Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[glorydaz]

He called...they chose to follow. There you see God's plan for mankind worked out before your eyes.
The Apostles had a choice...He knew when He called them they would follow.

If we we not given a choice, we could not be held accountable for our sins.

Of course God is just....salvation is a free gift offered to all men.
How much more can God do? He provides the sacrifice, He gives freely of His mercy and grace, He draws and call all men to repent and believe. If they don't accept the gift, they will die in their sins. It isn't that Jesus didn't pay for all sin, He did. In order to appropriate a gift, one must reach out and take it, otherwise it lies there unredeemed.

I have trouble with this verse.

To me it sounds like he's trying to tell the apostles, "hey you think you chose me when I called you but really I'm the one who chose you."

John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

It's a hard verse to understand...while still considering the whole Word of God. That's the difficulty many have reconciling God's sovereignty with man's free will. They almost seem to not agree, but we can be assured they do. We're to believe, repent, come, and strive to enter in...and then He goes and says something like that.

We can't forget that God sees the hearts of man. He knows us better than we do ourselves. He knows when we're ready to turn to him. We don't choose to follow Him until He has prepared our hearts to receive Him. No effort on our part...we can't buy into it...we can't work into it...we must come humbly in obedience to His voice. When we try to come before He knows we have been through everything we need to, it will be for naught. Getting man to the point of humility is a work of the Lord. When He says He draws all....who knows when that will be? Who knows what it will take to prepare our hearts to hear His voice? It's a great mystery, but one thing we do know....once we were blind, but now we see.

 

[archangel_300]

He called...they chose to follow. There you see God's plan for mankind worked out before your eyes.
The Apostles had a choice...He knew when He called them they would follow.

If we we not given a choice, we could not be held accountable for our sins.

Of course God is just....salvation is a free gift offered to all men.
How much more can God do? He provides the sacrifice, He gives freely of His mercy and grace, He draws and call all men to repent and believe. If they don't accept the gift, they will die in their sins. It isn't that Jesus didn't pay for all sin, He did. In order to appropriate a gift, one must reach out and take it, otherwise it lies there unredeemed.

I have trouble with this verse.

To me it sounds like he's trying to tell the apostles, "hey you think you chose me when I called you but really I'm the one who chose you."

John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

It's a hard verse to understand...while still considering the whole Word of God. That's the difficulty many have reconciling God's sovereignty with man's free will. They almost seem to not agree, but we can be assured they do. We're to believe, repent, come, and strive to enter in...and then He goes and says something like that.

We can't forget that God sees the hearts of man. He knows us better than we do ourselves. He knows when we're ready to turn to him. We don't choose to follow Him until He has prepared our hearts to receive Him. No effort on our part...we can't buy into it...we can't work into it...we must come humbly in obedience to His voice. When we try to come before He knows we have been through everything we need to, it will be for naught. Getting man to the point of humility is a work of the Lord. When He says He draws all....who knows when that will be? Who knows what it will take to prepare our hearts to hear His voice? It's a great mystery, but one thing we do know....once we were blind, but now we see.

I agree.

 

[glorydaz]

In the first place, Christ is not spending eternity under God's wrath. Where did you hear that?

In the second place, He did die for the sins of the whole world.
[quote="1 John 2:2":96ko4kkn]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Why would God hold unsaved mankind to a standard he doesn't hold to those whom he chooses? This makes God unjust. The penalty and wages of sin is death and that death is eternal damnation.
All mankind are sinners, the price for all my sin is the same as any other person. I'm no different. So If Christ did not pay for my sin by spending an eternity under God's wrath for each of my sins then God cannot be just. How can it be that God can forgive my sin without punishment and yet damn someone else into hell in eternity for theirs? God doesn't forgive by letting sin go without punishment God again would be unjust if he winked at evil. If God could forgive and forget the way we humans do then Christ never would have to come to earth to die in my place as the perfect human substitute for sin. Christ death on the cross is meaningless if he died without suffering under God's wrath, this makes his physical death no different from all the other Christian martyrs who died under crucifixion or other circumstances. Christ paid the price for my sin and that price is eternal damnation as in "eye for eye tooth for tooth" for each sin I would commit in my life.[/quote:96ko4kkn]

Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth was never God's command to begin with....Jesus straightened that misunderstanding out when He came to the earth.

No....Jesus was God. God became flesh and took the sins of the whole world that whosoever believeth on Jesus Christ would be saved. Think of what it was for a holy righteous God to become sin. The price was huge. How can God be under God's wrath? Jesus was despised, scorned, beaten, and crucified in the most horrific way while being totally innocent. He was slain as the sacrificial lamb...not tormented throughout eternity under the wrath of God, but slain.

God doesn't hold the unsaved to a higher standard than He holds us. We're all offered the same gift. We are all held to the same standard...those who accept their Creator will have eternal life. Those who don't will die. If the creature doesn't believe in His Creator, the wages of his sin is death. Now if you want to get into eternal torment, we'll really open up a can of worms. When I read the scripture, I see death is eternal separation from God. I don't hold to suffering for eternity in a lake of fire. I see outer darkness, but will admit...the afterlife of the unsaved is a mystery to me. In Revelation, we see death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire. I know many will condemn me for not believing in eternal torment as some verses from the Word seem to say. I simply don't see that in God's character, and the Word about hell is often misinterpreted to suit man's understanding. I'll just leave it there and let the fiery darts come on in. :biglaugh

Jesus ascended to the throne of God where He is all in all with the Father once again. He has returned to His former glory having done the work He came to do.

 

[archangel_300]

Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth was never God's command to begin with....Jesus straightened that misunderstanding out when He came to the earth.

No....Jesus was God. God became flesh and took the sins of the whole world that whosoever believeth on Jesus Christ would be saved. Think of what it was for a holy righteous God to become sin. The price was huge. How can God be under God's wrath? Jesus was despised, scorned, beaten, and crucified in the most horrific way while being totally innocent. He was slain as the sacrificial lamb...not tormented throughout eternity under the wrath of God, but slain.

God doesn't hold the unsaved to a higher standard than He holds us. We're all offered the same gift. We are all held to the same standard...those who accept their Creator will have eternal life. Those who don't will die. If the creature doesn't believe in His Creator, the wages of his sin is death. Now if you want to get into eternal torment, we'll really open up a can of worms. When I read the scripture, I see death is eternal separation from God. I don't hold to suffering for eternity in a lake of fire. I see outer darkness, but will admit...the afterlife of the unsaved is a mystery to me. In Revelation, we see death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire. I know many will condemn me for not believing in eternal torment as some verses from the Word seem to say. I simply don't see that in God's character, and the Word about hell is often misinterpreted to suit man's understanding. I'll just leave it there and let the fiery darts come on in. :biglaugh

Jesus ascended to the throne of God where He is all in all with the Father once again. He has returned to His former glory having done the work He came to do.

Hi Glory,

Here are some verses I'll throw out there:

2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.â€

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

Matthew 12:36
But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

The law of God states "eye for eye tooth for tooth" and it is this law that will judge *unsaved* mankind on the day of God's Judgment. When Christ came to earth he told us not to judge "eye for eye tooth for tooth" because we are not under the law but under grace. But everyone who is not under grace remains under the law.

My firm belief is that when Christ comes he will judge each and every sin that has ever entered into this universe *perfectly* because God is the perfect essence of justice. The scales of justice will be *perfectly* balanced.

Sin is a debt that accumulates and each and every sin must come under judgment and intense scrutiny by the Almighty God and the penalty for each one must be given according to the righteous judgement of God. As it is written "every idle word man shall have to give an account for". I'm a firm believer that each person who ends up in hell will have a different experience going through it. Yes I do believe Hell is separation from God and Hell is outer darkness, I also believe that hell is definitely *not* going to be the same for everyone. Those who sin more will have to pay more than those who sin less. Also different types of sin will carry more weight with it... a cold blooded murder is going to be judged more severly than a white lie. God is perfectly righteous to reward mankind according to their deeds.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi Glory,

Here are some verses I'll throw out there:

2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.â€

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

I don't know how God is going to do it, but like you, I know he will be perfectly just.

Matthew 12:36
But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

The law of God states "eye for eye tooth for tooth" and it is this law that will judge *unsaved* mankind on the day of God's Judgment. When Christ came to earth he told us not to judge "eye for eye tooth for tooth" because we are not under the law but under grace. But everyone who is not under grace remains under the law.

These were among a list of punishments that were to be implemented by the judges. I see this as a just accounting in a court of law for while a person is here on this earth. There are all kinds of instructions for fair trials, etc., but the principle is the same. We reap what we sow.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, ye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

My firm belief is that when Christ comes he will judge each and every sin that has ever entered into this universe *perfectly* because God is the perfect essence of justice. The scales of justice will be *perfectly* balanced.

Sin is a debt that accumulates and each and every sin must come under judgment and intense scrutiny by the Almighty God and the penalty for each one must be given according to the righteous judgement of God. As it is written "every idle word man shall have to give an account for". I'm a firm believer that each person who ends up in hell will have a different experience going through it. Yes I do believe Hell is separation from God and Hell is outer darkness, I also believe that hell is definitely *not* going to be the same for everyone. Those who sin more will have to pay more than those who sin less. Also different types of sin will carry more weight with it... a cold blooded murder is going to be judged more severly than a white lie. God is perfectly righteous to reward mankind according to their deeds.

Seems right to me, but I can't say for sure.

 

[archangel_300]

These were among a list of punishments that were to be implemented by the judges. I see this as a just accounting in a court of law for while a person is here on this earth. There are all kinds of instructions for fair trials, etc., but the principle is the same. We reap what we sow.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, ye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Fair enough...

We can both trust that God's justice will be perfect, thorough and completely fair when Judgment Day does come. So much so I believe the wrath of man will praise the righteous justice of God. Psalm 76:10 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. All our thoughts sins and deeds will be judged perfectly, even the sins we commit without fully thinking about it or knowing about it, all must be accounted for. But in all this and even though we may not completely know how God's election program works, (whether or not we have free will to choose salvation or not) the gospel call of salvation goes out to everyone that all who respond to the gospel and come to faith in Jesus Christ will be saved. Thanks and praise be to Jesus who provided the way of escape for us by dying on the cross for our sins.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

 

[glorydaz]

Fair enough...

We can both trust that God's justice will be perfect, thorough and completely fair when Judgment Day does come. So much so I believe the wrath of man will praise the righteous justice of God. Psalm 76:10 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. All our thoughts sins and deeds will be judged perfectly, even the sins we commit without fully thinking about it or knowing about it, all must be accounted for. But in all this and even though we may not completely know how God's election program works, (whether or not we have free will to choose salvation or not) the gospel call of salvation goes out to everyone that all who respond to the gospel and come to faith in Jesus Christ will be saved. Thanks and praise be to Jesus who provided the way of escape for us by dying on the cross for our sins.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

"Whether or not....?" I can see we aren't done here yet. :biglaugh

Think about it....love not freely given is not love. Sin not freely chosen is not sin. They are two sides of the same coin. In order to do good we need the power to do evil, and to do evil we need to be able to choose good.

Here's a verse for your consideration...

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[archangel_300]

"Whether or not....?" I can see we aren't done here yet. :biglaugh

Think about it....love not freely given is not love. Sin not freely chosen is not sin. They are two sides of the same coin. In order to do good we need the power to do evil, and to do evil we need to be able to choose good.

Here's a verse for your consideration...

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I think that verse is similar to the way God dealt with Pharaoh.
God told Pharaoh "let my people go" many times and sent many plagues on the Egyptians and Pharaoh did not let Israel go. The scriptures do state that God allowed Pharoah's heart to be hardened so that he would not allow Israel to go. This was done in order that God's power might be magnified. In the Old Testament time and time again God sent prophets to Israel yet they continue with their hard hearts.
I admit though it is an interesting verse I need to think about more.

Did Christ save and choose us because he first loved us or did he save us because we first loved and chose him?

 

[glorydaz]

"Whether or not....?" I can see we aren't done here yet. :biglaugh

Think about it....love not freely given is not love. Sin not freely chosen is not sin. They are two sides of the same coin. In order to do good we need the power to do evil, and to do evil we need to be able to choose good.

Here's a verse for your consideration...
[quote="Matthew 23:37":1ue79bfq] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I think that verse is similar to the way God dealt with Pharaoh.
God told Pharaoh "let my people go" many times and sent many plagues on the Egyptians and Pharaoh did not let Israel go. The scriptures do state that God allowed Pharoah's heart to be hardened so that he would not allow Israel to go. This was done in order that God's power might be magnified. In the Old Testament time and time again God sent prophets to Israel yet they continue with their hard hearts.
I admit though it is an interesting verse I need to think about more.

Did Christ save and choose us because he first loved us or did he save us because we first loved and chose him?[/quote:1ue79bfq]
Ah, He first loved us, as He does all men, of course. Then he drew us, as He does all men, and prepared our hearts to receive the message of the Gospel. After that, we choose to reject or accept His free gift. Whosoever believes will not perish. It's such a small thing He asks of us, isn't it?

Israel is the perfect picture of how God works. I love the way this verse says, "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." That is the state of all mankind, and yet God is ever reaching out to us.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[archangel_300]

Ah, He first loved us, as He does all men, of course. Then he drew us, as He does all men, and prepared our hearts to receive the message of the Gospel. After that, we choose to reject or accept His free gift. Whosoever believes will not perish. It's such a small thing He asks of us, isn't it?

Israel is the perfect picture of how God works. I love the way this verse says, "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." That is the state of all mankind, and yet God is ever reaching out to us.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Do you say then that every man has an equal chance of salvation?
How about those that never hear the gospel of Jesus Christ?

We know from scripture that God elects people.
Do you believe that God elects people based upon the foreknowledge that they would respond to the gospel if given the chance?

 

[glorydaz]

Ah, He first loved us, as He does all men, of course. Then he drew us, as He does all men, and prepared our hearts to receive the message of the Gospel. After that, we choose to reject or accept His free gift. Whosoever believes will not perish. It's such a small thing He asks of us, isn't it?

Israel is the perfect picture of how God works. I love the way this verse says, "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." That is the state of all mankind, and yet God is ever reaching out to us.
[quote="Romans 10:17-21":1cfin8km]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Do you say then that every man has an equal chance of salvation?
How about those that never hear the gospel of Jesus Christ?

We know from scripture that God elects people.
Do you believe that God elects people based upon the foreknowledge that they would respond to the gospel if given the chance?[/quote:1cfin8km]
I don't know the answer to your first question. I trust the Judge of the whole earth to do right. I lean towards the idea that God knows who will receive Him and will see they hear the message. According to the Bible, the gospel was preached to the whole world while the disciples walked the earth. It's never ceased to be preached, and God is more than capable of seeing those who need to hear will hear.

As for your second question...yes, God knows who will accept and who will reject. He formed us in our mother's womb. He knows our hearts and he is not constrained by time or circumstance. I honestly believe it's impossible for human beings to even begin to grasp the enormity of God. We can only believe the entire Word of God...leaving out nothing...reconciling all parts to come up with the whole.

 

[truthlover]

Archangel asks,

"Do you say then that every man has an equal chance of salvation? "

I believe, No, but every man has a better chance than they deserve. Those raised by their parents or community "...the way they should go," as well as those elect, or prayed for by someone interceding with '"the effective, fervent prayer of the righteous," or by someone. blessed by them, watching over their soul as one who must give account, all these have their chance of salvation increased.

 

[jasoncran]

you dont think that lord leads the faithful to pray for the most vile sinners. i have at times.

 

[archangel_300]

I don't know the answer to your first question. I trust the Judge of the whole earth to do right. I lean towards the idea that God knows who will receive Him and will see they hear the message. According to the Bible, the gospel was preached to the whole world while the disciples walked the earth. It's never ceased to be preached, and God is more than capable of seeing those who need to hear will hear.

As for your second question...yes, God knows who will accept and who will reject. He formed us in our mother's womb. He knows our hearts and he is not constrained by time or circumstance. I honestly believe it's impossible for human beings to even begin to grasp the enormity of God. We can only believe the entire Word of God...leaving out nothing...reconciling all parts to come up with the whole.

Then this seems to suggest that Christ saved us because we first decided to choose Him.
Yes the gospel of salvation is open to every man, but not every man has their sins paid for by Christ.
If Christ decided to pay for someone's sin based upon the foreknowledge that they would in their free will accept the gospel call, then the decision rests solely on man first before God reacts.

1 John 4:19 We love Him[a] because He first loved us

 

[archangel_300]

Archangel asks,

"Do you say then that every man has an equal chance of salvation? "

I believe, No, but every man has a better chance than they deserve. Those raised by their parents or community "...the way they should go," as well as those elect, or prayed for by someone interceding with '"the effective, fervent prayer of the righteous," or by someone. blessed by them, watching over their soul as one who must give account, all these have their chance of salvation increased.

I agree with you that no not every man has an equal chance.
But I don't think that every man has a better chance than they deserve.
You and I live a country where there is a church at every corner of the street, but there are plenty of countries where their entire culture revolves around another religion and not the gospel of our Lord.

 

[archangel_300]

you dont think that lord leads the faithful to pray for the most vile sinners. i have at times.

I believe the Lord leads us to pray for the unsaved and perhaps some of them being the most vile sinners.

 

[jasoncran]

archangel i think the the third world countries have the better chance as they have nothing to loose, we do.

when do we come to the lord, when we are broken and have nowhere to go.
the best church i had was in combat.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't know the answer to your first question. I trust the Judge of the whole earth to do right. I lean towards the idea that God knows who will receive Him and will see they hear the message. According to the Bible, the gospel was preached to the whole world while the disciples walked the earth. It's never ceased to be preached, and God is more than capable of seeing those who need to hear will hear.

As for your second question...yes, God knows who will accept and who will reject. He formed us in our mother's womb. He knows our hearts and he is not constrained by time or circumstance. I honestly believe it's impossible for human beings to even begin to grasp the enormity of God. We can only believe the entire Word of God...leaving out nothing...reconciling all parts to come up with the whole.

Then this seems to suggest that Christ saved us because we first decided to choose Him.
Yes the gospel of salvation is open to every man, but not every man has their sins paid for by Christ.
If Christ decided to pay for someone's sin based upon the foreknowledge that they would in their free will accept the gospel call, then the decision rests solely on man first before God reacts.

1 John 4:19 We love Him[a] because He first loved us

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. God loved us before Creation, so, yes, God loved us first. He loves all men and desires all to be saved. Those that come will be saved. Those that don't, won't be.

 

[truthlover]

Archangel_300 comments,

You and I live a country where there is a church at every corner of the street, but there are plenty of countries where their entire culture revolves around another religion and not the gospel of our Lord.

Rightly dividing words like "church" and "gospel," there appear to me to be serious problems with our opportunity for salvation. There are plenty of scriptures, but what is called the church appears to be mostly, maybe entirely, "synagogues of Satan," stumbling blocks. How, for example, can a church be at a "corner of the street?" And the gospel of our Lord, the gospel of the kingdom of Matt 28, is rarely preached here. Other gospels, of inclusion, grace, of various strange heart prayers, there are plenty of those.

Since Jesus died for all, I trust He has a provision for those who respond to His Spirit, poured out on all flesh, with the characteristics of the beatitudes, whatever their religious context.. True religion, anyway, is not "Christianity" per se, but "visiting widows and orphans in their distress, and keeping oneself unstained from the world." Don't need a church or gospel to do that, although you would of course welcome one if it showed up. Either can be very helpful.

 

[archangel_300]

Rightly dividing words like "church" and "gospel," there appear to me to be serious problems with our opportunity for salvation. There are plenty of scriptures, but what is called the church appears to be mostly, maybe entirely, "synagogues of Satan," stumbling blocks. How, for example, can a church be at a "corner of the street?" And the gospel of our Lord, the gospel of the kingdom of Matt 28, is rarely preached here. Other gospels, of inclusion, grace, of various strange heart prayers, there are plenty of those.

Since Jesus died for all, I trust He has a provision for those who respond to His Spirit, poured out on all flesh, with the characteristics of the beatitudes, whatever their religious context.. True religion, anyway, is not "Christianity" per se, but "visiting widows and orphans in their distress, and keeping oneself unstained from the world." Don't need a church or gospel to do that, although you would of course welcome one if it showed up. Either can be very helpful.

I would have to agree with you that although there is an abudance of churches in America, it's very difficult to find a church that preaches the full counsel of God. And yes some are stumbling blocks.

Hmm... but your second paragraph I'm not quite sure I agree with.
The thing is in order for anyone to first become saved they need to be under the hearing of the gospel in some manner. We need to be convicted in our hearts that we need to repent of sin and turn to Christ. We also need saving faith. All this comes from the preaching of the gospel. It's the breath of God that gave Adam physical life and it's also the same breath that gives us spiritual life. That's why it is important that the gospel is preached in all the world because it's the only way man has a chance at eternal life.

Matthew 4:4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’â€