Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

[JLB]

Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

First, let’s give some Biblical definitions to these two terms (Eternal Life and Second Death) since it seems that life = death isn't logical. Maybe the Biblical definitions differ somewhat:

1. Eternal Life =

knowing the only true God, The Father and Jesus Christ, whom The Father sent.

John 17:3 (LEB) Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.​

passing from death to Life through this belief/knowing

John 5:24 (LEB) Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 6:47 (LEB) Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.​

a special gift of belief that comes from the triune God; The Son gives because The Father sealed The Son and The Spirit for this designate purpose, a long time ago.

John 6:27 (LEB) Do not work for the food that perishes, but the food that remains to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For God the Father has set his seal on this one.”
Galatians 6:8 (LEB) … the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
Romans 2:7 (LEB) to those who… seek … immortality, eternal life
Titus 1:2 (LEB) in the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before eternal ages,​

is designated by God to be given to some people, not all (people do NOT have eternal life inherent from the 1st Adam or his descendants).

Acts 13:48 (LEB) … And all those who were designated for eternal life believed.
Matt 19:16 (LEB) And behold, someone came up to him and said, “Teacher, what good thing must I do so that I will have eternal life?”
John 4:14 (LEB) But whoever drinks of this water which I will give to him will never be thirsty for eternity, but the water which I will give to him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”​

a promised gift from God that’s as eternal and true as Jesus Christ is eternal and true.

Romans 6:23 (LEB) … the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 John 5:11(LEB) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 2:25 (LEB) And this is the promise which he himself promised us: eternal life.
Titus 1:2 (LEB) in the hope of eternal life which God, who does not lie, promised before eternal ages,​

Gosh, that’s a mouthful of a definition. It’s no wonder that the actual Biblical definition of “eternal life” can be (and was) summarized as John does with;

1. (Summary.) Eternal Life = The One True God (Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah)

1 John 5:20 (LEB) … Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.​

2. the Second Death =

Lake of Fire = Eternal Fire = Eternal Destruction = Eternal Punishment = the final/fearful/everlasting Judgment of God upon the accursed ones and their penalty away from the presence of the Lord imposed upon all those that do not have the gift of Eternal Life (see definition above) .​

Revelation 20:14 (LEB)… This is the second death—the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 (LEB) … the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 25:41(LEB) Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (LEB) who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,​

So using these definitions (hold on to your hat all those who have answered yes to the OP question) here’s the OP question re-phrased using the quite literal Biblical definitions I’ve provided above:

'Can The One True God exist away from the presence of the Lord?' No!

Which is why it’s a contradiction of terms to think that death = life in the first place either by their common sense definitions or the Biblical definitions. It’s an obvious contradiction of terms/definitions, Biblically speaking. So if a justified answer = Yes doesn't come from common sense or the Bible, where does it come from?

Death = the end of life : the time when someone or something dies
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/death

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Genesis 2:16-17


for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Did Adam die that day that he ate of the fruit?

I believe the Lord told the truth to Adam.

I believe Adam did die that day.

I believe he continued to die every day after that, until he actually died and was buried.

So, the question is: How long does it take for a spirit to die?


JLB

 

[chessman]

Genesis 2:16-17
for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Did Adam die that day that he ate of the fruit?

JLB

Yes.

I believe the Lord told the truth to Adam.
I believe Adam did die that day
JLB

Me too.

I believe he continued to die every day after that, until he actually died and was buried.

JLB

I don't.

Huh??? He died every day until he actually died...????

So, the question is: How long does it take for a spirit to die?

JLB

Who's question? I don't have that question, nor is it the question that the OP poses. You seem confused by your believing that Adam "died every day until he actually died". No wonder you've got questions about a spirit. Best just to stick with the facts as they are presented Biblically.

 

[Sinthesis]

So what are you affirming with the quotation of this verse?

Mar 9:44
The idea is that if these tormenting worms both never die and yet are in Gehenna(scripturally true), which is the lake of fire, then there are eternally alive worms in the second death. Thus eternal life can exist in the second death.
It's just affirming a trick answer to a trick question.

 

[JLB]

Yes.


Me too.

I don't.

Huh??? He died every day until he actually died...????
Who's question? I don't have that question, nor is it the question that the OP poses. You seem confused by your believing that Adam "died every day until he actually died". No wonder you've got questions about a spirit. Best just to stick with the facts as they are presented Biblically.

If you believe Adam, God's son, died that day, yet he continued to exist, then you have the sufficient understanding to know how someone can continue to exist in the second death.

What is it that sustains the devil forever in the lake of fire, if not eternal life?



JLB

 

[chessman]

If you believe Adam, God's son, died that day, yet he continued to exist, then you have the sufficient understanding to know how someone can continue to exist in the second death.

JLB

To the best of my knowledge I provided the Biblical definitions of Eternal Life and The Second Death, then used those definitions to answer the OP question with a NO. You seem to desire to answer the OP question yes. I have no such desire. But I followed your example of Adam up to the point that it became illogical with your statement "I believe he continued to die every day after that, until he actually died and was buried.
JLB"

Which sounds more like what the second death is not, than what the Biblical description is of it.

Is it your opinion that the time Adam spent on Earth after he sinned is a better definition of The Second Death than the one I posted?

What is it that sustains the devil forever in the lake of fire, if not eternal life?

JLB

It's a complex question (multiple questions that 1) assumes The Devil is sustained forever plus 2) the Devil is an example of a human's Second Death) then asks "What is it that sustains" those two assumptions. It's too far off topic and assuming for my tasted right now.

Can you answer the question above as to whether you think Adam's time on Earth after he sinned is a picture of The Second Death or not? Depending on your answer it might lead somewhere to a better definition to the one I posted with Scriptural proof or it might lead nowhere.

 

[JLB]

To the best of my knowledge I provided the Biblical definitions of Eternal Life and The Second Death, then used those definitions to answer the OP question with a NO. You seem to desire to answer the OP question yes. I have no such desire. But I followed your example of Adam up to the point that it became illogical with your statement "I believe he continued to die every day after that, until he actually died and was buried.
JLB"

Which sounds more like what the second death is not, than what the Biblical description is of it.

Is it your opinion that the time Adam spent on Earth after he sinned is a better definition of The Second Death than the one I posted?



It's a complex question (multiple questions that 1) assumes The Devil is sustained forever plus 2) the Devil is an example of a human's Second Death) then asks "What is it that sustains" those two assumptions. It's too far off topic and assuming for my tasted right now.

Can you answer the question above as to whether you think Adam's time on Earth after he sinned is a picture of The Second Death or not? Depending on your answer it might lead somewhere to a better definition to the one I posted with Scriptural proof or it might lead nowhere.

If you will answer my question that comes directly from the OP, then I will answer your's.


What is it that sustains the devil to exist forever in the lake of fire, if not eternal life?


JLB

 

[chessman]

If you will answer my question that comes directly from the OP, then I will answer your's.


What is it that sustains the devil to exist forever in the lake of fire, if not eternal life?


JLB

Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

This is a philosophical, not theological, question. The Bible speaks of both eternal life (Rom 6:23), and the second death (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8) which is also called the Lake of Fire (Rev 9:20, 20:10, 14, 15). The LoF is also described as the "eternal fire" (Matt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

Therefore, if one answers no, please explain why not. If one answers yes, please explain why it can or does.

Thanks.

You are mistaken. Your question does not come directly from the OP. And as I pointed out. Your 'question' is not a logical question. It's three questions in one (a complex question) akin to "When did you stop beating your wife" only worse. You have two assumed answers within yours. Neither of which have anything to do with the OP question.

Now you mentioning Adam obviously assumes Adam is somehow an example of The Second Death. How so?

 

[JLB]

You are mistaken. Your question does not come directly from the OP. And as I pointed out. Your 'question' is not a logical question. It's three questions in one (a complex question) akin to "When did you stop beating your wife" only worse. You have two assumed answers within yours. Neither of which have anything to do with the OP question.

Now you mentioning Adam obviously assumes Adam is somehow an example of The Second Death. How so?

The OP concerns the second death.

Specifically: CAN ETERNAL LIFE EXIST IN THE SECOND DEATH?

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:10-14


Being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death...

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Both the devil and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire.

What is it that sustains the false prophet and the devil in the lake of fire, which is the second death, so they they continue to exist there FOREVER AND EVER, if it's not eternal life?

How can someone continue to exist FOREVER AND EVER, unless they have eternal life?


JLB

 

[chessman]

The OP concerns the second death.

JLB

Yes it does. Which is why I defined it Biblically.

Specifically: CAN ETERNAL LIFE EXIST IN THE SECOND DEATH?

JLB

yes, which is why I defined Eternal Life Biblically.

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the ...

JLB

I'm confused. Can you show that the Devil has been given Eternal Life? No! (Or Adam had the Second Death?) I assume you know what Eternal Life is, since I posted it's definition. But here it is again:

1 John 4:2-3 And this is the testimony: that God has given us [not The Devil] eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. [like The Devil and those with him] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

[The Devil doesn't believe, thus had NOT been given Eternal Life]​

For your train of thought to lead anywhere, you'd need to show The Devil has been given Eternal Life. You can't do that. Why?

1 John 5:11-13 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. ​

The Devil DOES NOT confess Jesus is from God. He preaches directly against that testimony (anti-Christ).

Being cast into the lake of fire is the second death.

JLB

okay, fair enough. I even included that fact in my definition of Second Death. Can you show that The Devil takes the Biblical definition of Eternal Life with him there? No! You are inserting your definition of Eternal Life onto The Devil, not the Biblical definition.

What is it that sustains the false prophet and the devil in the lake of fire, which is the second death, so they they continue to exist there FOREVER AND EVER, ...

JLB

I have no idea. But I know it's not Eternal Life. Why? Because:

1 John 5:20 (LEB) … Jesus Christ.This one is the true God and eternal life.​

And the LoF is, by definition, separation/departure from Jesus Christ (Eternal Life).

 

[Kathi]

Don't you guys get tired?

 

[chessman]

Don't you guys get tired?

No.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, so that you may approve what is the good and well-pleasing and perfect will of God. ​

 

[JLB]

Chessman said -

Yes it does. Which is why I defined it Biblically.

So why do you say -
Your question does not come directly from the OP.


Question:

What is it that sustains the false prophet and the devil in the lake of fire, which is the second death, so they they continue to exist there FOREVER AND EVER, if it's not eternal life?

Chessman said -

I have no idea. But I know it's not Eternal Life. Why? Because:
1 John 5:20 (LEB) … Jesus Christ.This one is the true God and eternal life.

And the LoF is, by definition, separation/departure from Jesus Christ (Eternal Life).

Good answer!

You have no idea!

Which means you don't really know if it is eternal life or not!



Thanks for your honesty.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I've read your post's, and see no scripture that says something other than eternal life sustains the devil to exist forever in the lake of fire.

Please show any verse that says that "eternal life" sustains anyone in the LoF.

Please just name for us what it is that's sustains the devil in the lake of fire, so that he can remain in that place forever.

Where does the Bible ever speak of eternal life, except for those who have believed in Christ? Your question is absurd.

Please just show this supposed scripture that you posted, that proves the devil can exist in the lake of fire forever, apart from eternal life.JLB

Instead, please show any verse that describes anyone other than a believer in Jesus Christ who possesses eternal life.

Hint: there aren't any. Your premise is absurd.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you will answer my question that comes directly from the OP, then I will answer your's.


What is it that sustains the devil to exist forever in the lake of fire, if not eternal life?


JLB

This is ridiculous. The point is that nothing is being "sustained" in the second death. They are forever separated from God. They are eternally dead. But nothing is required to "sustain" eternal death.

Maybe you could say that they are sustained by eternal separation from God. But that's sure NOT life. Not in any way, shape, or form.

Why do you think life = death? Where is your evidence.

 

[FreeGrace]

How can someone continue to exist FOREVER AND EVER, unless they have eternal life?JLB

If they had LIFE, they would not be DEAD. There is no life in the second death. Only death. Got it?

Clearly, you are not understanding the meaning of "death" here.

 

[JLB]

Please show any verse that says that "eternal life" sustains anyone in the LoF.


Where does the Bible ever speak of eternal life, except for those who have believed in Christ? Your question is absurd.


Instead, please show any verse that describes anyone other than a believer in Jesus Christ who possesses eternal life.

Hint: there aren't any. Your premise is absurd.

What is it that sustains the false prophet and the devil in the lake of fire, which is the second death, so they they continue to exist there FOREVER AND EVER, if it's not eternal life?


I'm still waiting for the scripture that shows us, it is definitely not eternal life that enables those who are cast into the lake of fire to exist forever and ever.

Scripture!

Ive heard all your insults and opinions, what I am waiting for is the scripture that will clear up this matter of eternally existing in the lake of fire forever and ever.

How can these who are cast into the lake of fire, continue to exist forever and ever?

Who gives them this ability?


JLB

 

[chessman]

I have no idea. But I know it's not Eternal Life. Why? Because:

1 John 5:20 (LEB) … Jesus Christ.This one is the true God and eternal life.​

Good answer!

You have no idea!

Which means you don't really know if it is eternal life or not!

Thanks for your honesty.

JLB

Thanks for your dishonest reply. You read what you want to read and ignore the rest.

So why do you say -
Your question does not come directly from the OP.

JLB

For the third time, because The Devil has about as much to do with the gift of God's Eternal Life as darkness does with light or lies with truth or life with death.

 

[WIP]

Don't you guys get tired?

No.

Romans 12:2 And do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, so that you may approve what is the good and well-pleasing and perfect will of God. ​

Yes. 2

 

[JLB]

Thanks for your dishonest reply. You read what you want to read and ignore the rest.

For the third time, because The Devil has about as much to do with the gift of God's Eternal Life as darkness does with light or lies with truth or life with death.

Please consider that Satan used to be called Lucifer.

As an angel Satan is/was a son of God.

The angels were created by God who is the Father of spirits.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Thanks for your dishonest reply. You read what you want to read and ignore the rest.

For the third time, because The Devil has about as much to do with the gift of God's Eternal Life as darkness does with light or lies with truth or life with death.

I hear your opinion, and I hear your insults, what I don't hear is the scripture that teaches us something other than eternal life sustains and enables those who are in the lake of fire to continue to exist forever and ever.

As least give me your best guess as to what it is or who it is that causes those who are cast into the lake of fire forever and ever to continue to exist.


JLB