Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[jasoncran]

that should tell you that he aint done with them. he will use them for something in the future.

all this talk of isreal , i need to visit there as i may have relatives there. i have family in france and elsewhere. i lost relatives in the holocaust and i have some that were in ww2 that are still alive.

then why are isnt the church mentioned after revalation 4?

nor does it speak of the saints assisting isreal in its efforts to repent
this need to be another subject.

 

[glorydaz]

You're confusing those who claim to have faith with those who have been born again as new creatures.

There were many who followed along with the Lord until he asked them to forsake all.
The fact that they didn't remain proves they were never His to begin with.

In the same way, many will claim to have worked many signs and wonders in His name, but Jesus will say, I NEVER knew you. Christ would not lie, and say He'd never known them if they were His at one time but had fallen away. Falling away from what one has heard about but never entered into is not even close to "apostasy" as you call it. Religion is not faith...one can abandon his religion, but the believer rests on the faith of Jesus Christ, is filled with the Holy Spirit, is kept by His power and grace. He will lose none the Father has given Him.

hi glory
i know exactly what you are going to say to this lol, i am not referring to those people who were never saved, I am talking about the people who Heb 6 is referring to. they were once enlightened and that means they knew the truth and they partook of the Holy Spirit. You can not fall away from something that you never belonged to in the first place.
Heb6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

That's why Paul says, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE because IF they did, they would be subjecting Christ to open shame. I'm not sure why Paul is so hard for some people to understand. You'll notice he goes on to say...

He is persuaded better things of the believer....because "things that accompany salvation" will "keep us" unto the day of redemption (as per other scriptures that give us assurance of salvation.)

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Paul is only once more encouraging those who may have "heard" but "come short" of entering into the "rest" to make sure their calling and election is sure. Preachers do that...or should, all the time.

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

 

[DarcyLu]

that should tell you that he aint done with them. he will use them for something in the future.

all this talk of isreal , i need to visit there as i may have relatives there. i have family in france and elsewhere. i lost relatives in the holocaust and i have some that were in ww2 that are still alive.

then why are isnt the church mentioned after revalation 4?

nor does it speak of the saints assisting isreal in its efforts to repent
this need to be another subject.

that's cuz the Church is Israel. lol The church is mentioned in Rev 12, too, she is the woman giving birth.

 

[jasoncran]

then how to do you explain the need for christ to save the jews as a whole.
are the christians so decimated that they are only in isreal?

what about the the two witness?

or why the temple is built and the anti-christ who makes peace with isreal set ups the abonomation of desolation.

is the chruch now worshipping via temple sacrifices in the tribualtion?

 

[jasoncran]

that should tell you that he aint done with them. he will use them for something in the future.

all this talk of isreal , i need to visit there as i may have relatives there. i have family in france and elsewhere. i lost relatives in the holocaust and i have some that were in ww2 that are still alive.

then why are isnt the church mentioned after revalation 4?

nor does it speak of the saints assisting isreal in its efforts to repent
this need to be another subject.

that's cuz the Church is Israel. lol The church is mentioned in Rev 12, too, she is the woman giving birth.

that is the seed of christ and that woman is mary. she gave birth to the messiah and he raised us up. she is taken away. those arent the raptured saints but rather the ones that do repent at the hearing of the gospel.

 

[jasoncran]

i am wrong that's the birth of christ. note the man child and he is too rule with all the nations and iron rod and the wilderness is where she is sent.

 

[DarcyLu]

that should tell you that he aint done with them. he will use them for something in the future.

all this talk of isreal , i need to visit there as i may have relatives there. i have family in france and elsewhere. i lost relatives in the holocaust and i have some that were in ww2 that are still alive.

then why are isnt the church mentioned after revalation 4?

nor does it speak of the saints assisting isreal in its efforts to repent
this need to be another subject.

that's cuz the Church is Israel. lol The church is mentioned in Rev 12, too, she is the woman giving birth.

that is the seed of christ and that woman is mary. she gave birth to the messiah and he raised us up. she is taken away. those arent the raptured saints but rather the ones that do repent at the hearing of the gospel.

that's what always thought, too, but in Rev 1:19 John is told to write down on a scroll what will take place after as in the future, so the woman in Rev 12 can not be Mary, it is the church.

 

[glorydaz]

i do believe we can lose our salvation.

Really? Do you believe YOU can lose your salvation or just other people?

It does sadden me when I hear someone doesn'tt have assurance of their own salvation.

Doesn't the Spirit within bear witness with yours? Hasn't God filled your heart with a desire to love and serve Him? Don't you abhor sin? Hasn't God taken away your heart of stone and given you a heart of flesh? Doesn't Jesus intercede on your behalf? Hasn't He always been faithful to answer your prayers and meet all your needs. Doesn't He chasten you when you go out of the way? Hasn't He promised to never leave nor forsake you? Without assurance, where is faith? Without trust in God's power to keep His own, where is faith?

 

[glorydaz]

that's what always thought, too, but in Rev 1:19 John is told to write down on a scroll what will take place after as in the future, so the woman in Rev 12 can not be Mary, it is the church.

John is told ...

Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[DarcyLu]

i do believe we can lose our salvation.

Really? Do you believe YOU can lose your salvation or just other people?

It does sadden me when I hear someone doesn'tt have assurance of their own salvation.

Doesn't the Spirit within bear witness with yours? Hasn't God filled your heart with a desire to love and serve Him? Don't you abhor sin? Hasn't God taken away your heart of stone and given you a heart of flesh? Doesn't Jesus intercede on your behalf? Hasn't He always been faithful to answer your prayers and meet all your needs. Doesn't He chasten you when you go out of the way? Hasn't He promised to never leave nor forsake you? Without assurance, where is faith? Without trust in God's power to keep His own, where is faith?

yes, i pray that God will help me to abide in Christ and to conform to His image, yes, i am aware that i am not exempt, there is nothing special about me at all. lol i, too, could lose my salvation and that is why i pray. i am not better than anyone.
the Spirit does bear witness to me, He convicts me, teaches me, comforts me, gives me joy and peace. i pray my heart is the very heart of Jesus and that the flesh heart would die and Jesus would be alive and well in me. God will never forsake me, but i could fall away and that is why Jesus and Paul spent so much time, teaching us and speaking to us that we would stay the course, not be of this world, they spent alot of time warning us, directing us, guiding us because God gave us free will and we can chose to fall away. i can tell you, i would never want to be an apostate.

 

[archangel_300]

that's what always thought, too, but in Rev 1:19 John is told to write down on a scroll what will take place after as in the future, so the woman in Rev 12 can not be Mary, it is the church.

Even though this is off topic...
I agree with Darcy.
Revelation 12 is a picture of the church.
Notice the similarities between the woman and Israel...
Israel fled into the wilderness after the Passover for 40 years, they are fed with manna until they reach the "promised land".
The woman goes into the wilderness to be "nourished" for a set period of time until the end when Christ returns.

But I'm kind of confused why you say the "Church is Israel". I haven't gone back to read your previous posts but I assume you mean the church are the body of believers... the true spiritual Israel of God?

 

[DarcyLu]

that's what always thought, too, but in Rev 1:19 John is told to write down on a scroll what will take place after as in the future, so the woman in Rev 12 can not be Mary, it is the church.

Even though this is off topic...
I agree with Darcy.
Revelation 12 is a picture of the church.
Notice the similarities between the woman and Israel...
Israel fled into the wilderness after the Passover for 40 years, they are fed with manna until they reach the "promised land".
The woman goes into the wilderness to be "nourished" for a set period of time until the end when Christ returns.

But I'm kind of confused why you say the "Church is Israel". I haven't gone back to read your previous posts but I assume you mean the church are the body of believers... the true spiritual Israel of God?

yes, i do mean the body of believers, spiritual israel.

 

[Cornelius]

Yes a bit off topic, but an important point. Here is the "Israel of God" mentioned which is a New Testament name for the church. It simply means everybody who is part of the Olive Tree (natural believing Jews and grafted in believing Gentiles) : Gal 6:16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Mysteryman]

no, the same, 12,000 from each tribe.
the 24 elders are also from isreal. 2 elders from each tribe.

look at the promises of to isreal about in the last days that all men shall sacrifice in jerusalem in the last days. i think that means to worship not neccesary the ot type that if the nations dont they will be cursed as in drought. i believe that to happen in the millenium not in the tribulation.

odd all male and from each tribe listed, how is that the church?
look at what they do. witness and tell all of isreal that the lord is real. you believe that the chruch will go through the trib then

lol, yes you are right completely forgot it does mention the tribes and God knows who they are from each tribe, even if you all don't.

i do believe the Church will go through tribulation.

i do believe we can lose our salvation.

It is sad to see christians even consider that they can loose their salvation. And it is just as sad, to hear christians who even consider that they will go through the tribulation of God.

The tribulation of God is the wrath of God. And the church is not appointed to wrath - I Thess. 1:10

Where has the faith of the church fallen ? Or should I say - fallen away !

 

[faithtransforms]

I'm well aware I'm in the minority. Galileo was in the minority too. So what? That is just MY experience. I don't know any OSASers that strive toward holiness, period. None. Believe me, I would be pleasantly surprised to find some (and it appears I have on this board, but I'd like to meet one in person).

Perhaps you are judging them on a false balance. Perhaps you believe everyone should walk according to your standard of holiness. Many believers readily admit they sin, others are under some delusion that they rarely, if ever, sin. Look at the Pharisees. They saw themselves as holy and righteous, and looked down on everyone else...even going so far as to stone the woman caught in adultery. What they failed to see was their own sin, and how the Lord saw it but they couldn't. I see you use the word "strive"...that tells me a great deal. The harder we try to be holy the farther away from holy we become because we do so by our own efforts. We're to "be" holy because He is holy. That can only come about as we allow the love of God in us to be manifest in our lives.

Don't pick on me for saying "strive", maybe it was a bad choice of words. Byt my post clearly says that you can only overcome sin through the grace God supplies each day, not through your own strength. Btw, I'm about the least judgmental person you could ever want to meet. I don't judge people for not trying to be (with God's grace) holy. It just bothers me because it is a bad witness to the world if we basically live just like them. One of the definitions of holiness is "set apart", the world should be able to see that we are different. If they can't, something's wrong. We are not to look down on the world, but they should notice that there is something different about us. I am under no illusion that I rarely if ever sin. I actually struggle with disobedience quite a bit sometimes, but I KNOW the command for holiness and that the Word would not tell us to do something we are incapable of. So subsequently I try to keep it, with God's grace.

 

[faithtransforms]

From Glorydaz

That's why Paul says, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE because IF they did, they would be subjecting Christ to open shame. I'm not sure why Paul is so hard for some people to understand. You'll notice he goes on to say...

He is persuaded better things of the believer....because "things that accompany salvation" will "keep us" unto the day of redemption (as per other scriptures that give us assurance of salvation.)

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Paul is only once more encouraging those who may have "heard" but "come short" of entering into the "rest" to make sure their calling and election is sure. Preachers do that...or should, all the time.

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Paul said he was persuaded better things of them. That is far from saying it is impossible. He is saying though you could lose your salvation, we believe in you and that you will overcome.

 

[Mysteryman]

that's what always thought, too, but in Rev 1:19 John is told to write down on a scroll what will take place after as in the future, so the woman in Rev 12 can not be Mary, it is the church.

Even though this is off topic...
I agree with Darcy.
Revelation 12 is a picture of the church.
Notice the similarities between the woman and Israel...
Israel fled into the wilderness after the Passover for 40 years, they are fed with manna until they reach the "promised land".
The woman goes into the wilderness to be "nourished" for a set period of time until the end when Christ returns.

But I'm kind of confused why you say the "Church is Israel". I haven't gone back to read your previous posts but I assume you mean the church are the body of believers... the true spiritual Israel of God?

One should be very careful when reading Revelation chapter 12.

In verse one it tells us that she was in heaven. Also,it tells us in verse 2 that she was about to give birth to just one child, not children.

Then when you read down to verse 4, this verse is now talking about being on the earth, and not in heaven . Now the woman on earth is about to give birth also to a child. And in verse 5 it tells us that she brought forth a male child. Verse 5 is talking about Jesus Christ. But so is verse one. Verse one is talking about the spiritual, which is Christ, and verse 5 is talking about the flesh , born of a woman, who was Mary, and this is Jesus. Jesus born of woman, who was taken from the earth and made. Christ is the spiritual, born of a spiritual woman - verse one.

We also have two women , and only one was given two wings to fly into the wilderness. One of course is the spiritual of heaven , and the other is spiritual, of the earthly. In verses 13 and 14 we notice that this woman "is" the spirit of the earth itself. The man child here is Adam. Before the flood, we read in verses 15 and 16 that the serpent flooded the earth. And in verse 16 we read that the earth helped this woman. Here in verse 16 we also notice that the earth is called a "she".

The spiritual woman is in verse 6. Verse 6 is talking about the same woman, that is in verse one.

So the question is, who is this spiritual woman in heaven, who is clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and she is wearing a crown of twelve stars ? And where is the wilderness that is spoken about in verse 6 and as well as in verse 14.

In order to understand all of this, everything needs to be put in proper sequence.

With God, anything without spirit is dead. This is why God gave man what is called the spirit of man. Animals have a spirit as well, but their spirit is from below, while mankinds spirit, the spirit of man is from above.

That said, we still need to understand who this spiritual woman is that is spoken about in verse one.

This spiritual woman in verse one is the female side of God. She is the queen of heaven. She is also the Jerusalem that is above and is the mother of us all and is barren. So her being with child is an idiom. Which means, that she herself is not giving birth. But her handmaiden is. Such as was the case with Sari (Sarah) and her handmaiden Hagar who was her bondslave.

The spiritual woman of the earth is the bondwoman, or handmaiden of the spiritual woman of heaven. The earth gave birth to the first man Adam. Then Mary who was of the earth, which means she was a handmaiden, gave birth to Christ Jesus , the Son of God.

So there are two wildernesses. One of heaven, and one of the earth. Two spiritual women, one of heaven, and the hanmaiden of the earth. Both spiritual !

Now , if you are not totally confused , remember that God is our Father, and that he had to prepare a way for his Son to come down into the earth. So he needed a handmaiden , such as Mary, to bring forth his Son into the world. Likewise this earth has no life in it, unless it is spiritual. How else does seed grown and become a mulitiplier ? The Jerusalem below is in bondage, while the Jerusalem above is free and the mother of us all, yet barren. The Jerusalem below is the handmaiden (spiritually speaking). The children of this earth , which are in bondage . God sent his only begotten Son to set us free from the bondage of this earth. He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men - Eph. 4:8.

Bless

 

[faithtransforms]

i do believe we can lose our salvation.

Really? Do you believe YOU can lose your salvation or just other people?

It does sadden me when I hear someone doesn'tt have assurance of their own salvation.

Doesn't the Spirit within bear witness with yours? Hasn't God filled your heart with a desire to love and serve Him? Don't you abhor sin? Hasn't God taken away your heart of stone and given you a heart of flesh? Doesn't Jesus intercede on your behalf? Hasn't He always been faithful to answer your prayers and meet all your needs. Doesn't He chasten you when you go out of the way? Hasn't He promised to never leave nor forsake you? Without assurance, where is faith? Without trust in God's power to keep His own, where is faith?

I believe salvation can be lost, yet I have every assurance. I am assured that God will not tempt me more than i am able to bear, I am assured that Jesus is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him. I am assured that as long as I do not reject Christ and I am obedient to His voice (with the obvious caveat that we will fall sometimes) that I will spend eternity with Jesus in heaven. I believe you can lose your salvation, but I don't think it's easy to do. You basically have to reject Christ or go off into willfull sin and never repent before you die. That's it. God is full of grace and mercy.

But:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye , shall he be thought worthy , who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said , Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense , saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

As you can see, these verses are talking about someone who has already been sanctified by the blood of Christ

 

[DarcyLu]

that's what always thought, too, but in Rev 1:19 John is told to write down on a scroll what will take place after as in the future, so the woman in Rev 12 can not be Mary, it is the church.

Even though this is off topic...
I agree with Darcy.
Revelation 12 is a picture of the church.
Notice the similarities between the woman and Israel...
Israel fled into the wilderness after the Passover for 40 years, they are fed with manna until they reach the "promised land".
The woman goes into the wilderness to be "nourished" for a set period of time until the end when Christ returns.

But I'm kind of confused why you say the "Church is Israel". I haven't gone back to read your previous posts but I assume you mean the church are the body of believers... the true spiritual Israel of God?

One should be very careful when reading Revelation chapter 12.

In verse one it tells us that she was in heaven. Also,it tells us in verse 2 that she was about to give birth to just one child, not children.

Then when you read down to verse 4, this verse is now talking about being on the earth, and not in heaven . Now the woman on earth is about to give birth also to a child. And in verse 5 it tells us that she brought forth a male child. Verse 5 is talking about Jesus Christ. But so is verse one. Verse one is talking about the spiritual, which is Christ, and verse 5 is talking about the flesh , born of a woman, who was Mary, and this is Jesus. Jesus born of woman, who was taken from the earth and made. Christ is the spiritual, born of a spiritual woman - verse one.

We also have two women , and only one was given two wings to fly into the wilderness. One of course is the spiritual of heaven , and the other is spiritual, of the earthly. In verses 13 and 14 we notice that this woman "is" the spirit of the earth itself. The man child here is Adam. Before the flood, we read in verses 15 and 16 that the serpent flooded the earth. And in verse 16 we read that the earth helped this woman. Here in verse 16 we also notice that the earth is called a "she".

The spiritual woman is in verse 6. Verse 6 is talking about the same woman, that is in verse one.

So the question is, who is this spiritual woman in heaven, who is clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and she is wearing a crown of twelve stars ? And where is the wilderness that is spoken about in verse 6 and as well as in verse 14.

In order to understand all of this, everything needs to be put in proper sequence.

With God, anything without spirit is dead. This is why God gave man what is called the spirit of man. Animals have a spirit as well, but their spirit is from below, while mankinds spirit, the spirit of man is from above.

That said, we still need to understand who this spiritual woman is that is spoken about in verse one.

This spiritual woman in verse one is the female side of God. She is the queen of heaven. She is also the Jerusalem that is above and is the mother of us all and is barren. So her being with child is an idiom. Which means, that she herself is not giving birth. But her handmaiden is. Such as was the case with Sari (Sarah) and her handmaiden Hagar who was her bondslave.

The spiritual woman of the earth is the bondwoman, or handmaiden of the spiritual woman of heaven. The earth gave birth to the first man Adam. Then Mary who was of the earth, which means she was a handmaiden, gave birth to Christ Jesus , the Son of God.

So there are two wildernesses. One of heaven, and one of the earth. Two spiritual women, one of heaven, and the hanmaiden of the earth. Both spiritual !

Now , if you are not totally confused , remember that God is our Father, and that he had to prepare a way for his Son to come down into the earth. So he needed a handmaiden , such as Mary, to bring forth his Son into the world. Likewise this earth has no life in it, unless it is spiritual. How else does seed grown and become a mulitiplier ? The Jerusalem below is in bondage, while the Jerusalem above is free and the mother of us all, yet barren. The Jerusalem below is the handmaiden (spiritually speaking). The children of this earth , which are in bondage . God sent his only begotten Son to set us free from the bondage of this earth. He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men - Eph. 4:8.

Bless

:crazy
Rev 12 is really not so complicated, mm.......and good to see you are still here!

 

[archangel_300]

One should be very careful when reading Revelation chapter 12.

In verse one it tells us that she was in heaven. Also,it tells us in verse 2 that she was about to give birth to just one child, not children.

Then when you read down to verse 4, this verse is now talking about being on the earth, and not in heaven . Now the woman on earth is about to give birth also to a child. And in verse 5 it tells us that she brought forth a male child. Verse 5 is talking about Jesus Christ. But so is verse one. Verse one is talking about the spiritual, which is Christ, and verse 5 is talking about the flesh , born of a woman, who was Mary, and this is Jesus. Jesus born of woman, who was taken from the earth and made. Christ is the spiritual, born of a spiritual woman - verse one.

We also have two women , and only one was given two wings to fly into the wilderness. One of course is the spiritual of heaven , and the other is spiritual, of the earthly. In verses 13 and 14 we notice that this woman "is" the spirit of the earth itself. The man child here is Adam. Before the flood, we read in verses 15 and 16 that the serpent flooded the earth. And in verse 16 we read that the earth helped this woman. Here in verse 16 we also notice that the earth is called a "she".

The spiritual woman is in verse 6. Verse 6 is talking about the same woman, that is in verse one.

So the question is, who is this spiritual woman in heaven, who is clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and she is wearing a crown of twelve stars ? And where is the wilderness that is spoken about in verse 6 and as well as in verse 14.

In order to understand all of this, everything needs to be put in proper sequence.

With God, anything without spirit is dead. This is why God gave man what is called the spirit of man. Animals have a spirit as well, but their spirit is from below, while mankinds spirit, the spirit of man is from above.

That said, we still need to understand who this spiritual woman is that is spoken about in verse one.

This spiritual woman in verse one is the female side of God. She is the queen of heaven. She is also the Jerusalem that is above and is the mother of us all and is barren. So her being with child is an idiom. Which means, that she herself is not giving birth. But her handmaiden is. Such as was the case with Sari (Sarah) and her handmaiden Hagar who was her bondslave.

The spiritual woman of the earth is the bondwoman, or handmaiden of the spiritual woman of heaven. The earth gave birth to the first man Adam. Then Mary who was of the earth, which means she was a handmaiden, gave birth to Christ Jesus , the Son of God.

So there are two wildernesses. One of heaven, and one of the earth. Two spiritual women, one of heaven, and the hanmaiden of the earth. Both spiritual !

Now , if you are not totally confused , remember that God is our Father, and that he had to prepare a way for his Son to come down into the earth. So he needed a handmaiden , such as Mary, to bring forth his Son into the world. Likewise this earth has no life in it, unless it is spiritual. How else does seed grown and become a mulitiplier ? The Jerusalem below is in bondage, while the Jerusalem above is free and the mother of us all, yet barren. The Jerusalem below is the handmaiden (spiritually speaking). The children of this earth , which are in bondage . God sent his only begotten Son to set us free from the bondage of this earth. He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men - Eph. 4:8.

Bless

Mysteryman... I'm seeing what francisdesales is seeing... and as he would put it...

It amazes me,

no, strike that,

...it is par for the course with you - how you MISINTERPRET Sacred Writ. Over and over again