Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

[JLB]

Nope. What kind of existence is a physical body in when buried? The existence of DEATH, not any kind of life at all.


The Bible properly describes the existence as an eternal DEATH, not life.


Correct.


No, it is only an assumption that there "has to have some form of life". Who said so? All in the LoF are existing in a state of death. Spiritual death. No life at all. All death, all the time.


Yes, it is eternal. But your assumption that there "has to have some kind of life" is wrong.

Just as a physical body is in a state of death in the ground, so also the spiritually dead soul will exist in the LoF.

You're making the same erroneous assumptions as JLB does. Read my last few posts. Esp 132, and please feel free to either agree or disagree with my statements. If you disagree, please explain why so for those you do disagree with.

Thanks.

An eternal being does not cease to exist.

They are in a state of torment, which of course means they are aware of this torment and have no rest from this torment.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You need to answer my question, which you have not.

I did, and I will again.

Please show me what it is that causes these in the lake of fire to continue to exist, and experience the torment forever and ever.

Your question continues to be a false premise; that there is some "cause" that keeps them there. I wish you would at least read and respond to my posts, where I've clearly explained the facts.

When you were born, you were physically alive, and spiritually dead. Agreed? And when you believed in Christ, God made you "alive" by the new birth, also called regeneration or being born again. Agreed?

Now, when the physical body is dead, is there any physical life in it? No. Agreed?

But, when you were spiritually made alive, which is also called having eternal life, there is no death in that. Agreed?

So, those in the LoF are spiritually dead. There is nothing that is alive. Seems you are unfamiliar with the teaching of spiritual death. That's the problem.

If you don't answer, then I will just assume you don't really know.

I know, and I've told you repeatedly. There is NO LIFE in the second DEATH.

Which means that it may or may not be eternal life that causes those beings to continue to exist in the lake of fire, forever and ever. JLB

Let me ask you the reverse question: what sustained your spiritual death when you were born? Or, did it need to be sustained in order to exist as spiritual death?

Please answer. I'm getting tired of answering your questions, but you ignoring mine. This is a one-way conversation.

 

[FreeGrace]

An eternal being does not cease to exist.

And I never said they did cease to exist. They are eternally DEAD. Just as when they were physically born alive, but were spiritually dead. And in the LoF, which is the SECOND DEATH.

They are in a state of torment, which of course means they are aware of this torment and have no rest from this torment.

Yep. All the while spiritually DEAD. No life. Whatsoever.

Now, please do me the favor of answering the questions about whether you agree or not with my statements in post 132.

That's the only way I will know how much of what I say is being understood by you.

Thank you.

ps: these are not trick questions. They are straight forward questions that will demonstate how much you understand about what spiritual death is.

 

[for_his_glory]

Spiritually dead, yes, just as those who are still spiritually dead that yet have the breath of life in them as they remain separate from the Father and have no inheritance into the kingdom of God. No life, wrong as their eternal life is that of torment, punishment, weeping and gnashing of teeth for the torment they will face for eternity. I think you are only seeing one side of what eternal life means as in eternal life being with Christ the moment we made Him Lord and Savior as we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the great and terrible day of the Lord coming. How can one in the lake of fire exist if there is not some form of life for them to exist as JLB has said many times. A spirit never dies like that of the soul and body and it's not flesh and blood that will reside in heaven or the lake of fire, but will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, some to glory and some to everlasting torment.

 

[JLB]

And I never said they did cease to exist. They are eternally DEAD. Just as when they were physically born alive, but were spiritually dead. And in the LoF, which is the SECOND DEATH.


Yep. All the while spiritually DEAD. No life. Whatsoever.

Now, please do me the favor of answering the questions about whether you agree or not with my statements in post 132.

That's the only way I will know how much of what I say is being understood by you.

Thank you.

ps: these are not trick questions. They are straight forward questions that will demonstate how much you understand about what spiritual death is.

Another post with no scripture.

Eternal beings continue to exist in the lake of fire forever.

Most likely by the eternal life God has granted to them.

JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Another post with no scripture.

Eternal beings continue to exist in the lake of fire forever.

Most likely by the eternal life God has granted to them.

JLB

Yep, you can't kill a spirit being, which we are. No mentioned of them being able to be killed, they go back to God and are judged. The body goes to the earth..

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
(Ecc 12:7)

 

[FreeGrace]

Another post with no scripture.

Eternal beings continue to exist in the lake of fire forever.

They are existing in the state of DEATH, not life, as you continue to (state). (Edited, Obadiah)

Most likely by the eternal life God has granted to them.JLB

Another post with no Scripture.

Please show me where in Scripture that God has granted to those in the LoF "eternal life".

Your view equates eternal life with eternal death. Totally contradictory.

Eternal life is NOT eternal death. They are mutually exclusive.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment.)

 

[JLB]

They are existing in the state of DEATH, not life, as you continue to (state). (Edited, Obadiah)


Another post with no Scripture.

Please show me where in Scripture that God has granted to those in the LoF "eternal life".

Your view equates eternal life with eternal death. Totally contradictory.

Eternal life is NOT eternal death. They are mutually exclusive.

(Edited, ToS 2.4, belittling comment.)

Still you have not answered, using a scripture, my original question.

You just keep saying that I don't understand, or I wrongly assume...

What causes these, who are cast into the lake of fire, to continue to exist forever and ever, if it is not eternal life?


The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


If you can't give an explanation, with scripture, as to why these who have been cast into the lake of fire continue to exist apart from eternal life, then just say like Chessman, I don't know.


Eternal beings, are eternal, because God has granted to them to be eternal.


Angels are called sons of God.

Some angels, lost their place with God, and were cast down to hell.


Sons of God were cast into hell.


Sons of God will be cast into the lake of fire, as well.


They will continue to exist there, forever, being tormented day and night with no rest.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Still you have not answered, using a scripture, my original question.

Let's be clear here. Neither have you supported your assumptions that God has given eternal life to everyone. Second, I have demonstrated the fallacy of your assumption that leads to the conclusion that there is no difference between eternal life and eternal death, since you claim that the state of eternal life exists in the state of eternal death, which is impossible. And you haven't refuted my charge of your contradiction.

You just keep saying that I don't understand, or I wrongly assume…

Well…because (in my opinion) (Edited, Obadiah) you do. How about answering the questions in post #132 for a start.

What causes these, who are cast into the lake of fire, to continue to exist forever and ever, if it is not eternal life?

I've told you repeatedly. They are in the state of DEATH, not life. And nothing is needed to sustain death.

Does a body in the grave need to be "sustained" in order to stay dead? No. Neither does spiritual death. Which you (Do not appear to be) (Edited, Obadiah) understanding.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


If you can't give an explanation, with scripture, as to why these who have been cast into the lake of fire continue to exist apart from eternal life, then just say like Chessman, I don't know.


Eternal beings, are eternal, because God has granted to them to be eternal.

Here's (my understanding). (Edited, Obadiah) Being "eternal" doesn't equate to eternal life. The Scripures are very clear about where eternal life comes from, and who gets it. Not everyone gets it. Unless you can find any verse that says so. But there aren't any.

Angels are called sons of God.

Some angels, lost their place with God, and were cast down to hell.


Sons of God were cast into hell.


Sons of God will be cast into the lake of fire, as well.


They will continue to exist there, forever, being tormented day and night with no rest.JLB

All of this is irrelevant. Why? Because there are NO verses that say that God gave any angel "eternal life". None.

(Edited and removed, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)

What you (do not appear) (Edited, Obadiah) to understand is that eternal beings will exist forever in a state of DEATH, not life. Your view equates death and life, which is irrational.

Death and life are mutually exclusive. But you resist that (idea). (Edited, Obadiah)
(Removed, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

Let's be clear here. Neither have you supported your assumptions that God has given eternal life to everyone. Second, I have demonstrated the fallacy of your assumption that leads to the conclusion that there is no difference between eternal life and eternal death, since you claim that the state of eternal life exists in the state of eternal death, which is impossible. And you haven't refuted my charge of your contradiction.


Well…because (in my opinion) (Edited, Obadiah) you do. How about answering the questions in post #132 for a start.


I've told you repeatedly. They are in the state of DEATH, not life. And nothing is needed to sustain death.

Does a body in the grave need to be "sustained" in order to stay dead? No. Neither does spiritual death. Which you (Do not appear to be) (Edited, Obadiah) understanding.


Here's (my understanding). (Edited, Obadiah) Being "eternal" doesn't equate to eternal life. The Scripures are very clear about where eternal life comes from, and who gets it. Not everyone gets it. Unless you can find any verse that says so. But there aren't any.


All of this is irrelevant. Why? Because there are NO verses that say that God gave any angel "eternal life". None.

(Edited and removed, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)

What you (do not appear) (Edited, Obadiah) to understand is that eternal beings will exist forever in a state of DEATH, not life. Your view equates death and life, which is irrational.

Death and life are mutually exclusive. But you resist that (idea). (Edited, Obadiah)
(Removed, ToS 2.4, personal insult. Obadiah)

(Removed, response to deleted comment. Obadiah)

As I said about 50 post's back, you are the one who hasn't shown how those who are cast into the lake of fire continue to exist there forever and ever, apart from eternal life.

You have never answered the initial question.

So I WIL conclude, (Removed, assumes facts about other members that can't be known. Obadiah) that you just don't know.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

(Removed, response to deleted comment. Obadiah)

As I said about 50 post's back, you are the one who hasn't shown how those who are cast into the lake of fire continue to exist there forever and ever, apart from eternal life.

I'll repeat: they AREN'T "sustained" by anything. As I've asked several times (removed belittling comment, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) why do you think that dead needs sustenance anyway? Does a dead body need something to keep it dead? Of course not. Same for spiritual death.

You have never answered the initial question.

Yes, I have, many times, now. (Removed, belittling comment, ToS 2.4. Obadiah)

So I WIL conclude, (Removed, assumes facts about other members that can't be known. Obadiah) that you just don't know.

You may conclude anything you want to, but you've consistently ignored my questions to you, plus you ignore my answers to you. So it's been just a one-way conversation so far.

Your view equates death with life, which is (wrong in my opinion) (Edited, Obadiah).

They are mutually exclusive, (removed, belittling. Obadiah). If you can't refute it with evidence to the contrary, why don't you believe it? (Removed, ToS 2.4, makes assumptions of another's spiritual standing. Obadiah)

 

[for_his_glory]

Ecc 9:5 for the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
James 2:26 for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul also dies as the breath goes back to God who gave it. 1Cor 15 speaks of the resurrection of the dead. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be changed into that likeness of Christ in all His glory

Death and Hades are destroyed before the unrighteous are thrown into the lake of fire, Rev 20:13-15, as the sea, death and Hades gave up those who were asleep in the grave (righteous and unrighteous), 1Thess 4:13, to stand in judgment as we will either stand in Jesus judgment (Bema) or the great white throne judgment.

Reread Rev 20:13, 14 as it is death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire that is the second death, not the unrighteous being the second death as while they were delivered up for judgment death and Hades was being thrown into the lake of fire. Death is now taken out before the torment of the unrighteous begins.

Nowhere in scripture does it say physically what we will look like (righteous or unrighteous), but only descriptive as one will have eternal life with the Father and the other an eternal life of torment. It is not the life we have now in this physical body, but yet one that is conscious of its surroundings.

 

[FreeGrace]

Ecc 9:5 for the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
James 2:26 for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul also dies as the breath goes back to God who gave it. 1Cor 15 speaks of the resurrection of the dead. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be changed into that likeness of Christ in all His glory

Death and Hades are destroyed before the unrighteous are thrown into the lake of fire, Rev 20:13-15, as the sea, death and Hades gave up those who were asleep in the grave (righteous and unrighteous), 1Thess 4:13, to stand in judgment as we will either stand in Jesus judgment (Bema) or the great white throne judgment.

Reread Rev 20:13, 14 as it is death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire that is the second death, not the unrighteous being the second death as while they were delivered up for judgment death and Hades was being thrown into the lake of fire. Death is now taken out before the torment of the unrighteous begins.

Nowhere in scripture does it say physically what we will look like (righteous or unrighteous), but only descriptive as one will have eternal life with the Father and the other an eternal life of torment. It is not the life we have now in this physical body, but yet one that is conscious of its surroundings.

When a post doesn't address anyone specifically, it's hard to know who the post is directed to.

How would you answer the question: can eternal life exist in the second death? Yes, or no.

Thanks.

 

[Brother Mike]

Nowhere in scripture does it say physically what we will look like (righteous or unrighteous), but only descriptive as one will have eternal life with the Father and the other an eternal life of torment. It is not the life we have now in this physical body, but yet one that is conscious of its surroundings.

It's really that simple. The spirit of man goes back to God for judgement.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Mat 25:46)

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:2)

While Scripture does not call Eternal life a life in Hell, (Lake of fire, or otherwise) Without Jesus it's eternal punishment, eternal shame, and everlasting contempt. There is no scripture denoting that Hades was destroyed, it just says thrown into the Lake of fire because Earth is destroyed, melted, whatever. God finds a new place to place Hades.

God is good, but this free grace thought of being able to ignore your eternal creator without an eternal consequence, being ignorant of the fact you are a spirit being that does not get destroyed, nor is there any scripture stating any spirit being gets destroyed is Real shaky ground to place a belief in no eternal punishment.

No eternal punishment takes the hyper grace message to a whole new level. A level scriptures do not cover. If there is no Eternal punishment, then there is no Eternal life. The reward and free gift of justification is so great, that the refusal of such a free gift also brings just the opposite dire consequences.

 

[for_his_glory]

When a post doesn't address anyone specifically, it's hard to know who the post is directed to.

How would you answer the question: can eternal life exist in the second death? Yes, or no.

Thanks.

My post are directed to everyone who wants to reply to them. If they are directed to one person then I will place their name at the beginning. Apparently you did not understand the part about what the second death is. To understand what it is you need to read Rev 20:13-15 to know that death and Hades that is thrown into the lake of fire is the second death, not the unrighteous that are not found written in the Lambs book of life. Death and Hades (grave) has no more place as death is sin, which is no more in the end and the strength of sin was the law as many fell into sin not able to keep all the law, but through the grace of God He gave us a way out of our sin through that of His son Christ Jesus that all could reconcile themselves back to the Father to stand sinless before Him.

1Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[FreeGrace]

My post are directed to everyone who wants to reply to them.

I did. This is what I posted, from your previous post:
How would you answer the question: can eternal life exist in the second death? Yes, or no.

Thanks.

If they are directed to one person then I will place their name at the beginning. Apparently you did not understand the part about what the second death is. To understand what it is you need to read Rev 20:13-15 to know that death and Hades that is thrown into the lake of fire is the second death, not the unrighteous that are not found written in the Lambs book of life.

Rev 20:15 is crystal clear. The second death IS the LoF. Where all who don't possess eternal life will exist forever.

Death and Hades (grave) has no more place as death is sin, which is no more in the end and the strength of sin was the law as many fell into sin not able to keep all the law, but through the grace of God He gave us a way out of our sin through that of His son Christ Jesus that all could reconcile themselves back to the Father to stand sinless before Him.

1Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

I do not understand why you included these verses, which have no relevance to the OP.

 

[for_his_glory]

I did. This is what I posted, from your previous post:
How would you answer the question: can eternal life exist in the second death? Yes, or no.

Thanks.


Rev 20:15 is crystal clear. The second death IS the LoF. Where all who don't possess eternal life will exist forever.


I do not understand why you included these verses, which have no relevance to the OP.

These verses are very relevant to the OP and all the other post that have followed. You are fixated on the words eternal life being only that of eternal life with the Father, but missing the point of what the meaning of death and Hades is in Rev 20:13-15. Again, it's death and Hades that are cast into the lake of fire when those of the grave that have physically died are resurrected (righteous and unrighteous) to stand in judgment as some are given eternal life with the Father and others are cast into the lake of fire where death and Hades has already been cast into.

Death is not the person, death is sin as it is sin that separates us from the Father. Hades is the grave or hole in the ground that we are laid in when we physically die. After the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous the grave (Hades) has no more victory over the risen saints of God. Just as Satan thought he had the victory over Jesus when Jesus was laid in the tomb, but instead Jesus won the victory over Satan when he rose from the grave (Hades). The grave (Hades) is cast into the lake of fire as there is no more victory for it. If one in the Lake of fire feels the pains of torment and are gnashing their teeth and weeping then they have to have a type of eternal life, but again, an eternal life separated from the Father as God remembers them no more and their reward is torment and damnation forever as an eternal life of a miserable existence that will never change.

 

[FreeGrace]

These verses are very relevant to the OP and all the other post that have followed. You are fixated on the words eternal life being only that of eternal life with the Father

Fixated? No, I'm using Scriptural words. In fact, that's the ONLY way it's used in the Bible; the life of the Father, who gives it to those who believe. That is no fixation. I'm just paying attention to what Scripture says.

, but missing the point of what the meaning of death and Hades is in Rev 20:13-15.

I know exactly what it means. It means eternal separation from God. What did you think it means?

Again, it's death and Hades that are cast into the lake of fire when those of the grave that have physically died are resurrected (righteous and unrighteous) to stand in judgment as some are given eternal life with the Father and others are cast into the lake of fire where death and Hades has already been cast into.

Please keep reading, all the way up to v.15.

Death is not the person, death is sin as it is sin that separates us from the Father.

Misconception, imho. Christ died for all sin. He "took away the sin of the world". I take that literally. No one goes to the LoF for their sin. Unless one argues that Christ didn't complete His mission.

Hades is the grave or hole in the ground that we are laid in when we physically die.

I'm not really interested in physical death. It's nearly meaningless in the discussion of eternal life. The issue is where one's soul will reside for eternity. And because believers will receive a "resurrection body", the physical body means nothing.

If one in the Lake of fire feels the pains of torment and are gnashing their teeth and weeping then they have to have a type of eternal life

This is the same erroneous assumption that has been made by another poster. Existence is NOT life. Certainly not "eternal life". Please show me anywhere in Scripture that speaks of an "eternal life" that is not related to God's life.

Every time the words "eternal life" occur, it refers to the life of God, who gives it to believers. No one else.

, but again, an eternal life separated from the Father as God remembers them no more and their reward is torment and damnation forever as an eternal life of a miserable existence that will never change.

It is not an eternal life. It is an eternal death. That's the ONLY way the Bible describes it.

Would you describe a dead body in the grave as having any kind of life? Of course not. The same for spiritual death of the soul. It exists in the STATE of death, not any kind of life.

If your view were correct, then you have successfully removed any real meaning or difference between eternal life and the second death.

 

[for_his_glory]

FreeGrace,
I have already showed what scripture says death and Hades is in Rev 20:13-15 and 1 Corinthians 15:55, 56. It's not my opinion, but that of what scripture says. You are only seeing that of eternal life as being a glorious life with the Father as per scripture, which is true for the righteous, but yet missing the point that if one has an existence in the lake of fire they feel the pains of torment. Death is sin, nothing more, nothing less as scripture tells us so. All are risen from the grave (Hades), some to eternal life with the Father and some an eternal life (existence) of being separated from the Father as for eternity they will have to endure that of the torments in the lake of fire.

Do you believe we will be in new physical bodies when we enter the New Jerusalem?

BTW, Jesus did not take all the sin of the world away when he died. If he did then we would be living in a sinless world and the last time I looked it is still a sinful world. Jesus was made the final blood sacrifice for us to atone for our sins as He now sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us before the Father, but that is another topic.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace,
I have already showed what scripture says death and Hades is in Rev 20:13-15 and 1 Corinthians 15:55, 56. It's not my opinion, but that of what scripture says.

There is nothing in those passages that supports the idea that there will be "life" in the second DEATH.

You are only seeing that of eternal life as being a glorious life with the Father as per scripture, which is true for the righteous, but yet missing the point that if one has an existence in the lake of fire they feel the pains of torment.

I believe you have missed the point that existence isn't life. A dead body exists. When a person dies, the body remains behind. It exists, though dead. You have not made your point. Those in the LoF will exist in spiritual death. No life.

The Bible ONLY speaks of eternal life as being God's life and those who have received this life. There is nothing in Scripture to suggest that anyone in the LoF are alive. They are in a place described as the second DEATH. How do life and death occur at the same time?

Death is sin, nothing more, nothing less as scripture tells us so.

No, Scripture does not equate sin and death. We know that sin results in death. But they are not the same.

All are risen from the grave (Hades), some to eternal life with the Father and some an eternal life (existence) of being separated from the Father as for eternity they will have to endure that of the torments in the lake of fire.

If you had removed the parentheses around "existence" and removed "life" you would have had it correct. But a dead body exists in the grave, right? But, just because the dead body exists in the grave, would you call its existence "life"????

Do you believe we will be in new physical bodies when we enter the New Jerusalem?

Of course. I don't see any point here.

BTW, Jesus did not take all the sin of the world away when he died. If he did then we would be living in a sinless world and the last time I looked it is still a sinful world.

Wow. Really? So, which sins of which people did He miss?

Jesus was made the final blood sacrifice for us to atone for our sins as He now sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us before the Father, but that is another topic.

How does this support your idea that He did not take all the sin? It doesn't.

John the baptist was quoted as describing Jesus as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". Where do you see "less than all" sin? I don't.