercy. Then it up to man to resist or accept. If that weren't the case, then man could not be held accountable for his sin...which he is, for the wages of sin is death.

I would disagree, I don't think the natural can respond unless God gives him/her "ears to hear and eyes to see"... Only God can do that for us. Christ heals the blind and gives deaf ears the ability to hear.
The Word of God is the breath of God and as God breathed into Adam to give him physical life, the gospel breathes spiritual life into us so that we realize God is real and He is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Why do you disagree? Do you see where I said, "God prepares our heart to receive His grace and mercy? Once our heart is prepared and our circumstance are just right, we respond to the power of the Gospel message. That's God's grace in action. We still must choose to accept or reject.

 

[archangel_300]

Why do you disagree? Do you see where I said, "God prepares our heart to receive His grace and mercy? Once our heart is prepared and our circumstance are just right, we respond to the power of the Gospel message. That's God's grace in action. We still must choose to accept or reject.

If we can choose to reject can we then thwart God's plan of redemption?
If you are saying that God forknew who would choose him and who would reject him why is there a choice in the first place?

 

[glorydaz]

In this verse, Paul is referring back to Malachi....They are speaking of Esau ( as father of the Edomites) being rejected and Jacob (Israel) being chosen for the Promise.

[quote=" Malachi 1":a5enypcs]The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

God doesn't hate anyone, as we know the term...He doesn't even hate the Edomite as we can see here.
[quote="Deuteronomy 23:7":a5enypcs]Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy brother: thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian; because thou wast a stranger in his land.

God hates sin..not people.[/quote:a5enypcs]

Correct this was referring to Jacob who was chosen for the Promise, but this was used as an example of God's election program. Down a few verses we read God states "I will have compassion on whom I have compassion and I will have mercy on who I have mercy". and another example is used and that is Pharaoh. It is not of him who wills nor of him who runs but of God who shows mercy.

Romans 9 is a tough pill to swallow but it's God's Word and I really don't know how else to interpret it.[/quote:a5enypcs]

It sounds to me like you're a Calvinist. Do you also say that God didn't love the whole world, but only the elect?

 

[archangel_300]

Why do you disagree? Do you see where I said, "God prepares our heart to receive His grace and mercy? Once our heart is prepared and our circumstance are just right, we respond to the power of the Gospel message. That's God's grace in action. We still must choose to accept or reject.

If we can choose to reject can we then thwart God's plan of redemption?
If you are saying that God forknew who would choose him and who would reject him why is there a choice in the first place?

My argument is flawed.

I don't know... Perhaps God forknew who would choose him first and thus he decided he would pay for their sin.

 

[glorydaz]

Why do you disagree? Do you see where I said, "God prepares our heart to receive His grace and mercy? Once our heart is prepared and our circumstance are just right, we respond to the power of the Gospel message. That's God's grace in action. We still must choose to accept or reject.

If we can choose to reject can we then thwart God's plan of redemption?
If you are saying that God forknew who would choose him and who would reject him why is there a choice in the first place?

Do you see God's sovereignty and man's free will as incompatible?

God's plan of redemption includes man's free will, and His foreknowledge includes it as well.
It isn't an either or proposition with God.

God can't be limited on either end of the spectrum, as much as man would like to do so.
This is a perfect example of why we need to take the whole Word of God to even begin to understand God's plan for mankind.

 

[archangel_300]

It sounds to me like you're a Calvinist. Do you also say that God didn't love the whole world, but only the elect?

Perhaps I am... I just read the scripture and try to make sense and adhere to everything I read.
Seems like then I am a Calvanist...

God never paid the wages of sin for every individual... that I'm sure of. If Christ paid the wages of sin for every individual then it's the same issue we run into God not being just because he would not be honoring the blood of Christ.

So yes God paid the wages of sin only for His elect.

But from what I gather in the scriptures... how God chose the apostles although it appeared they chose to follow Him after he called just makes me suspicious that the same applies to our calling to salvation as well.

 

[glorydaz]

[quote="archangel_300":3t5amp5o]

Why do you disagree? Do you see where I said, "God prepares our heart to receive His grace and mercy? Once our heart is prepared and our circumstance are just right, we respond to the power of the Gospel message. That's God's grace in action. We still must choose to accept or reject.

If we can choose to reject can we then thwart God's plan of redemption?
If you are saying that God forknew who would choose him and who would reject him why is there a choice in the first place?

My argument is flawed.

I don't know... Perhaps God forknew who would choose him first and thus he decided he would pay for their sin.[/quote:3t5amp5o]
He paid for all the sins of mankind. He became sin for us...the sins of the whole world rested on Jesus at the cross. That's why all men are reconciled to God...we all have "access" to the throne. Only those who choose to enter through the veil will find salvation. The prison doors are open...who will choose to stay within the confines of the prison, and who will choose to be free...that is the question.

 

[archangel_300]

Why do you disagree? Do you see where I said, "God prepares our heart to receive His grace and mercy? Once our heart is prepared and our circumstance are just right, we respond to the power of the Gospel message. That's God's grace in action. We still must choose to accept or reject.

If we can choose to reject can we then thwart God's plan of redemption?
If you are saying that God forknew who would choose him and who would reject him why is there a choice in the first place?

Do you see God's sovereignty and man's free will as incompatible?

God's plan of redemption includes man's free will, and His foreknowledge includes it as well.
It isn't an either or proposition with God.

God can't be limited on either end of the spectrum, as much as man would like to do so.
This is a perfect example of why we need to take the whole Word of God to even begin to understand God's plan for mankind.

No, but as far as I can see from the scriptures salvation doesn't appear to be due to our free will.
Who wouldn't choose to be with Christ forevermore? If everyone realized God's Word is true I don't think there is a single individual who choose to want to spend eternity under God's wrath instead.

 

[archangel_300]

He paid for all the sins of mankind. He became sin for us...the sins of the whole world rested on Jesus at the cross. That's why all men are reconciled to God...we all have "access" to the throne. Only those who choose to enter through the veil will find salvation. The prison doors are open...who will choose to stay within the confines of the prison, and who will choose to be free...that is the question.

This is where i disagree.
If Christ paid the wages of sin by spending eternity under God's wrath for every sin that entered this universe then it means no one can go to hell. If Christ paid for the sins of every single person and now they can still end up in hell to pay for their sin again then God is not just. God would not be honoring the blood of Christ.

 

[glorydaz]

It sounds to me like you're a Calvinist. Do you also say that God didn't love the whole world, but only the elect?

Perhaps I am... I just read the scripture and try to make sense and adhere to everything I read.
Seems like then I am a Calvanist...

God never paid the wages of sin for every individual... that I'm sure of. If Christ paid the wages of sin for every individual then it's the same issue we run into God not being just because he would not be honoring the blood of Christ.

So yes God paid the wages of sin only for His elect.

But from what I gather in the scriptures... how God chose the apostles although it appeared they chose to follow Him after he called just makes me suspicious that the same applies to our calling to salvation as well.

He called...they chose to follow. There you see God's plan for mankind worked out before your eyes.
The Apostles had a choice...He knew when He called them they would follow.

If we we not given a choice, we could not be held accountable for our sins.

Of course God is just....salvation is a free gift offered to all men.
How much more can God do? He provides the sacrifice, He gives freely of His mercy and grace, He draws and call all men to repent and believe. If they don't accept the gift, they will die in their sins. It isn't that Jesus didn't pay for all sin, He did. In order to appropriate a gift, one must reach out and take it, otherwise it lies there unredeemed.

 

[glorydaz]

He paid for all the sins of mankind. He became sin for us...the sins of the whole world rested on Jesus at the cross. That's why all men are reconciled to God...we all have "access" to the throne. Only those who choose to enter through the veil will find salvation. The prison doors are open...who will choose to stay within the confines of the prison, and who will choose to be free...that is the question.

This is where i disagree.
If Christ paid the wages of sin by spending eternity under God's wrath for every sin that entered this universe then it means no one can go to hell. If Christ paid for the sins of every single person and now they can still end up in hell to pay for their sin again then God is not just. God would not be honoring the blood of Christ.

In the first place, Christ is not spending eternity under God's wrath. Where did you hear that?

In the second place, He did die for the sins of the whole world.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[archangel_300]

He called...they chose to follow. There you see God's plan for mankind worked out before your eyes.
The Apostles had a choice...He knew when He called them they would follow.

If we we not given a choice, we could not be held accountable for our sins.

Of course God is just....salvation is a free gift offered to all men.
How much more can God do? He provides the sacrifice, He gives freely of His mercy and grace, He draws and call all men to repent and believe. If they don't accept the gift, they will die in their sins. It isn't that Jesus didn't pay for all sin, He did. In order to appropriate a gift, one must reach out and take it, otherwise it lies there unredeemed.

I have trouble with this verse.

To me it sounds like he's trying to tell the apostles, "hey you think you chose me when I called you but really I'm the one who chose you."

John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

 

[archangel_300]

In the first place, Christ is not spending eternity under God's wrath. Where did you hear that?

In the second place, He did die for the sins of the whole world.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Why would God hold unsaved mankind to a standard he doesn't hold to those whom he chooses? This makes God unjust. The penalty and wages of sin is death and that death is eternal damnation.
All mankind are sinners, the price for all my sin is the same as any other person. I'm no different. So If Christ did not pay for my sin by spending an eternity under God's wrath for each of my sins then God cannot be just. How can it be that God can forgive my sin without punishment and yet damn someone else into hell in eternity for theirs? God doesn't forgive by letting sin go without punishment God again would be unjust if he winked at evil. If God could forgive and forget the way we humans do then Christ never would have to come to earth to die in my place as the perfect human substitute for sin. Christ death on the cross is meaningless if he died without suffering under God's wrath, this makes his physical death no different from all the other Christian martyrs who died under crucifixion or other circumstances. Christ paid the price for my sin and that price is eternal damnation as in "eye for eye tooth for tooth" for each sin I would commit in my life.

 

[glorydaz]

No, but as far as I can see from the scriptures salvation doesn't appear to be due to our free will.
Who wouldn't choose to be with Christ forevermore? If everyone realized God's Word is true I don't think there is a single individual who choose to want to spend eternity under God's wrath instead.

It's a joint effort. God does all the work and we accept or reject.

Many people realize God's word is true, but they aren't willing to forsake all to follow Him.

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

Think of the serpent on the pole Moses raised up in the wilderness. There were poisonous snakes...all the children of Israel had to do was look at the serpent on the pole and they would be saved from the poison. Poison is sin...we've all been bitten. It seems almost too easy...look and be saved. How many are tempted to run to a doctor, or suck out the poison themselves, or run around in circles hoping the poison will leave them? When we cease our own effort, trust and believe, then we will be saved. Many many people see the light, but they love the darkness more than the light. It's pretty much that simple.

I will say this. There seems to be so many people who reject God's grace and reject the sacrifice Jesus paid for their sins. But it ain't over til the fat lady sings. Some people reach the end of their lives before they repent. Some are brought to such a low place....dining with swine like the prodigal son, before they repent. Turning to God and looking upon Jesus is a lifetime goal. God is infinitely patient and long suffering. He will continue to call and to draw people until their heart is so seared and dead they are past believing.