Can a Saved man choose to be Lost?

[archangel_300]

I have really struggled with Romans 9. When I first read it I was appalled. I couldn't understand it, and to be frank, I still don't. I did read in one of my study bibles that it is implied that vessels of destruction PREPARED themselves for destruction. I don't know if that is true. But I have struggled with Romans ch 9 more than any other scripture in the bible.

Faith, you're not the only one that struggled with Romans 9... I did too.
My response was pretty much like change's...

 

[jasoncran]

but the question is are your more saved by holiness if it must sought after in order to keep salvation.
its sought after salvation as an evidence not for, slight difference

you say one must be holy to be saved
i say you will be holy because you are saved.

I think when we stand before Jesus, we will be accountable for what we know. Many people don't KNOW the commandments of holiness in the NT. I do not believe they will be punished for that, except Jesus may say "If you'd read my Word more you would have known that." I didn't say you have to be holy to be saved either. Like I have said, IMO, the only way to lose your salvation is to either reject Christ entirely, or to go off into willfull sin and never repent before you die. We are made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. We are righteous now. I emphasize holiness because it is what separates us from the world, and clearly if you read 2 COR 7, we are to "come out from among them." The world should be able to see we are different, that when we are insulted, we don't insult back, when we are in the middle of a storm, we are calm and our trust in the Lord and His provision. That we do not speak with foul mouths or watch movies with excessive violence, sex of foul language. That we do not listen to secular music that is filled with selfishness and is mostly about partying, sex, etc. Even secular love songs end up making the object of their love an idol (I can't live without you type of stuff). I'm not judging people for what they do, only God can look on the heart. But as Christians, we need to be the light of the world, and we cannot be if we are living just like them.

why do you assume that we osas are that way, i'm insulted by this

my pastor today talked about when he backslid for three years. do you want to know what we went to do say.

he was glad his daughter who was there at church didnt know him then and that he regretts it, tears flowed from his eyes, he was sorry for he hurt the lord when he did that. he told if you going to backslide dont . he said dont choose sin over the lord it aint worth it.

another man cried that he was saved from his sins and that if you dont know the lord , get saved, he's worth it.

 

[jasoncran]

if you read my post, i avoid most secular entertainment. and i will say that if you are truly saved you will want to know more of him.

i wanted to when i was young in christ. all these verse i pull up by memory is because i wanted to learn my sword and prove it.

 

[faithtransforms]

To understand election and predestination a bit further you need to understand how Christ atones for sin. According to the justice of God *every* single sin requires payment to be made. God is perfectly righteous and just. No sin that ever enters into this universe ever goes unpunished.
When Christ died on the cross for our sins he *PAID* for our sins, meaning that He took ALL my sins I would commit in my life from my very birth to my last dying breath. He suffered under God's wrath for my sin equivalent to me spending an eternity under damnation. This occurred 2000 years ago... so it was before I was even born. All the things I would do in my life were already known and paid for by Christ before my very first breath.

That's why you cannot lose your salvation. If your sins are COMPLETELY PAID for and you can lose your salvation and and in doing so end up in hell having to pay for them again it means that God is not just or righteous.

I agree what you are saying does make sense, and to tell you the truth, I have seriously considered OSAS before. Honestly, I think the bible is a little contradictory with this doctrine. Jesus says "I will lose none" yet so many other passages indicate salvation can be lost. I still feel salvation can be lost, but AGAIN, I think the only way to lose it is to either totally reject Christ after having been saved, or to go off into willfull sin and never repent before you die.

For example, why does Peter say "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure" if it is already sure?

 

[change]

Because God knows the hearts of man, even before they are born, he could come arrive at a conclusion whom he hate or love - Psalms 139:1, Luke 16:15, Acts 1:24, Romans 8:27, Revelations 2:23.

God is not evil; God is love.

God is not evil... we are. None of us are worthy of heaven and all of us deserve to pay for all the sins we commit in our life. If God chooses some people (not based on anything we do) and not others who can fault him? There is no difference between me and another sinner... we are all transgressors of the law. There is nothing in and of ourselves that warrants any sort of merit from God.

None of us seek after God in our own human nature. This is the state we are in since birth until the time Christ comes to save us. Romans 3:10-11

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.â€[d] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.â€[e]

But when the gospel call comes to us and we respond it takes on the appearance of a free will decision we make when in essence at the very core it is Christ who accomplished the work within us first.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both[a] which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more ... yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -- Hosea 9:15-16

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. -- Leviticus 20:23

I will ... cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. -- Leviticus 26:30

And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them ... for they are ... children in whom is no faith. -- Deuteronomy 32:19-20

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. -- Psalm 5:5

The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. -- Psalm 11:5

These six things doth the LORD hate ... A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. -- Proverbs 6:16, 19

I hated Esau. -- Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13

God hate man because of their deeds. How fair would be His judgment if we have no choice to choose our path? If it was predestined by God for us to do evil Then God hiself is evil for making me evil.

Be careful how you trod.

 

[DarcyLu]

if you read my post, i avoid most secular entertainment. and i will say that if you are truly saved you will want to know more of him.

i wanted to when i was young in christ. all these verse i pull up by memory is because i wanted to learn my sword and prove it.

i agree with you jason, He does pull us to read His Word and into prayer. i remember alot of scripture, but sometimes i don't recall the chapter or the verse. grrr lol
God bless -

 

[faithtransforms]

but the question is are your more saved by holiness if it must sought after in order to keep salvation.
its sought after salvation as an evidence not for, slight difference

you say one must be holy to be saved
i say you will be holy because you are saved.

I think when we stand before Jesus, we will be accountable for what we know. Many people don't KNOW the commandments of holiness in the NT. I do not believe they will be punished for that, except Jesus may say "If you'd read my Word more you would have known that." I didn't say you have to be holy to be saved either. Like I have said, IMO, the only way to lose your salvation is to either reject Christ entirely, or to go off into willfull sin and never repent before you die. We are made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. We are righteous now. I emphasize holiness because it is what separates us from the world, and clearly if you read 2 COR 7, we are to "come out from among them." The world should be able to see we are different, that when we are insulted, we don't insult back, when we are in the middle of a storm, we are calm and our trust in the Lord and His provision. That we do not speak with foul mouths or watch movies with excessive violence, sex of foul language. That we do not listen to secular music that is filled with selfishness and is mostly about partying, sex, etc. Even secular love songs end up making the object of their love an idol (I can't live without you type of stuff). I'm not judging people for what they do, only God can look on the heart. But as Christians, we need to be the light of the world, and we cannot be if we are living just like them.

why do you assume that we osas are that way, i'm insulted by this

my pastor today talked about when he backslid for three years. do you want to know what we went to do say.

he was glad his daughter who was there at church didnt know him then and that he regretts it, tears flowed from his eyes, he was sorry for he hurt the lord when he did that. he told if you going to backslide dont . he said dont choose sin over the lord it aint worth it.

another man cried that he was saved from his sins and that if you dont know the lord , get saved, he's worth it.

No offense intended And in this post, I didn't say that all OSAS's are this way. It sounds like you belong to a great church. I've just never had any personal experience with OSAS's that try to live by the standards God has set for us. Obviously you do, and that gives me hope. Maybe there are many others like you, I've just not had personal experience with any.

 

[archangel_300]

I've been able to find seven scripturally recommended choices: Life, way of truth, God's precepts, serving Him, fearing Him, a good name and favor among men (above wealth), and pleasing Him. The implication, in some cases explicilty stated, is that we can also choose some alternative to what is encouraged.

Since death and life are in the power of the tongue, and it is by our words that we are either saved or condemned, I hear God saying that we choose by saying, "I choose ..." Thus, backsliding or stumbling may not be a choice.

If I suspected that I was not chosen by God for salvation, or even that I had been created by God as a vessel of wrath, I would declare that I choose His life, knowing Him and His Son. I would ask Him to change His mind concerning me, if necessary, and in any case, to choose me for salvation. And I would pester Him until He gave me the assurance of salvation I was seeking, even a word of prophecy that I could confess unto salvation.

If He has predestined me for salvation, well good. If not, let's get that plan changed! I choose life, truth, I choose it all.

In talking to Him about this, He seemed pleased, and then told me my election and calling were to be at His side for eternity.
Truthlover

Yes... and this shows that you are one of God's elect.

No one is ever going to come to the Judgment throne of God and say "I truly wanted you and desired for salvation but I was not chosen by you". Every single person that is judged by God and ends up in hell never wants Christ anyway.

 

[jasoncran]

faith, many of the most holy and god fearing men and woman are on both sides of this debate.

look for them in you area.

pray for me as i need to be more like jesus.

trust me. my flesh needs some of that old time preachin and crufixication.

 

[archangel_300]

God hate man because of their deeds. How fair would be His judgment if we have no choice to choose our path? If it was predestined by God for us to do evil Then God hiself is evil for making me evil.

Be careful how you trod.

We are NOT predestined to do evil.
We have been given free will to do as we please. We choose to do good and we choose to do evil.
The decisions we make are our own. No one forces anyone to sin.

 

[change]

I agree what you are saying does make sense, and to tell you the truth, I have seriously considered OSAS before. Honestly, I think the bible is a little contradictory with this doctrine. Jesus says "I will lose none" yet so many other passages indicate salvation can be lost. I still feel salvation can be lost, but AGAIN, I think the only way to lose it is to either totally reject Christ after having been saved, or to go off into willfull sin and never repent before you die.

For example, why does Peter say "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure" if it is already sure?

God knows those who are his. Not everybody that says "Lord, Lord" has a real desire for God. Some people are backsliders; they started out on a path of truth then sway to something esle - the lost their first love.

 

[archangel_300]

I agree what you are saying does make sense, and to tell you the truth, I have seriously considered OSAS before. Honestly, I think the bible is a little contradictory with this doctrine. Jesus says "I will lose none" yet so many other passages indicate salvation can be lost. I still feel salvation can be lost, but AGAIN, I think the only way to lose it is to either totally reject Christ after having been saved, or to go off into willfull sin and never repent before you die.

For example, why does Peter say "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure" if it is already sure?

No one knows who is God's elect and who isn't, this is all God's business and not ours.

If we claim to be saved then the fruits of God's spirit should be manifest in our lives. We should be living a holy life of repentance. I think that's what Peter is referring to... make sure our calling and election is for real. If I truly think I've become born again I should closely examine my very own life and walk with God.

 

[jasoncran]

good bible study. is it not.

 

[faithtransforms]

trust me. my flesh needs some of that old time preachin and crufixication.

Amen to that my friend!!!!! I will pray for you I need some of that flesh crucifying myself!

 

[Mysteryman]

that's what you meant when you say it means to hate literally by translation. look it up in the greek. it aint the word for it to hate, but love less.meaning that christ must be first

Jason is correct !

 

[Mysteryman]

but the question is are your more saved by holiness if it must sought after in order to keep salvation.
its sought after salvation as an evidence not for, slight difference

you say one must be holy to be saved
i say you will be holy because you are saved.

Jason is correct again !

 

[DarcyLu]

that's what you meant when you say it means to hate literally by translation. look it up in the greek. it aint the word for it to hate, but love less.meaning that christ must be first

Jason is correct !

the verse we are discussing is in the NT, which is Hebrew, not Greek:
Luke 14:26
26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

to hate
Original Word: ?????
Transliteration: miseó
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
Short Definition: hate

Word Origin
from misos (hatred)
Definition
to hate
NASB Word Usage
hate (13), hated (12), hateful (1), hates (12), hating (2).

 

[DarcyLu]

that's what you meant when you say it means to hate literally by translation. look it up in the greek. it aint the word for it to hate, but love less.meaning that christ must be first

Jason is correct !

****I KNOW I MESSED UP - GREEK NOT HEBREW-please let the boo's be at a minimal. lol
the verse we are discussing is in the NT, which is Hebrew, not Greek:
Luke 14:26
26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

to hate
Original Word: ?????
Transliteration: miseó
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
Short Definition: hate

Word Origin
from misos (hatred)
Definition
to hate
NASB Word Usage
hate (13), hated (12), hateful (1), hates (12), hating (2).

 

[DarcyLu]

Greek definition for hate


1. (n.) To have a great aversion to, with a strong desire that evil should befall the person toward whom the feeling is directed; to dislike intensely; to detest; as, to hate one's enemies; to hate hypocrisy.

2. (n.) To be very unwilling; followed by an infinitive, or a substantive clause with that; as, to hate to get into debt; to hate that anything should be wasted.

3. (n.) To love less, relatively.

4. (v.) Strong aversion coupled with desire that evil should befall the person toward whom the feeling is directed; as exercised toward things, intense dislike; hatred; detestation; -- opposed to love.

 

[jasoncran]

Greek definition for hate


1. (n.) To have a great aversion to, with a strong desire that evil should befall the person toward whom the feeling is directed; to dislike intensely; to detest; as, to hate one's enemies; to hate hypocrisy.

2. (n.) To be very unwilling; followed by an infinitive, or a substantive clause with that; as, to hate to get into debt; to hate that anything should be wasted.

3. (n.) To love less, relatively.

4. (v.) Strong aversion coupled with desire that evil should befall the person toward whom the feeling is directed; as exercised toward things, intense dislike; hatred; detestation; -- opposed to love.

my case on that word in greek rests.