Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[glorydaz]

Oh, but Jesus was! one of the promises of God. Hebrews 6, and Galtians 5, are both speaking of Christ. In general the statement "falling away" is not specific, and can apply to disbelief in the rapture, or Christ. But in general it is used in the scripture, of falling away from the faith in Jesus.

exactly and if a person does not have faith in Jesus, then that person is no longer saved because only when we have faith in Christ, abide in Christ, that person is an apostate, they have left the faith and are no longer saved. they once belonged and now they don't.

You're confusing those who claim to have faith with those who have been born again as new creatures.

There were many who followed along with the Lord until he asked them to forsake all.
The fact that they didn't remain proves they were never His to begin with.

In the same way, many will claim to have worked many signs and wonders in His name, but Jesus will say, I NEVER knew you. Christ would not lie, and say He'd never known them if they were His at one time but had fallen away. Falling away from what one has heard about but never entered into is not even close to "apostasy" as you call it. Religion is not faith...one can abandon his religion, but the believer rests on the faith of Jesus Christ, is filled with the Holy Spirit, is kept by His power and grace. He will lose none the Father has given Him.

 

[faithtransforms]

lol, i aint gentile.

Well than you better be greatful you got grafted back in, lol!

 

[archangel_300]

I've read Romans 11, but in the passage I quoted, he is saying WE, the GENTILES, may NOT BE SPARED or may be CUT OFF if we don't continue in his goodness.

We may be cut off the same way Israel was. They persisted in their unbelief and hardness of heart. Cut off from the gospel and all the blessings that it brings. Notice in the first paragraph there is a remnant within Israel "according to the election of God's grace". God has and always keep those whom he forknew. These verses don't say they lost their salvation.

 

[faithtransforms]

(Glorydaz)....I say no. The early church most definately did believe in the eternal security of the believer.

Then why would you? Do WE have more revelation than them?!?!

 

[jasoncran]

lol, i aint gentile.

Well than you better be greatful you got grafted back in, lol!

i'm not any better or worse then you.

actually holiness is well understood by many oasers. alot

we arent perfect. when they say that it because when you compare us to christ we are that crooked and perverse. we will never be at the same level of purity as he is. we cant. does that mean we shouldnt strive to be holy, certainly not.

do you think that upon your death that you will have attained all the perfect attributes of christ shown in the flesh and that when you die you wont have any sin or weaknesses.
no one is going to be perfect in death. rather death perfects them.

see 1 cor 15 on that.

no flesh can inherit the kingdom of god. we must put on immortality and how is that done. christ does it for us when we are raised up.

 

[jasoncran]

isreal failed in its part of the covenant yet did the Lord forsake them all? why does those that believe that he didnt forsake his word with Isreal seem to think that he will with us?

 

[faithtransforms]

lol, i aint gentile.

Well than you better be greatful you got grafted back in, lol!

i'm not any better or worse then you.

actually holiness is well understood by many oasers. alot

we arent perfect. when they say that it because when you compare us to christ we are that crooked and perverse. we will never be at the same level of purity as he is. we cant. does that mean we shouldnt strive to be holy, certainly not.

do you think that upon your death that you will have attained all the perfect attributes of christ shown in the flesh and that when you die you wont have any sin or weaknesses.
no one is going to be perfect in death. rather death perfects them.

see 1 cor 15 on that.

no flesh can inherit the kingdom of god. we must put on immortality and how is that done. christ does it for us when we are raised up.

There is no sin or weakness in heaven. Of course we will be perfect. We will not be exalted, we will never be God, but we will most certainly be without sin! That is what the redemption of the body is all about because sin is in the FLESH.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, and I feel sorry for those non OSASers. They are living under constant condemnation as I used to, until God revealed the truth to me. He is FAITHFUL and JUST to FORGIVE us. His grace and power are what help us overcome. We must simply receive it. If I run into one of those people, I will be happy to minister the truth to them. He is "able to keep us from falling." We must depend on Him daily for this. And condemnation is NEVER from God, ever. God convicts, satan condemns.

Us enlightened non-OSASers know that God will supply the grace for all that He requires of us and that He is quick to forgive.

On another vein, back to holiness. All the OSASers I know have that "I'm just a sinner saved by grace" mentality and believe holiness in this life is impossible. THAT is one of my main problems with OSAS. I am by NO MEANS saying we will be perfect, but we are clearly commanded to live holy, and God will give us the grace to do so if we ask.

Faith, I'm confused by your post. On the one hand, you recognize Jesus is able to keep us from falling. Then, on the other you see those who say being holy is impossible are somehow in error. Maybe I'm just not sure where you stand on this issue. What I've found is people are more than able to say they, themselves, will never fall away. They know their own hearts, but they can easily believe others can fall away. If we judge the promises of God on what we see with our eyes, we will always be confused. The promises of God stand. What are those promises? That Jesus will lose none the Father has given Him. That we're born again new creatures unto eternal life. If we see someone who falls away for a time, we can never assume they've lost their salvation. What they have lost, if they have truly been born again, is fellowship with God which results in a lack of fruit. Salvation can not be gained and then lost. It's gained or it isn't.

 

[faithtransforms]

really holiness, odd,

why do you think i mentioned adrian rogers so much on that, he emphasis holiness. and he lived it

did you know that he was against liberal preaching( ie that the literal creation story wasnt true but an allegory) and that he was against that as it where do your stop.

he was also for the boycotting of disney for its promotion of homosexuality in the florida themepark.
he is also agianst watching ungodly entertainment and also secular entertainment that gloryifed sin

many are on both sides of the oasas debates are holy.
thats not fair to accuse us of lowering the standard.

the puritans believed in eternal security did they not.

look at how they dealt with the witches. while i dont agree with the torture of the witches at salem. they took sin seriously.

I'm not saying there aren't ANY OSASers who believe in holiness. I am just saying I'VE NEVER MET one, well, at least not in person anyway.

 

[jasoncran]

but you aint dead yet and till you are then you aint perfected in the here and now. its a process.

when you die you will be perfected that is what i meant.

unless you think that upon salvation that we never sin again,or that we are more saved due to holiness.

holiness is the outward shining of what is inside.if it never occurs then maybe salvation wasnt there in the first place.

 

[DarcyLu]

You're confusing those who claim to have faith with those who have been born again as new creatures.

There were many who followed along with the Lord until he asked them to forsake all.
The fact that they didn't remain proves they were never His to begin with.

In the same way, many will claim to have worked many signs and wonders in His name, but Jesus will say, I NEVER knew you. Christ would not lie, and say He'd never known them if they were His at one time but had fallen away. Falling away from what one has heard about but never entered into is not even close to "apostasy" as you call it. Religion is not faith...one can abandon his religion, but the believer rests on the faith of Jesus Christ, is filled with the Holy Spirit, is kept by His power and grace. He will lose none the Father has given Him.

hi glory
i know exactly what you are going to say to this lol, i am not referring to those people who were never saved, I am talking about the people who Heb 6 is referring to. they were once enlightened and that means they knew the truth and they partook of the Holy Spirit. You can not fall away from something that you never belonged to in the first place.
Heb6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

[jasoncran]

really holiness, odd,

why do you think i mentioned adrian rogers so much on that, he emphasis holiness. and he lived it

did you know that he was against liberal preaching( ie that the literal creation story wasnt true but an allegory) and that he was against that as it where do your stop.

he was also for the boycotting of disney for its promotion of homosexuality in the florida themepark.
he is also agianst watching ungodly entertainment and also secular entertainment that gloryifed sin

many are on both sides of the oasas debates are holy.
thats not fair to accuse us of lowering the standard.

the puritans believed in eternal security did they not.

look at how they dealt with the witches. while i dont agree with the torture of the witches at salem. they took sin seriously.

I'm not saying there aren't ANY OSASers who believe in holiness. I am just saying I'VE NEVER MET one, well, at least not in person anyway.

you imply much and assume much when you said that. i have been to many other churches . that how i know that isnt true,btw, you are in the minority.

 

[DarcyLu]

isreal failed in its part of the covenant yet did the Lord forsake them all? why does those that believe that he didnt forsake his word with Isreal seem to think that he will with us?

God always keeps a remnant for Himself, and many natural Israelites will be lost. it's not that He forsakes us, it's WE forsake Him. it's us not Him.

 

[faithtransforms]

Yes, and I feel sorry for those non OSASers. They are living under constant condemnation as I used to, until God revealed the truth to me. He is FAITHFUL and JUST to FORGIVE us. His grace and power are what help us overcome. We must simply receive it. If I run into one of those people, I will be happy to minister the truth to them. He is "able to keep us from falling." We must depend on Him daily for this. And condemnation is NEVER from God, ever. God convicts, satan condemns.

Us enlightened non-OSASers know that God will supply the grace for all that He requires of us and that He is quick to forgive.

On another vein, back to holiness. All the OSASers I know have that "I'm just a sinner saved by grace" mentality and believe holiness in this life is impossible. THAT is one of my main problems with OSAS. I am by NO MEANS saying we will be perfect, but we are clearly commanded to live holy, and God will give us the grace to do so if we ask.

Faith, I'm confused by your post. On the one hand, you recognize Jesus is able to keep us from falling. Then, on the other you see those who say being holy is impossible are somehow in error. Maybe I'm just not sure where you stand on this issue. What I've found is people are more than able to say they, themselves, will never fall away. They know their own hearts, but they can easily believe others can fall away. If we judge the promises of God on what we see with our eyes, we will always be confused. The promises of God stand. What are those promises? That Jesus will lose none the Father has given Him. That we're born again new creatures unto eternal life. If we see someone who falls away for a time, we can never assume they've lost their salvation. What they have lost, if they have truly been born again, is fellowship with God which results in a lack of fruit. Salvation can not be gained and then lost. It's gained or it isn't.

Yes, Jesus IS able to keep us from falling. But we must receive that grace daily to overcome the sin that could lead to the hardening of the heart and the eventual loss of salvation. I don't understand how that relates to me saying that those who don't believe it is possible to be holy are in error?

Again, I DO NOT BELIEVE WE CAN BE PERFECT, but holiness is commanded of us, and most Christians I know ignore it. And in my experience, mostly OSASers.

 

[jasoncran]

many chruch demonations accept eternal security

southern baptists
assembly of god(kenneth copeland is one of these)
church of god(cleveland tn)
christian and missionary alliance(my denomation)
calvary chapels
these all accept that doctrine

darcy lu read how the covenant was approved and its tradition and who passed through the heffier, abraham didnt pass through. god did it. not him.

odd aint it.he swore by himself. and abraham didnt sware on his part to keep his part.

interesting aint it, btw theres no remnant of isreal that is following the whole law.
no jew that is a real jew(orthodox in faith) practice the sacrifice. most are in the diaspora

 

[faithtransforms]

really holiness, odd,

why do you think i mentioned adrian rogers so much on that, he emphasis holiness. and he lived it

did you know that he was against liberal preaching( ie that the literal creation story wasnt true but an allegory) and that he was against that as it where do your stop.

he was also for the boycotting of disney for its promotion of homosexuality in the florida themepark.
he is also agianst watching ungodly entertainment and also secular entertainment that gloryifed sin

many are on both sides of the oasas debates are holy.
thats not fair to accuse us of lowering the standard.

the puritans believed in eternal security did they not.

look at how they dealt with the witches. while i dont agree with the torture of the witches at salem. they took sin seriously.

I'm not saying there aren't ANY OSASers who believe in holiness. I am just saying I'VE NEVER MET one, well, at least not in person anyway.

you imply much and assume much when you said that. i have been to many other churches . that how i know that isnt true,btw, you are in the minority.

I'm well aware I'm in the minority. Galileo was in the minority too. So what? That is just MY experience. I don't know any OSASers that strive toward holiness, period. None. Believe me, I would be pleasantly surprised to find some (and it appears I have on this board, but I'd like to meet one in person).

 

[glorydaz]

Faith, this passage of scripture is not talking about salvation. It's talking about how Israel rejected God and thus they were broken off, they remain in unbelief while the blessings of salvation have come to the Gentiles. The natural branches are Israel while the Gentiles were grafted in. To this day Israel as a nation remains blinded that Jesus is the Messiah and God is warning us as Gentiles to continue in his goodness otherwise God could easily graft Israel back in and we could fall by the wayside. Imagine the time that would be if there is a spiritual revival in Israel while the rest of the world falls into spiritual blindness. Please re-read all of Romans 11.

I've read Romans 11, but in the passage I quoted, he is saying WE, the GENTILES, may NOT BE SPARED or may be CUT OFF if we don't continue in his goodness.

This is not talking about individual salvation, but national blessing.

 

[jasoncran]

isreal failed in its part of the covenant yet did the Lord forsake them all? why does those that believe that he didnt forsake his word with Isreal seem to think that he will with us?

God always keeps a remnant for Himself, and many natural Israelites will be lost. it's not that He forsakes us, it's WE forsake Him. it's us not Him.

no hebrew can name his tribe, i am hebrew and i cant. many of my friends that are hebrew cant name their tribe at all.i am a belorussian jew ancestry. depending if i want to use my grandfathers (my last name, or my grandma lineage, Kline maidan name)

where is this remnant?

 

[DarcyLu]

many chruch demonations accept eternal security

southern baptists
assembly of god(kenneth copeland is one of these)
church of god(cleveland tn)
christian and missionary alliance(my denomation)
calvary chapels
these all accept that doctrine

darcy lu read how the covenant was approved and its tradition and who passed through the heffier, abraham didnt pass through. god did it. not him.

odd aint it.he swore by himself. and abraham didnt sware on his part to keep his part.

interesting aint it, btw theres no remnant of isreal that is following the whole law.
no jew that is a real jew(orthodox in faith) practice the sacrifice. most are in the diaspora

i agree with the jewish law part, i was talking about keeping natural Israelites who are Christians now. for instance - someone such as yourself. lol

yes, God is the one who had to swear by Himself, yet that does not mean that a person can't make the choice to fall away. how about all the "if" statements? do we just ignore them all? take that word out all together?

 

[DarcyLu]

isreal failed in its part of the covenant yet did the Lord forsake them all? why does those that believe that he didnt forsake his word with Isreal seem to think that he will with us?

God always keeps a remnant for Himself, and many natural Israelites will be lost. it's not that He forsakes us, it's WE forsake Him. it's us not Him.

no hebrew can name his tribe, i am hebrew and i cant. many of my friends that are hebrew cant name their tribe at all.i am a belorussian jew ancestry. depending if i want to use my grandfathers (my last name, or my grandma lineage, Kline maidan name)

where is this remnant?

yes, but God knows which tribe, you don't need to know. the remnant is all over the world, He always keeps a remnant - yet, now the Church is Israel.