Can Obedience To God Earn Salvation?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yet Paul excluded works from drawing out grace: "In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." Rom 11:5-6

The basic problem is that work-for-wages, even supererogation of works, isn't compatible with grace. Works cannot be done in order to accomplish grace.

Once again, the type of work Paul speaks of in Rom 11:6 are works of merit one does to try and earn salvation and not obedience. If one could merit his salvation by keeping God's law perfectly, then his salvation would not be of grace but of debt.

"There is no grace when a man merits salvation. Works by which a man merits justification and commands which one must obey to be saved are distinct matters. It is unfortunate that many cannot, or will not, see this distinction. Because of this, they conclude that a sinner must do nothing in order to be saved; but a man has no real understanding of either works or grace if he thinks that a sinner's complying with the terms of salvation causes him to merit it. Many things are of grace, and are yet conditional. Is anyone so simple as to think that Naaman's healing from leprosy was any less a matter of grace because he had to dip seven times in the Jordan river? Is any so blind that he cannot see that Jesus' giving sight to the man born blind was any less of grace because he was required to wash in the pool of Siloam?" R L Whiteside.

It can be seen in the immediate context Paul did not rule out obedience. In verse 4 Paul shows from OT times how 7,000 obeyed by not bowing to Baal. Paul then says "in this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace". Here Paul is saying in this present Christian dispensation there is a remnant that obeyed the gospel, that remenant of Jews that obeyed the gospel in Acts 2. So Paul shows from both the OT and NT obedience of a righteous remnant.

 

[heymikey80]

Once again, the type of work Paul speaks of in Rom 11:6 are works of merit one does to try and earn salvation and not obedience. If one could merit his salvation by keeping God's law perfectly, thenhe salvationwould not be of grace but of debt.

Romans 4:4 states that "one who works" it merits a wage: Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. It's a wage for the one who works.

That "works" is general. Work is due a wage.

That''s all "merit" is. It's what work deserves -- any work.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It's just got a slight problem. "Obedience" is work in English, but the word translated "obey" is not specifically referring to work. In fact the word translated "obey" is specified by Paul to mean the heart's response to God's command; not particularly any work that is actually performed.

Once again, the issue is heart-response, not the hand's action. Works, even obedient works, don't save.

The way these texts are constructed, too, it's the heart of faith that brings justification. Someone relying on God will hear His commands and respond submissively in his heart to them. But the action that results is not the point; rather it's the reliance on God that's the point.

Try translating "rely" into NT Greek, and then back again, and you'll see the point of what I'm saying.

This is simply not the case, just wishful thinking on the part of the faith only crowd.

For example in Rom 10:3 Paul said the Jews were lost for they would not submit to the righteousness of God. Those Jews would not (1)"confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead", v9, those Jews would not(2) "call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" v13, (3)"But they have not all obeyed the gospel", v16.

The Jews were lost for they:

1) would not believe and confess with the mouth. Belief is a work, soemthing done, Jn 6:27-29 as is confessing with the mouth.

2) the Jews would not call upon the name of the Lord. Calling on the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord has said. The Lord has said to be saved one must believe and confess with the mouth... "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? " Lk 46.

3) but the Jew had not all obeyed the gospel, v16. Obeyed is active voice, the Jews had not actively believed with the heart or confessed with the mouth.

 

[heymikey80]

It can be seen in the immediate context Paul did not rule out obedience.

The Greek word for "obey" is not directly related to the idea of "work". Obedience is submitting to an authority, works don't factor in to this idea except as a result of the cause of Greek's hupakouo .

The idea of work, "ergon", isn't there.

Y'know, Paul does mention good works in Romans 2:7

To them who by patient continuance in good works seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Rom 2:7

... which is very much what Paul is referring to in Romans 4:4:

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. Rom 4:4

Obviously Abraham would gain a wage of condemnation for evil works. So good works would be in view here.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 4:4 states that "one who works" it merits a wage: Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. It's a wage for the one who works.

That "works" is general. Work is due a wage.

That''s all "merit" is. It's what work deserves -- any work.

You assume Paul includes all works when he is not.

In Rom 4:4 Paul said the worker's "reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt".

The only way one's reward would be of debt and not grace is if one were able to keep God's law perfectly thereby be perfectly sinless. A sinless person does not need grace so he id works that earned his reward.

So when Paul said he that "worketh not" Paul was excluding works of merit the worker of v 4 does to earn his reward and NOT obedient works.

Abraham was one who "worketh not but believeth" means Abraham did not do works of merit to earn salvation but he had an obedient belief in God. So "worketh not" in no way excludes the obedient belief of Abraham, Heb 11:8.

Belief itself is a work, Jn 6:27-29. So if "worketh not" of verse 5 excluded ALL works then it would exclude the work of belief and you have created a contradiction. You have verse 5 saying, "to him that worketh not, but does the work of believing". You have one not working and working at the same time.

 

[heymikey80]

This is simply not the case, just wishful thinking on the part of the faith only crowd.

For example in Rom 10:3 Paul said the Jews were lost for they would not submit to the righteousness of God. Those Jews would not (1)"confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead", v9, those Jews would not(2) "call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" v13, (3)"But they have not all obeyed the gospel", v16.

The Jews were lost for they:

1) would not believe and confess with the mouth. Belief is a work, soemthing done, Jn 6:27-29 as is confessing with the mouth.

2) the Jews would not call upon the name of the Lord. Calling on the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord has said. The Lord has said to be saved one must believe and confess with the mouth... "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? " Lk 46.

3) but the Jew had not all obeyed the gospel, v16. Obeyed is active voice, the Jews had not actively believed with the heart or confessed with the mouth.

By this logic a mute convert is forever lost. This is practically speaking a contradiction. The mute can be saved. So to avoid the contradiction: we're just looking at a practical result of the heart change as a verbal calling out to God.

And what if someone silently prays a prayer, calling out to God? That's not a work either, in Paul's view.

It's awfully clear, once again: a heart change is not a work. It's simply not. What "ergon" is there in such a "work"? Would you pay for such a work? That's what Romans 4:4 describes as a work! When you go in and pay people $5 for every heart change people make in your church, then we'll discuss whether you can call it a work. Paul certainly didn't consider it a work. His examples prove it.

A worker doesn't get a wage for "just feeling that way." A worker gets a wage for doing work. That work Paul is talking about: that isn't a change of heart.

 

[heymikey80]

Belief itself is a work, Jn 6:27-29. So if "worketh not" of verse 5 excluded ALL works then it would exclude the work of belief and you have created a contradiction. You have verse 5 saying, "to him that worketh not, but does the work of believing". You have one not working and working at the same time.

It's a work of God, not a work of the person. Once again, when someone works on your behalf, it's you who owes them, not the reverse!

Ultimately, you're talking about what John said Jesus meant about this work as well. So let's address what Paul means by "work". It's pretty obvious Jesus doesn't mean "works of law".

 

[heymikey80]

Abraham was one who "worketh not but believeth" means Abraham did not do works of merit to earn salvation but he had an obedient belief in God. So "worketh not" in no way excludes the obedient belief of Abraham, Heb 11:8.

"In faith when called Abraham heeded [the call] to go out to a place he would receive as an inheritance, and he went out, not knowing where he was going." That's the construction -- and you think Abraham's heeding the call is essentially his action afterward, but it doesn't wash. Once again, the submission was part of a chain that resulted in his journey -- but it was his hearing and submitting to the call that the Apostle was focused on, not the effort of the work.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

By this logic a mute convert is forever lost. This is practically speaking a contradiction: so we're just looking at a practical result of the heart change.

It's awfully clear, once again: a heart change is not a work. It's simply not. What "ergon" is there in such a "work"? Would you pay for such a work? That's what Romans 4:4 describes as a work! When you go in and pay people $5 for every heart change people make in your church, then we'll discuss whether you can call it a work. Paul certainly didn't consider it a work. His examples prove it.

A worker doesn't get a wage for "just feeling that way." A worker gets a wage for doing work. That work Paul is talking about: that isn't a change of heart.

In Rom 10 Paul did not say the Jews were lost for they did not have some change of mind or were lost for they would not make some mental adjustment.

They were lost for they would not do the works of believing and confessing with the mouth. The would not call upon the name of the Lord. Calling upon the Lord is not simply a mental activity but an active doing of what the Lord has said to do.

---------------------------------------------------

If you were to earn your salvation, then the ONLY way for you to do that would be working to keep God's law perfectly. By being perfectly sinless you would not need grace so your reward is of debt, it would be something owed to you.

But you say 'I cannot be perfectly sinless'. So your sinning rules out you earning salvation so your salvation then must be of grace and not of debt. So you have an obedient beleif in God. Even though you sin your obedience to God will cover those short-comings. Even though you obey you are still an "unprofitable sevant" who was doing only your duty, Lk 17:10, and in no way does your imperfect obedience ever earn your salvation. So it is a false argument to say one is trying to earn his salvation by being obedient for an obedient unprofitable sevant is still in need of grace to be saved.

 

[heymikey80]

In Rom 10 Paul did not say the Jews were lost for they did not have some change of mind or were lost for they would not make some mental adjustment.

Here, I object that's exactly what Paul is saying. The heart is the inside will of the person. "For if you believe with your heart" is what Paul said.

The outside in practical terms conforms with the inner heart, but the inner heart is exactly what Paul is referring to.

They were lost for they would not do the works of believing and confessing woith the mouth. The would not call upon the name of the Lord. Calling upon the Lord is not simply a mental activity but an active doing of what the Lord has said to do.

On the contrary Paul says this explicitly, not 15 verses earlier:

Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone Rom 9:31-32

So Paul's complaint is that the Jewish people tried to treat justification as if it were by works.

So I guess the question would be, "How can Paul be claiming that our justification is by works, when his complaint to the Jewish people is that it's not by works???"

And keep in mind -- no thoughtful Jewish person ever denied that faith and grace were needed parts of devotion to God. They just said works were also needed.

So what's the difference in Christianity, for Paul?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It's a work of God, not a work of the person. Once again, when someone works on your behalf, it's you who owes them, not the reverse!

Ultimately, you're talking about what John said Jesus meant about this work as well. So let's address what Paul means by "work". It's pretty obvious Jesus doesn't mean "works of law".

Belief is a work of God in that God is the genesis of the work and He gave that work to you to do.

In v27 Jesus told them to work for everlasting life. The people asked "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? "

They understood that Jesus was giving them a work to do, a work they were to do for everlasting life and that work Jesus gave them was to believe.

Again, when the people asked "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus did NOT tell them to refrain from doing works, He did not say "do no works for I have already done everything for you".

 

[heymikey80]

Belief is a work of God in that God is the genesis of the work and He gave that work to you to do.

In v27 Jesus told them to work for everlasting life. The people asked "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? "

They understood that Jesus was giving them a work to do, a work they were to do for everlasting life and that work Jesus gave them was to believe.

Again, when the people asked "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus did NOT tell them to refrain from doing works, He did not say "do no works for I have already done everything for you".

No, true to form Jesus subverted their question and taught what He thought was important, not what they thought was important.

"The work of God is this: that you believe the One He has sent." John 6:29

Who does the work here? God. Jesus cut the question right to the core: the issue wasn't what they were to do.

Even they caught this. Their next question was not, "Well how do we work to believe?" Their next question was, "Well then, what will You do for a sign for us to believe?" Even they realized they weren't doing the work, but expected Jesus to. I see no reason to call it their work, when even they realized it wasn't their work.

 

[heymikey80]

If you were to earn your salvation, then the ONLY way for you to do that would be working to keep God's law perfectly. By being perfectly sinless you would not need grace so your reward is of debt, it would be something owed to you.

But you say 'I cannot be perfectly sinless'. So your sinning rules out you earning salvation so your salvation then must be of grace and not of debt. So you have an obedient beleif in God. Even though you sin your obedience to God will cover those short-comings. Even though you obey you are still an "unprofitable sevant" who was doing only your duty, Lk 17:10, and in no way does your imperfect obedience ever earn your salvation. So it is a false argument to say one is trying to earn his salvation by being obedient for an obedient unprofitable sevant is still in need of grace to be saved.

Okay, so -- if the word "obey" were stripped of its contemporary English meaning of "behave", by which we were raised as kids, then Paul's point would shine through. It's a heart response, the heart recognizing that God is worthy of submission. Paul said so, even in the Romans 6 verse you quoted. It's a response of the heart. It's internal.

Yes, it does emerge in outward actions as well. Heart and hand are connected through this corrupted flesh. Paul has to address that problem as well in Romans 7. But Paul's issue in "obey" isn't work. It's worth.

 

[Eventide]

It's just got a slight problem. "Obedience" is work in English, but the word translated "obey" is not specifically referring to work. In fact the word translated "obey" is specified by Paul to mean the heart's response to God's command; not particularly any work that is actually performed.

Once again, the issue is heart-response, not the hand's action. Works, even obedient works, don't save.

The way these texts are constructed, too, it's the heart of faith that brings justification. Someone relying on God will hear His commands and respond submissively in his heart to them. But the action that results is not the point; rather it's the reliance on God that's the point.

Try translating "rely" into NT Greek, and then back again, and you'll see the point of what I'm saying.

I know mikey... God obeyed for you because you're ther elect... No repentance toward God or faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ... It's all taken care of unconditionally for some and not for all.

Heard the same song and dance a zillion times now.

 

[savedbygrace57]

So everyone earned savlation by Christ's one obedient act?

I did not post that, Christ's Obedience earned Salvation for those He died for, for by His act of obedience, the many He died for, shall be made Righteous, that is Salvation ! Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Please show me a scripture where God says obedience is idolatry.

Please show me a scripture where God says obedience is not Idolatry ! Also next time you ask a question ask it in the context that the statement in question was made in, or i will think you are dishonest !

 

[heymikey80]

It's just got a slight problem. "Obedience" is work in English, but the word translated "obey" is not specifically referring to work. In fact the word translated "obey" is specified by Paul to mean the heart's response to God's command; not particularly any work that is actually performed.

Once again, the issue is heart-response, not the hand's action. Works, even obedient works, don't save.

The way these texts are constructed, too, it's the heart of faith that brings justification. Someone relying on God will hear His commands and respond submissively in his heart to them. But the action that results is not the point; rather it's the reliance on God that's the point.

Try translating "rely" into NT Greek, and then back again, and you'll see the point of what I'm saying.

I know mikey... God obeyed for you because you're ther elect... No repentance toward God or faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ... It's all taken care of unconditionally for some and not for all.

Heard the same song and dance a zillion times now.

Wow, so thank you for confirming that Paul's use of Greek lines up perfectly with unconditional election! I mean, that's the nature of the argument you're responding to, isn't it? Otherwise the argument would be engaging in a red herring at best, e.g. "You also believe in sprites & fairies, so 2+2!=4".

But whoever's been telling you "a zillion times" that repentance is unnecessary: they're wrong. I'm sorry you haven't heard the substance of the view, that repentance comes from a heart changed by God -- but that's no reason to ascribe one person's view to another.

 

[Eventide]

The answer to this OP question is clearly NO..

And being obedient to our high calling in Christ Jesus (which is unto OBEDIENCE to all NATIONS) is not earning salvation.

This is why the Holy Spirit can say in Acts 5 that He gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey HIM... while making it clear that we are saved by grace through faith, and even that is not of ourselves.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No, true to form Jesus subverted their question and taught what He thought was important, not what they thought was important.

"The work of God is this: that you believe the One He has sent." John 6:29

Who does the work here? God. Jesus cut the question right to the core: the issue wasn't what they were to do.

Even they caught this. Their next question was not, "Well how do we work to believe?" Their next question was, "Well then, what will You do for a sign for us to believe?" Even they realized they weren't doing the work, but expected Jesus to. I see no reason to call it their work, when even they realized it wasn't their work.

The context of Jn 6 :27-29 does not say that God does the work of believing, God does not have to believe, man does. In Acts 16, the jailer was commanded to believe. The imperative shows it was incumbent upon the jailer to believe, that he had within him the ability to believe and given the responsibility to believe.

You point out yourself the people asked "Well how do we work to believe?"

They knew Jesus was giving them the work to do. In Jn 6:27 Jesus plainly said to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. That settles the issue that one must work for everlasting life and the people in v28 was asking what work it was THEY were to do to have everlasting life.

You post ""Well then, what will You do for a sign for us to believe?"

The last part of the verse says "for US to believe. They wanted Jesus to give them a sign so THEY could believe, not God believe for them.

If God believes for people then He would believe for all for it is His desire that all be saved. And it all are not saved then that would be because God failed to believe for some making them, forcing them into unbelievers and you have made God culpable for the lost. So belief is a work given to man that man is responsible for doing and if he does not believe then he is at fault and not God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Okay, so -- if the word "obey" were stripped of its contemporary English meaning of "behave", by which we were raised as kids, then Paul's point would shine through. It's a heart response, the heart recognizing that God is worthy of submission. Paul said so, even in the Romans 6 verse you quoted. It's a response of the heart. It's internal.

Yes, it does emerge in outward actions as well. Heart and hand are connected through this corrupted flesh. Paul has to address that problem as well in Romans 7. But Paul's issue in "obey" isn't work. It's worth.

Obey is not simply a heart response and nothing more, it is DOING what Christ said. Again in Rom 10:3 Paul said the Jews were lost for they would not submit. Submit implies doing, they would not do something. What was that something they wold not submit to and do? They would not believe with the heart and confess with the mouth. Both believing and confessing are works, something done. When one believes and confesses he is then calling on the name of the Lord. No one can call Jesus their "Lord" without having done those things which He has said.

In Rom 6 Paul said the Romans had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, being then made free from sin. That form of doctrine that the Romans obeyed was being batized, submitting to water baptism verses 3-5 is what they did, what they obeyed.