Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[glorydaz]

It is sad to see christians even consider that they can loose their salvation. And it is just as sad, to hear christians who even consider that they will go through the tribulation of God.

The tribulation of God is the wrath of God. And the church is not appointed to wrath - I Thess. 1:10

Where has the faith of the church fallen ? Or should I say - fallen away !

The tribulation is not the wrath of God. It isn't a question of one's faith in the matter, it's a question of misinterpretation of the Word of God. One must be able to discern the difference between tribulation, which God not only allows in our lives but uses for our refining, and God's wrath that falls upon his enemies. We are protected from the wrath of God, but we are promised great tribulations. It's your misreading of Revelations that has brought you to this state of error.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm well aware I'm in the minority. Galileo was in the minority too. So what? That is just MY experience. I don't know any OSASers that strive toward holiness, period. None. Believe me, I would be pleasantly surprised to find some (and it appears I have on this board, but I'd like to meet one in person).

Perhaps you are judging them on a false balance. Perhaps you believe everyone should walk according to your standard of holiness. Many believers readily admit they sin, others are under some delusion that they rarely, if ever, sin. Look at the Pharisees. They saw themselves as holy and righteous, and looked down on everyone else...even going so far as to stone the woman caught in adultery. What they failed to see was their own sin, and how the Lord saw it but they couldn't. I see you use the word "strive"...that tells me a great deal. The harder we try to be holy the farther away from holy we become because we do so by our own efforts. We're to "be" holy because He is holy. That can only come about as we allow the love of God in us to be manifest in our lives.

Don't pick on me for saying "strive", maybe it was a bad choice of words. Byt my post clearly says that you can only overcome sin through the grace God supplies each day, not through your own strength. Btw, I'm about the least judgmental person you could ever want to meet. I don't judge people for not trying to be (with God's grace) holy. It just bothers me because it is a bad witness to the world if we basically live just like them. One of the definitions of holiness is "set apart", the world should be able to see that we are different. If they can't, something's wrong. We are not to look down on the world, but they should notice that there is something different about us. I am under no illusion that I rarely if ever sin. I actually struggle with disobedience quite a bit sometimes, but I KNOW the command for holiness and that the Word would not tell us to do something we are incapable of. So subsequently I try to keep it, with God's grace.

Then you should know that we will "know them by their fruit". Many people profess to be Christians, and many even "strive" to be good people, but that does not mean they have been born of the Spirit. Therefore, we can't say those who produce no fruit...which is a far cry from works of the flesh, are believers. If the professing Christians you know, personally, believe they are saved and can continue in sin, you can be sure they are only fooling themselves.

 

[glorydaz]

From Glorydaz

That's why Paul says, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE because IF they did, they would be subjecting Christ to open shame. I'm not sure why Paul is so hard for some people to understand. You'll notice he goes on to say...

He is persuaded better things of the believer....because "things that accompany salvation" will "keep us" unto the day of redemption (as per other scriptures that give us assurance of salvation.)

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Paul is only once more encouraging those who may have "heard" but "come short" of entering into the "rest" to make sure their calling and election is sure. Preachers do that...or should, all the time.
[quote="Hebrews 4:1-2":bjvgrk69]Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Paul said he was persuaded better things of them. That is far from saying it is impossible. He is saying though you could lose your salvation, we believe in you and that you will overcome.[/quote:bjvgrk69]
He says "it's impossible". Then he goes on to say why. For IF they did....to show exactly why it is impossible.

 

[glorydaz]

mondar wrote:
The willful sin is not just any sin. I put in red a phrase that follows verse 26. The willful sin in the context is counting "the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing..." The willful sin is for Jewish person, or Hebrew person who were among believers to return to the law as a means of justification. Such behavior would trod "underfoot the Son of God." This is the willful sin. Jewish people were leaving the christian assembly (see 10:25) and returning to Judiasm. The were leaving Christ for the Pharisaical Law. These Jews received a "knowledge of the truth." They did not have a faith in the truth and so went back to Judiasm. The judgment spoken of is the judgment of the law. Read Dueteronomy 28-29 and see the curses of the Law.

*** Is not focusing only on the underlined part quoting it out of context? Yes? No? Do we have to read verses 26 & 27 with the later part of the quote? Is the "willful sin" "treading underfoot the blood" by returning to Temple Judiasm?

[quote:29yey2pk]archangel_300 wrote:
I would have to agree with mondar here that when read its correct context is referring to the Hebrew person who after receiving the knowledge of Christ returns to the law as a means for justification.

While I would agree this seems perfectly logical, but I just re-read Heb 10 and nowhere is it warning them not to return to Judaism. And the point is here he was talking to BELIEVERS!. Yes, if they went back to the law and forsook the new covenant and the blood by which it was ratified, they woudl LOSE THEIR SALVATION!!! This book is NOT written to unbelievers, but to BELIEVERS!!! In one place it says, "you should have been teachers by now". The writer was saying they were believers but hadn't' growin in their faith. This book is written to BELIEVERS!!![/quote:29yey2pk]

Mondar is correct. This chapter is speaking of the Old and New Covenants, and the old and new priesthood. Most of the "believers" in this church are Jews...and there are always those who "profess" among the real saints. It's a question of what Covenant, and whether one has gone on through the veil to the holy of holies...by grace through faith.

 

[change]

Gloydaz wrote:


It's a question of whether God is able to keep us nor not. I say He is.

God does not force his will on anyone. The Holy Spirit appeals to our consciences, but does not force anything on us. By free will we accept Christ's calling.

The Spirit of God keeps us in check - shows us the wrongs and rights.

We are the ones who are not keeping God.

 

[jasoncran]

Gloydaz wrote:


It's a question of whether God is able to keep us nor not. I say He is.

God does not force his will on anyone. The Holy Spirit appeals to our consciences, but does not force anything on us. By free will we accept Christ's calling.

The Spirit of God keeps us in check - shows us the wrongs and rights.

We are the ones who are not keeping God.

then its legalism all over again. keep the law and your in heaven, keep christ and you are in heaven..

the sacrifice is just changed that's all.

 

[glorydaz]

Gloydaz wrote:


It's a question of whether God is able to keep us nor not. I say He is.

God does not force his will on anyone. The Holy Spirit appeals to our consciences, but does not force anything on us. By free will we accept Christ's calling.

The Spirit of God keeps us in check - shows us the wrongs and rights.

We are the ones who are not keeping God.

We have free will to choose God...to accept Christ's calling, as you say.

Then we are His...sold...bought with a price.
He will lose none the Father has given Him.
Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
We don't keep ourselves...He keeps us.
If it were up to us, none would be saved.

 

[archangel_300]

Gloydaz wrote:

It's a question of whether God is able to keep us nor not. I say He is.

God does not force his will on anyone. The Holy Spirit appeals to our consciences, but does not force anything on us. By free will we accept Christ's calling.

The Spirit of God keeps us in check - shows us the wrongs and rights.

I actually disagree, we in our own free will do not accept Christ's calling.
The thing is in our human carnal nature we all are spiritually dead. Dead as in Lazarus in the tomb dead. When Jesus called Lazarus to come forth, it's because Christ went to him first and called him to come to life. It's the same thing when it come to salvation. Dead men don't come to life unless Christ intervenes first.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man has the *capability* to come to Christ unless the Father draws him.
If Holy Spirit never did anything in this world, NONE of us.... that is EVERY SINGLE human individual would have no desire whatsoever to come to Christ and salvation. We would ALL reject Him because sin has destroyed our capacity to know and understand God and His ways. His ways can only be understood if the spirit of Christ dwells within us first and the breath of God gives life to our soul.

 

[jasoncran]

in our power we cant stay in christ.lets be honest. none seek after the lord.

why does the Lord have to chastise us even after salvation? to keep us? if so you would think that he would stop after time and time again? does he? no
then how does he keep us.

by christ. we can never be good enough, cant do it.
his chastiment is for our growth, and holiness.he is pruning off the flesh.

we must die daily.

do we want to die daily. be honest with ourselves.

i will use me as an example

i work seven days .. even on easter and other holidays.
for me it a challenge to go to church. i would much rather sleep.

why do i then desire to go to church. because i love him. how can i love him. he saved me and then because of that i am able to return that love

 

[change]

archangel_300"]

[quote:byh0r6p5]Gloydaz wrote:

It's a question of whether God is able to keep us nor not. I say He is.

God does not force his will on anyone. The Holy Spirit appeals to our consciences, but does not force anything on us. By free will we accept Christ's calling.

The Spirit of God keeps us in check - shows us the wrongs and rights.

I actually disagree, we in our own free will do not accept Christ's calling.
The thing is in our human carnal nature we all are spiritually dead. Dead as in Lazarus in the tomb dead. When Jesus called Lazarus to come forth, it's because Christ went to him first and called him to come to life. It's the same thing when it come to salvation. Dead men don't come to life unless Christ intervenes first. [/quote:byh0r6p5]

Are you saying that The Holy Spirit forced us to worship God? WOW!!

 

[archangel_300]

Are you saying that The Holy Spirit forced us to worship God? WOW!!

Let me just regurgitate scripture:

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e] 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.â€[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.â€[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?†20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?†21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

 

[jasoncran]

what version is that? niv or esv?

 

[archangel_300]

what version is that? niv or esv?

NKJV

 

[change]

Gloydaz wrote:


It's a question of whether God is able to keep us nor not. I say He is.

God does not force his will on anyone. The Holy Spirit appeals to our consciences, but does not force anything on us. By free will we accept Christ's calling.

The Spirit of God keeps us in check - shows us the wrongs and rights.

We are the ones who are not keeping God.

then its legalism all over again. keep the law and your in heaven, keep christ and you are in heaven..

the sacrifice is just changed that's all.

The priesthood and the sacrifices is changed. Christ came from heaven to offer himself as the ultimate sacrifice for sin. He is our High Priest because he interceeds on our behalf. while he was a man on earth he live a life that exhibits the way we must live. If we endeavor to follow Christ's example we do good. We should always asked ourselves the questions: What would Christ do? and what did Christ say?

Our aid is the Holy Spirit. He points us in the right directions. He bring to our remembrance what Christ say and do. He does not force us to do nothing we don't want to do. He enables our desire to do God's will.

 

[DarcyLu]

We have free will to choose God...to accept Christ's calling, as you say.

glory, i'm sorry but come on......we don't chose God, He chooses us. He loved us first, He died while we were in our sins, He chose the Israelites, they did not chose Him. He must first put His love on us.

please give us a verse where it says what you are saying.......

 

[jasoncran]

We have free will to choose God...to accept Christ's calling, as you say.

glory, i'm sorry but come on......we don't chose God, He chooses us. He loved us first, He died while we were in our sins, He chose the Israelites, they did not chose Him. He must first put His love on us.

please give us a verse where it says what you are saying.......

can we not say no?

 

[jasoncran]

let me ask you this, change
if its on us then to be saved.

then how can we without the holy spirit doing it for us. we allow him, but we dont have the strenght to live the life and make it. the messiah comes in and atoned for us on the cross once and for all. if its loosable then can we cruficy him a fresh and get atonement again.

he lives in us, and we yeild. that is how the works come out. we yeild once yeilding this life . we are being sanctified, not saved. difference in sanctification then salvation.
salvation first then santification.

otherwise what of the thief on the cross?

 

[DarcyLu]

We have free will to choose God...to accept Christ's calling, as you say.

glory, i'm sorry but come on......we don't chose God, He chooses us. He loved us first, He died while we were in our sins, He chose the Israelites, they did not chose Him. He must first put His love on us.

please give us a verse where it says what you are saying.......

can we not say no?

we can reject Christ.
my point was, and i should have been more specific, but it really, really bothers me when we go to many churches and they have the altar call and "accept Christ into your heart" and you are saved, etc. and then that's it - so "accept Christ's calling" is a carnal, worldy saying, imo.

God does the chosing, there is predestination and the elect. did He not chose Israel, Moses, Abraham, David, and on and on and He hated Esau. WE are not the ones in control, He is, we have very minimal "free will" choices. He knows the beginning to the end, our names are already written in the Book of Life and Revelation talks about how He can erase our names, too.

the "feel good" religion is getting really, really old....i don't think Paul thought it was a "feel good" religion and either did Jesus!

 

[jasoncran]

actually that word used as hate in that verse in the greek means loved less. in the kjv using that same word translating you wouldnt assume that we are to hate our parents.

if any man hateth not his mother or father he cannot be my disciple.

 

[DarcyLu]

let me ask you this, change
if its on us then to be saved.

then how can we without the holy spirit doing it for us. we allow him, but we dont have the strenght to live the life and make it. the messiah comes in and atoned for us on the cross once and for all. if its loosable then can we cruficy him a fresh and get atonement again.

he lives in us, and we yeild. that is how the works come out. we yeild once yeilding this life . we are being sanctified, not saved. difference in sanctification then salvation.
salvation first then santification.

otherwise what of the thief on the cross?

yes, that is right jason, as long as we abide in Christ, this is a free choice for us, we can chose to walk away, but we must have been chosen by God first.
it's a perfect plan, no flesh can enter heaven, we must die to our flesh and live as Christ! if we are not dying to ourselves, sacrificing our flesh, then we are not allowing Christ to live in us. how can we be prepared to live in this world, be prepared for tribulation, if we are not dying to ourselves and allowing Christ to manifest Himself in us? if we don't do this, then we will die! spiritually.